They don't have as much of a contact with the author, from the looks of it. Otherwise I doubt Kishi would have let Deva be hammered like a nail. And yes, they would do it for the lulz or whatnot - it's their own interpretation on manga, not what's actual.
When did he use Kyuubi's chakra without slits? Or slits without Kyuubi's chakra? All we're doing is assuming on teh latter. But how does Naruto's slit eyes being blue mean he's not using Kyuubi's chakra?Quote:
Naruto himself is to say that. If he could summon Bunta, he'd have done so against Orochimaru but instead, Kichi came out... again. Naruto couldn't even summon a bigger frog. I don't care waht Naruto says, I care what he shows. His classmates said he was an idiot, but Naruto showed he was not an idiot.
Depends on how much chakra he gets. Whenever Naruto gets chakra shroud, the whiskers become more prominent. But answer this: why would he get slits in his eyes if he wasn't using Kyuubi's chakra? That's like Naruto getting Sage eyes without using Sage Mode....
Until proven otherwise, Naruto can't summon a boss toad on his own. At best, he could summon Kichi, but he has not shown the ability to summon boss toads without using Kyuubi's chakra.
They also show that Naruto had Kyuubi shroud. They also don't show that Naruto's eyes randomly looks like slits whenever he's in a fight without needing Kyuubi's chakra.Quote:
But you didn't show me that he randomly gets slits without needing Kyuubi's chakra. All you showed/are showing is that he doesn't always get slits when he uses Kyuubi's chakra. Does not disprove me in any way. And we don't need a hint when his eyes show it. Why else would Kishi show his eyes turnign into slits? Using anime has no merits other than in anime-only discussion because they're not always canon.Quote:
What if Kyuubi gave Naruto enough chakra without him asking for it to summon Bunta? But then Naruto needed chakra again and had to ask the Kyuubi this time? Kyuubi has given Naruto chakra before without permission.
how is my argument illogical? Because you don't agree with it and want to believe that Naruto used his own chakra, which he admitted he barely had any? All you proved was that Naruto's eyes can stay normal when he uses Kyuubi's chakra, but you haven't proven that his eyes can go slits without using Kyuubi's chakra. Why the hell would his eyes go slits randomly in a fight if he wasn't using Kyuubi's chakra?
And considering teh fact that Naruto couldn't summon Bunta when he and Jiraiya confronted Orochimaru and Kabuto, it's even harder to believe that he wasn't using Kyuubi's chakra to summon Bunta against Gaara. Before you say Jiraiya couldn't either, he was drugged while Naruto was healthy, at worst little exhausted due to training. Now, if he was able to summon Bunta or a bigger frog than Kichi, THEN maybe I would consider him being able to summon Bunta on his own. Naruto has shown throughout the manga that he's unable to summon without Kyuubi's chakra.
If that's what you want to believe.Quote:
Debatable, but at least 5% if not 10-20 was Kyuubi's power as well.Quote:
Though now, I wanna see what happens when you mix FRS with sand. Sandstorm no jutsu?
I don't think Naruto's SM speed would actually be an issue. Without that being an issue, his Frog-Kata isn't dangerous either.
Frog-kata doesn't need speed to be dangerous, just close proximity.
this and that was pre-time skip. Frog-kata needs to be right up there in melee range. Let's not pretend like it extends the range of his attack in any significant way. Hell, if Naruto can get close enough for Frog Katas, he might as well just use rasengan. Naruto has no chance to even get close to Gaara.
Last edited by chilibun; May 11, 2013 at 08:09 PM.
The fact that none of the Paths saw Naruto coming despite him being behind Tsunade, in front of six pairs of Rinnegan, says a lot though.
It is significant though. Even if he and Raikage are at same speed, if Naruto is close to Raikage then he can use frog kata to deal some damage to Raikage. Natural Energy could do a better job of causing damage than Naruto's own taijutsu.
