Not anymore. Shodai, Madara, Kyuubi Naruto, and Nagato are definitely above what used to be considered kage level. If let's say we got Genin, Chuunin, Jounin, elite Jounin, Kage, elite Kage. Then I would place Kakashi and non-enhanced Naruto at elite Jounin. I'm not as radical as Kid Chameleone, since he did finish off Kakuzu and Deva, but not without help and intel and the fact that both were rather battle worn, placing Naruto below kage level. Also Kakashi admitted that Naruto had surpassed him after finishing Kakuzu. Based on what we've actually seen, I'd say Kakashi was talking out of his ass, but I guess I'll just take his word for it.Originally Posted by Kay3795
Everybody has their point of view but the description of the fights you wrote are fairly exaggerated, which has nothing to do with point of view. Exaggeration is an exaggeration. Even though Naruto had help against Kakuzu, he executed FRS and beat him in his base form. I could go on, but the point is that he was always the victor. Being sometimes sloppy or confused doesn't mean he's necessarily weak. It's just his character. He'd be a perfect soldier if he had Itachi personality. But we can't have all, can we?
Powerups aren't cheaty. By that logic, every ability each shinobi has is a cheat. But it can't considered a cheat because it's a manga based on special abilities. I'm gonna finish that with that argument.
I agree with you that Naruto is a Jounin-level shinobi in his base status. Never denied that. But then again, it's still just speculation. He might be weaker or he might be stronger than a Jounin. We just tell the way it seems. Which is why I bolded it in the previous post.
Naruto on the other hand practically got everything thrown his way. Worst of all is without Kakashi he would never even have thought about something like infusing his elemental affinity into the Rasengan... so I don't think its fair to compare those two. Who's to say Minato wouldn't have managed to create Rasenshuriken if he lived at least into his forties?
Frog Fu is not limited to SM. Its a fighting style, yes obviously better in SM but considering what he did just after Pein to people attacking him with KATANAS even and i say he did whent up in taijutsu.
I actualy don't remember someone with a sharingan showing insane taijutsu. Even after Sasuke got Lee's taijutsu in part 1 he did nothing special.
Why? You have any feats from Asuma in taijutsu? I seriously don't remember anything.Quote:
If Nagato wasn't already panting and coughing up blood at that point then he could have simply used another Chibaku Tensei or Super ST to obliterate Naruto. But he already wasted his big shots thanks to other villagers, Sage Mode and Kyuubi.
CT? We all know its not instant. Naruto's punch would connect before Nagato can form the sphere in his hand, trow it up and the thing actualy start working.
Now as for Super ST Deva still needs his CD. If he just used a normal ST on Naruto he is out of luck.
Also what Nagato was doing is not relevant to what Deva was doing. Deva was fighting just fine.
Not to mention I'd actually argue his ST was also weakened at that point, considering what he did to the big frogs before and how his Edo-Tensei form later threw a swath of destruction throughout the forest.
For the frogs he had to move up before shoting it. The ST that hit Naruto was big enough. Seriously just look at this:
He did not scare them off. Itachi got "scared" because he did not whant that mission to be a completed. Kisame was asking Itachi WTF do we need to run? Then Itachi gave a complete BS reason. Asuming Itachi would have used that Amaterasu that he used on the wall on JMan's face Jman would be dead. JMan did not even know wtf that is.Quote:
He just summoned Bunta, the fight was nothing special. Tsunade was also there with another huge summon. This is not relevant. JMan just defened himself with some hair, poped Bunta, used a katon. Jman was not alone. Tsunade did most of the "defeating Oro" thing.Quote:
I don't belive he is a weakling. Thing is he did not show anything in base mode to put him up with any of the big boys.Quote:
It gives him other type of boosts. For instance prediction ability. Yes its not the same thing as SM but removing Naruto's SM or CM (or both) is no diferent then removing Sasuke's eyes.Quote:
With no info and Deva not going CT/super ST its hard to judge if he would win but yeah probably not. Thing is Deva had info on Naruto's abilities to so it evens out somewhat.Quote:
Considering what he did to Konoha and the fact that Nagato using Deva ability (CT) almost won over Itachi, Naruto and Bee i would go with a yes.Quote:
You would need a Jounin with some special skills to do so. Naruto used a TON of clones to be able to... I mean just look at this:Quote:
I don't see a problem with Naruto using SM to be up there with the rest. Raikage needs his Raiton shield for instance. Not a problem really...Quote:
You do unerstand that the 3'rd Raikage had some special body making him just about immune to damage? Also a perfect weapon in that Raiton move? Then INSANE speed? Seriously him ending up as useless vs that guy is not a bad thing. Raikage could fight some 10.000 ninja's man...
I mean removing Naruto's CM and SM and he does not have a sharingan to compensate. He does not have a Raiton armour, he does not have the 8 tails (Bee), he does not have a broken Kamui like Tobi, he does not have a rinnegan, mokuton, EMS and immortality like Madara. I mean remove the above things from users and put them really on BASE and how good are they really? Yes still good but HOW good? I mean those people have diferent Keke's. Take Raikage you used, perfect body and what not.
