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Fuji's data seemed to be accurate since he played Tezuka. If the observation from the coaches only covers up to 6th court, then I'd doubt it. But it seemed like the Tezuka match was observed and taken into account as well. Fuji wouldn't hide his ability, I guess, against Tezuka. Unless what Kikumaru meant by 'why are you having this kind of match' means Fuji didn't play at his best. But I highly doubt that.
---------- Post added at 05:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:09 PM ----------
Btw, in Fuji's fanbook, it was shown in his daily routine that he trained hitting balls with his eyes closed. So maybe he mastered CE after Shiraishi.
Due to it being inaccurate or at times even contradicting, we tend to disregard the anime during discussions.
In other words, if there is nothing shown or said, I don't think Konomi gives the characters boosts and whatever their base stats are is what counts.
You can either count that as Marui's higher total being handicapped by his playstyle, or you could see it as him having improved more during the camp, I personally think it's the latter though.
Like I say before, lack of evidence is lack of evidence at best. It is not an evidence. I don't mind arguing, but you have to stop pretending that lack of evidence can count as an evidence. There is lack of evidence that Horio right now is weaker than Byoudoin. Can I take it that Horio is stronger than Byoudonin? Does that sound stupid? yes, it is meant to sound stupid. Lack of evidence simply means no evidence. It doesn't mean anything else, at all. I'll wait to read Marui match report before I say more, though, as that's possibly an evidence. Now, that'll be an actual evidence. But then again, if mountain court is unrecord as a whole, it still wouldn't show that there's difference in improvement between the two players. If both are them are record, though, we can finally compare the two. Well, I'll be waiting to read it regardless.
And well, and you stated, if "if there is nothing shown or said, I don't think Konomi gives the characters boosts and whatever their base stats are is what counts.". There is nothing shown so far that Marui stats improve more than Jackal ever since their last match. So, I don't think Konomi gives the characters boosts and whatever their base stats are is what counts. How I see it is that I just take the base stats for what they are, and you take it by assuming that there's an improvement.
So since Shuuji vs Oni match is off-scene, do you think they are playing with just their base stats? Nanjiroh vs #1 player of the world is off-scene. Do you think they are just playing with their base stats? I know characters in PoT are idiots, but they aren't that stupid.
Last edited by -Ken-; October 23, 2013 at 11:28 AM.
If you asked me about something like Oni vs Byoudouin though, then yes, I do believe that they didn't use any special moves outside of the instances we've seen them (i.e. one Pirates of the American, one 6 Ball Strike, one Snake Charmer of India, one Glowing Shot, and Kijin).
---------- Post added October 24, 2013 at 01:16 PM ---------- Previous post was October 23, 2013 at 06:33 PM ----------
Actually, something I just realized. With that logic, Niou never had to return Mach in the tiebreak of the first set, Ochi just didn't hit it against him. I know this sounds stupid, and it is, but that way that score at least makes sense. Also, it's not like that hasn't happened before: see Atobe vs Ryoma where Atobe stopped using Tannhauser for some of his service games despite Ryoma not being able to return it (and if he had kept using it, Atobe would have won the match 6-2 or so).
Atobe not using Tranhauser was significant, so it's shown on scene. It's not a normal play. In PoT, I think normal play, based on match that are shown on scene, involve players using their special move, which majority of the match is that way.
On Ochi, I'll be more lean to believe if his EVERY serve shown on scene is not Mach. Every serve that he serve that we are shown are Mach, however.
I guess Momoshiro off scene match means he doesn't need BJK to beat 1st stringer either. We're also skip out on countless Rai and Tezuka Phantom. But the should be using it even off scene. We can probably also guess that Niou is not using syncho anymore off scene or Inui is not using data or waterfall to beat Mitsuya either. Maybe Tachibana and Chitose is not using any move at all when his opponent is going syncho. There's probably countless more I can drag up. But there's hint in the manga that sometimes move are used even when they are shown, like Vanish on Kintarou. Not being on the scene does not guarantee that no special move are use. Same with Kabaji and Kawamura condition before the match end. That also suggest special move being used off scene. We might get more hint if Marui or Bunta move leave a mark on the opponent, but they don't leave a mark.
For me, there's high enough chance base on every match I've seen thus far in the series. Obviously, you say that this is not enough for you. But I can stick with 99% probability of being right.
Last edited by -Ken-; October 24, 2013 at 06:59 AM.
I don't object to something being hinted at being used at all, I've even said as much multiple times. The issue is when it's neither shown nor hinted at.
And Atobe not using Tannhauser wasn't shown at all, it was said that he used consecutive ones to take the lead when the score was tied at 4-4, implying that Ryoma wasn't able to return it.
Also, wouldn't Niou actually returning Mach count as one of those events you keep on mentioning? Why wasn't it shown?
Last edited by Kaoz; October 24, 2013 at 07:28 AM.
To be honest, Niou getting up from being down on the ground and hitting the ball at all should be special event enough to be shown, but it's not shown. We're just given the score. If Niou on the ground like that, I would think him answering any ball should have been shown. But it's not. Doesn't that mean there is some special moment skip off scene? I don't think it make a difference. Even if it's a normal ball, but Niou was never shown to to hit ANY ball on scene. This should be proof that there can be some wondrous things that are not shown as well.
I do think Marui using his move in EVERY single of on screen match we seen of him are proof enough that he used it against Jackal as well. I really take that as a hint. We only see 1 ball from him that's he's not using that play style. 1 ball. That's it. From the entire series. He even use it against random joke players in the beginning of SPoT, and he's actually playing Singles there. If there are absolutely no on screen match for Marui that he doesn't use any special move, well, I think that's enough of a hint for me. He used it when he's crushing Momoshiro/Kaidoh pair, and also when he's crushing random HS player. Marui certainly doesn't seem to be the type to hold back for me.
Last edited by -Ken-; October 24, 2013 at 10:40 AM.
Well, we were shown that he can't serve, multiple times even. On the other hand we were never shown that he can't return, so wouldn't that suggest that he can? It's not shown because it's completely normal for someone to be able to return a normal serve. And going from there, we are left with the idea that he can return serves, but can't return Mach. Yet he had to have returned Ochi's serves.
Like I said, it's really illogical and I'm in complete agreement there, but given what is shown and not shown, I believe Ochi not using Mach anymore to be the most likely explanation.
Also regarding your examples from the other matches which I skipped over last time, when Inui subs in for Renji, Mitsuya comments that Renji has entrusted Inui with the data, implying the use of Data Tennis. Before Momoshiro hits the BJK, Kenya yells at him, saying that no matter how often Momoshiro tries, Jack Knife won't work against Bakyuun. This could be read as Momoshiro having used JK off-screen as well, and following our theories, BJK really is only a variation of the JK.
Regarding WoK, I wouldn't say it's out of the question that they didn't hit Kamikakushi or Abare Dama, since Kamikakushi wasn't effective earlier in the match and Abare Dama probably can't be hit that easily, so Washio/Suzuki might have been able to seal it in Synchro.
Like I said, I'm completely fine with implications that moves were used, but in the cases of Ochi and Marui/Jackal, those implications just don't exist in the respective matches as far as I can tell.
EDIT: I guess something else in this context. What about the Tezuka Phantom Niou hit? Did he really do ~50 and did Ochi/Mouri find a way to break it half the time (or target Atobe on the points during which Niou didn't have to touch the ball and messed up at some point)? Or did he stop hitting them after 6-6 and started again at 47-48? I think there's an implication that he may have hit 50 or so, but it's still an interesting question to consider in my opinion.
Last edited by Kaoz; October 26, 2013 at 06:41 AM.