Remember Naruto vs Pain, when sage mode ran out he would have to run his ass off like a little Genin (ignoring the fact that he actually is a genin) to get away from Pain. He didn't stand the slightest chance. After Pain all he did was tame Kyuubi, get the orange shroud, become friends with Kyuubi, achieved Kyuubi transformation and a whole bunch of other Kyuubi related stuff. Oh and some Kyuubishroud-dependant Rasengan variations.
Take away Kyuubi (which is a possibility), and for the sake of argument take away sage mode, which only lasts a couple minutes anyway and it's not like he always has 2 kagebunshins meditating at toad mountain. What then remains of Naruto? I'm guessing the same guy who injured his arm by using some incomplete close range jutsu on Kakuzu, who was already quite worn out.
Last edited by Xrayz0r; April 23, 2013 at 09:22 AM.
Without Kyuubi? Look at his fight against Kiba or even Gaara, before the Kyuubi came into play. Naruto is pretty strong, even without his free powerup. While true that Naruto would have lost majority of his fights without help, he still proved he's good enough to last by himself. I mean, Neji has a kekkei genkai and is a genius, but even Naruto wasn't doing so bad.
I honestly think Naruto's skills are underrated and get knocked own far too much, but people mistake KYuubi as part of his own power when it's not.
Naruto is strong even without the Kyuubi. He was able to perfect the Sage Mode far further than Jiraiya did. Also, he's probably able to sustain it for longer periods of time. But as always, I don't see the point in measuring one's power when you take away his respective abilities. What's the point? Naruto isn't gonna fight without Kyuubi or Sage Mode, just like Sasuke won't fight without his Sharingan. And that goes for EVERY character in this manga.
But Naruto did fight without the Kyuubi at least once - against Kiba. After getting Sharingan, Sasuke has always fought with it. In most cases, he's started fights with Sharingan. It wasn't until the war Naruto started fights using Kyuubi's chakra.
Hard to measure something that changes in every chapter, for example there is no reason why naruto would have been hit by that spike from the ten tails, but he had to so that hinata can save him and neji could die, makes little sense really but thats how fiction works.
The point is to determine how strong Naruto is at his base level. Randomly taking away abilities would make no sense indeed, but Sage mode and Kyuubi shroud are not abilities. They're ability enhancers. And since one can potentially be taken away, the other reaching its time limit rather quickly, I'm sort of reluctant to consider them as Naruto's base stat. Unlike Jiraiya, Oro, Shodai, who are all kage level prior to any enhanced mode, Naruto needs it to be able to fight on that level. Without it he doesn't seem to be much stronger than a regular jounin, which is weird to me.Originally Posted by Roman
bruh, ive been saying this for the past year but every time i made a thread i go fanboy jumped and flamed
Naruto is nothing without his power ups. He still cant do a one handed rasengan, 3 years of training and all he got was a bigger rasengan, His taijutsu is sub par... honestly i feel like he gave narut all these freebies and power ups like sage mode and kyuubi so he can keep up with sasuke. when sauske was first re introduced i shit bricks and naruto could do nothing to compete with him. I know exactly how you feel about this.
He still uses the same strategies as part 1; shadow clone distraction, rasengan :l. he hasn't learned anything other than the rasengan and i hate the bullshit argument that ''its so strong why learn something else?''. why learn something else? because its a close combat move and he needs to get in to use it, what would he do against a long range fighter like sasori or deidara? he'd die.
He always has power ups to fill the gap of whatever he needs instead of training it for himself and in every one of his fights he always has someone save his ass while everyone else escapes by the skin of thier teeth. Naruto is a sub-par nin, i'd say he's only chunnin level honestly. just because he can do rasengan and sage mode doesnt mean anything, he just got lucky he had the right dna to allow him to handle these transformations due to the massive chakra levels and strong body he has.
The best thing for naruto would be having the kyuubi taken away. That way he can actually focus on himself rather than having the ultimate beast inside his stomach saving his ass whenever he's in trouble.
Also the argument that ''if naruto loses kyuubi than sasuke loses the sharigan'' is flawed. naruto already has the uzumaki blood which gives him a huge chakra reserve, sage mode capabilities and advanced healing; that alone is enough to counter the sharigan. naruto needs to work on his base skills, the fact that he's given power ups and a new rasengan every arc is lame and repetitive, on top of that where's that ''secret jutsu'' we heard so much about? I think kishi was just talking out his ass on that one to hype up naruto cause honestly its been like 350 chapters if it isn't here now it probably doesnt exist
I feel like there needs to be another time skip, hopefully madara wins and everything gets post apocalyptic once they escape the dream cause i'd like to see a new side of naruto, not this same bumbling idiot we've had since part 1, there's been little to no development with his character or his moveset, its old and its about time kishi invests properly in naruto and not always on sasuke
Last edited by Kid Chameleone; April 23, 2013 at 11:07 AM.
As much as I like the young Uzumaki, he's not as great as he currently is without Mr Kurama (which is understandable). I'm sorry but this is what has been illustrated to me thus far. For years I've always made the point that he should master himself, in base mode, before even thinking about spamming his other options.Think about it, it would make far better sense for Naruto to train in base mode in order to maximise the efficiency of Sage Mode. Sage Mode is practically limitless; the more you master oneself, the more effective it becomes. I've always maintained the idea that Sage Mode>Kyuubi Mode, of course imo.
I dare Naruto to fight Kakuzu one-on-one again in his base mode. I wish he could.
Also, the key word in your post is "seem". It's basically a pov because there isn't exact theory on how much one compares to another in this manga.
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In general, Naruto's base skills seem to have improved a lot. The sage training and kyubi training somehow also improved his strategic abilities, which should win him a fair number of battles... especially when someone important to him is at risk.
... Without a good reason to fight... I have little faith in Naruto, but I suspect he's still jounin level-ish.
Naruto has some strength without his modes. He was able to handle Karui and Omoi, even if they weren't aiming to actually hurt. And he outsped Sakura and Sai, for all that's worth. So he's not so much weak as... ordinary. He really doesn't have anything to propel himself above the mid-tier of ninjas. Doesn't help that he's never really fought anyone noteworthy without calling upon one of his modes.
physical strength? right now i would say he is the strongest shinobi in the history of the world
but when you look at edo madaras ocular abilities......and the fact that he has unlimited chaakra
he would probably still beat naruto in a fight, even though naruto is physically stronger
Let's not kid ourselves that he lasts even a minute in front of any decent ninja with his bait and switch KB jutsu and Rasangan legendary combo.
People saying that he shouldn't be underrated and they're right. Plot-no-jutsu should never be underrated. Without the kyuubi up until the arc before sage mode I think was somewhat skilled in taijutsu and had an immense chakra to produce many bunshins. I always thought naruto was the perfect specimen to learn a lot of jutsu considering his large chakra cabinet but all it was used for were bunshins. Currently without the kyuubi's help naruto has sage mode which strengthens him a lot and with the help of Kishi makes him really really strong. But to answer your question truthfully. Naruto is as strong as he is now with the kyuubi and possibly average at best without it if you take kishi's help away.