Now after he learned frog fu he did better even in base mode stoping Katanas with his bare hands and what not (just after he saved Konoha).
Naruto needed that time (with things you listed) to form the tactic he used vs Danzo to win. Asuming he would have done that off the bat he would have won with no Kurama, SM or anything.Quote:
The only valid thing is the info. Thing is Deva also had info on Naruto.
I said DEVA and not PEIN. He obviously can't beat Pein in base. He can't beat Pein even in SM (fair fight).Quote:
He obviously had a lot of advantages. Not stating he did not. What i am stating is that if Naruto would have had a 1vs1 with Deva and he would have used that tactic off the bat he would have won. Well aside for Deva using Super ST off the bat but that would be absurd.Quote:
Exacly. I am not trying to pass him as a master of taijutsu or a beast in base. He is obviously not but he is not as worse as some people belive.Quote:
Again i did not say WIN. I said he could fight it. Yes he had help granted but he could fight it and make Kurama go Oo at his power. His fight there is a clear feat of his power even if he needed help to do so.Quote:
I mean would you remove Sasuke's ability to dodge Bee's fastest attack because he was saved from death before that happened?
And there is no reason to belive he did not regen it back. I can show you a ton of panels with Kurama looking the same(as people can do the oposite and show it smaller) but not going to get into this again.Quote:
I asure you Naruto started going SM after the conversation was OVER. Going into SM takes concentration dude. You can't comunitate with Bee like that and go into SM at the same time. It takes concentration and what not to enter SM.Quote:
Fast enough yes. Summon Bunta, summon 100 clones... ETC. I asure you he would have no problem finding those 3 seconds or so to jump into SM.Quote:
He was doing "well" only after he used the sharingan to trail Haku. Go and have another look at that fight. What Haku was doing outside the mirros is not really relevant.Quote:
Again Sasuke himself made it clear he was inferior. I mean would you put Sasuke back then above Naruto? I mean who lost to Gaara (completly) and who won? Ask yourself that..Quote:
Sasuke can't posibly do shit to Bunta.
Then after Sasuke noticed the damage done to that water thing what did he say/do? Seriously...
I did not say just base Naruto...I would not compare base Naruto to Sharingan Sasuke.Quote:
Eh no. Look at Hashirama vs Madara. Look at how Naruto is NOW.Quote:
He gains Hirashin, he gains Rinnegan (somehow), he gains a new version of super Rasengan... I asure you Kishi can find something.Quote:
Kakashi handed Naruto the knowledge. But what is knowledge without throwing it into the creation? Nothing. Kakashi threw him an idea, but you had to have the ability to make that idea into deed. Which is what Naruto did.
We don't know if Minato could do it, but one reason as to why he wouldn't be able to do it is chakra capacity because of which a lot of Kagebunshins are created in order to finalize the technique.
One Kagebunshin would be enough.
Naruto needs two because he already uses a clone just to form the regular Rasengan. Now... considering even Hiruzen geezer could do two Kagebunshins I don't see any reason why Minato would lack the means to accomplish what Naruto did, given enough time to make up for the ~1000 Kagebunshin Training cheat.
And even if it took Minato 3 years to develop it and Naruto just a week to learn it, I think Minato deserves a lot more credit here then Naruto. Comming up with something new on your own and mastering it is much harder then being teached. Or do you think I deserve the same amount of credit as the guy who invented the car, just for learning how to drive said car in a week? Obviously not.
Besides, like I said, Minato had duties... Naruto is basically unemployed and could spent all the time he wants on training... heck people even specifically come to him to offer training.
If Naruto didn't have people basically telling him now you'll do this and now you'll do that, then his greatest achievements would have been sexy no jutsu and harem no jutsu. Which admittedly is the reason why I don't like him as a character. No other shounen main-dumbass-hero is as extremely dependent on others as Naruto.
Last edited by LnDRash; April 24, 2013 at 09:52 AM.
2. yeah, he simply added another hand. not much thinking involved actually. its so basic that it makes sense only an idiot like naruto could solve it, and you make it seem like he's the only one who would've ever solved it. minato or kakashi would've gotten it eventaully, cant blame them for having an iq over 50 and taking a complex jutsu and NOT turning it into a basic move.
its funny cause you say our arguments are idiotic yet you can only come up with 2 that that can be dispelled easily. naruto is a garbage ninja. compared to the jounin and the other nin shown in the series naruto is a wreck. the only reason he wins is because his fights get dumbed down for him. he cant even win a fight without being saved when even saukra and chiyo managed to kill sasori without support. he has the kyuubi and still gets his ass kicked. naruto is pathetic. im just waiting for the kage to come in, i hope they all have their own form of sage mode or some secret moves that havent been shown yet, especially minato, because they actually have skills to show and they earned their positions
naruto is too basic, even when hes in his power ups he still does a bait and switch rasegan. if he ever came at me with a rasengan i'd grab his wrist and cut his arm off. WHAT THEN!?
If Kakashi gave the idea to Sasuke or ANY other character, they wouldn't be able to do it. Which is, AGAIN, why Naruto is the only one who could do it. This is basically everything I need to backup my arguments.
Again with the cheats. Okay, Sharingan is a cheat as well. Shikamaru's Kagemane is a cheat as well. Each respective jutsu or ability of any character is a cheat as well. I can play ball like that too.
Deva didn't have info on Naruto, he was slowly learning the info. The only info he had was not to underestimate Naruto. Throughout the fight Naruto was told information that allowed him to fight accordingly, whether switching to frog fu against Hungry Ghost or knowing to take out Naraku or knowing about Deva's time limit. At the end, what defeated Deva was the info on his 5-second cooldown time, where Naruto threw himself to hit Deva as quickly as possible. Deva lost because he assumed he'd get his power back in time.
Why mention Deva though? That's one body out of the seven used by Nagato, not even living. Even then, Deva would likely win because his power is much better.Quote:
What tactic? Sage Mode tactic? I doubt it, Deva could just push Naruto away or even pull him in, throw him to the ground, and pin him with the chakra rods, making Naruto lose Sage Mode because of the chakra being pumped into him.Quote:
He could fight it because of help as well. Though, to be fair, if he wasn't going for the requirement, he would have done much better.Quote:
... that's different. Sasuke dodged Bee's attack on his own. If he beat Bee, it was because of help. It's not like Karin or Suigetsu pushed Sasuke out of the way.
No you can't. I've seen your panels, and they've proven nothing.Quote:
As you say, proof. Naruto didn't say he was gonna go into Sage Mode after he was finished talking, he didn't give any indication at all.Quote:
You can concentrate and talk at the same time. Naruto was able to get into Sage Mode while moving, even though he failed. All Naruto needs to do is take in natural energy and balance his chakra, which could be like a second nature to him because of experience.
The clones might help, but Bunta won't help. It won't be fast enough against people like Deva, Sasuke, and Madara. Hell, Sasuke can summon Susano'o and use the arrows to target the area where Naruto could be, or Madara can find the real Naruto and take him out. Deva can just push the clones and real Naruto away and make it impossible for him to get into Sage Mode.Quote:
Bunta is irrelevant here unless Naruto's fighting Animal Realm or anyone who only fights with summons. Bunta can't hit small ninjas. He'd be useless for the most part.
he was doing well even before that, considering he was dodging most needles from reaching his vital spots. He was also doing better throughout the fight. Sasuke did much better than Naruto without Sharingan.Quote:
No, it is relevant. Just because it doesn't support your thoughts doesn't make it irrelevant. Haku was praised as a fast genius, but Sasuke was able to keep up and even push Haku back. It wasn't until Haku used his kekkei genkai that he gained an advantage, and even then he was failing to take out Sasuke, needing Naruto to get Sasuke into a trap to take him out. While Sasuke had no advantage throughout the fight and was on defensive, he still did better.
In those two fights he basically proved he was better and superior to Naruto.
He thought he was inferior, and it's still an opinion, not a fact. Naruto needed the Kyuubi's chakra to summon Bunta, which is the only thing that saved him. I'd still put Sasuke above Naruto unless Naruto could summon Bunta with his own chakra, and Bunta could hit Sasuke. Sasuke failing to beat Gaara where Naruto succeeded doesn't mean he's weaker than Naruto. Naruto had more chakra, Kyuubi, and summons to help him. Sasuke used up more than one or two chidori and was inflicted with the Cursed Seal. He still did better against normal Gaara than Naruto would have hoped to ever done, actually makin Gaara panic.Quote:
Actually, Sasuke can. A lot of characters can.
Yeah, so? Rasengan is a better attack than chidori. So? But they work differently. Look at how chidori damaged the water tower, and compare it to how rasengan damaged the water tower. Then, look at how chidori and rasengan always evened each other out. You're comparing apples to oranges.
Because base Naruto is very much inferior to Sharingan Sasuke.Quote:
People in this manga have said something to be impossible only to be proven wrong so many times now...
To learn Elemental Manipulation was said to take what? Years? Sasuke did it in a week or so, maybe month... no idea, to lazy to check.
Those time expectations are meant for your regular run of the mill fodder jounin, not exceptional geniuses like Minato, so I still don't see any solid evidence as for why it would have been impossible for someone like Minato to learn that technique given enough time.
And maybe cheat wasn't the right choice of words, lets call it shortcut instead. See, I wouldn't have any trouble acknowledging Kagebunshin Training as an achievement on Naruto's part... I'd actually call it pretty damn clever and an excellent exploit of his abilities. But sadly thats once again something he never would have come up with on his own and Kakashi had to do all the thinking for him.
His extreme dependency on others is what really diminishes most of Naruto's achievements. It feels like he really can't do anything on his own.
you can always go back to the battle with neji in the chuunin exams or his teamwork with sasuke against zabuza both before he had control over his monstrous chaakra
i agree that if the chaakra were even he would struggle against someone like kakashi
but with his chaakra being so much higher than everyone elses, i honestly dont think anyone could beat him, itachi would stand the best chance just because he could out wit him and would have no need to fight him strength vs strength