Nah. Pein managed to block SM Jiraiya's punch effortlessly by watching him with their shared vision. This didn't happen with Naruto because while all the Pein's were looking at Tsunade, Naruto jumped into the air ABOVE where they were looking.Originally Posted by M3J
Jiraiya wasn't bothering to be fast though. It's weird if the Paths didn't notice any kind of movement from Naruto even if he was a small speck at that distance....
I don't know why Raikage was brought into this since we were talking about Gaara, but yes Frog Kata will hit the Raikage even if he dodges it, but nothing suggest Frog Kata's are any more damaging than a regular SM punch, in which case, Raikage can tank it all day long. I'm assuming this is the 3rd Raikage we are talking about because Ee is much faster than both his father and SM Naruto. Ee will straight up chop Naruto's head off if he is going full speed. Come to think of it, the 3rd Raikage is so physically powerful that he wouldn't even bother dodging. He'd headbutt Naruto's fist and break your hand. So, yea, frog kata isn't going to be effective against either Raikages.
Last edited by chilibun; May 11, 2013 at 09:26 PM.
What reason is there to believe that Jiraiya wasn't trying to be fast? He powered up to a mode that enhances his speed and strength. That gives me the idea that he well... wanted to either overpower Pein, or outpace Pein.Originally Posted by M3J
Pain didn't have the edge on Sage Mode Naruto if I recall, not until Deva's power came back into play.
Fourth Raikage was brought in because of his speed. Odd thing is though that frog kata punch was enough to take Hungry Ghost out until he was healed by Naraku Path's power. I'm guessing frog kata is more like Gentle Fist? Though I'm really basing that on the effect of Sage Mode Naruto's slap when he was tryin to get the chakra rod out of the monkey bijuu (I refuse to call him Son or any bijuu by their names, because seriously, Kurama? LAME.).
Dunno, probably because he couldn't be fast without having to compensate for something? He didn't show increased speed until his appearance changed and he tried to rasengan Hungry Ghost. With the speed he showed in doin that, one would assume he can be pretty fast. Especially when he kicked Animal Realm's eyes out of nowhere when it attacked him.
Ee is heads and shoulders above SM Naruto in speed. Pointless to even compare the two. Frog Kata destroyed Fat Pain because Pain bodies were never shown to be durable to begin with. Even the most durable one Asura (assuming he is because of being an armored robot and all) has been destroyed rasengans, raikiris, and Chouji Big Fist. Even little Konohamuru took one out. And NO, Frog Kata has never been said or implied that it can damage anything like Jyuuken. All it did against the rods is smacked it hard enough to physically knock it out like smacking the back of a bottle. Its just a matter or transferring momentum and energy like the Newton's cradle.
Jiraiya kicked off the wall for one direct strike. That isn't the speed he can generally move in or use. And even then, Pain had no problem reacting to it. This is like giving Sasuke or Kakashi like 20 meters to prepare a linear chidori stab, which is faster than they typically move in general battle. I think Jiraiya was mostly stationary when he kicked Animal Realm in the face, and even then Animal realm kinda just lunged at him like an idiot. Plus its Animal Realm! Who even cares. All he does is summon shit and try to look pretty.
Last edited by chilibun; May 12, 2013 at 12:55 AM.
And yet, the dude was literally on ropes. The second Asura appeared, he was unceremoniously hacked. He was well out of his league here. To get to the point, it's only speculation to believe that Naruto's SM is tiers better than Jiraiya's in regards to speed. When he didn't accomplish anything better even with the intel.
Jiraiya's performance wasn't poor. Yes, he was only fighting three Paths of which two were defensive Paths, but that was the problem. Since he was facing the defensive ones, it was hard for him to get a hit in. The Paths, on the other hand, couldn't really get a hit in on Jiraiya either. Their fight would certainly have reached a stalemate had it not been for the two Frogs and their genjutsu. Naruto would probably not have done any better given the same circumstances.
Also, he was mainly defeated because he let his guard down and had his arm cut off. Even then, though, he could have gotten away if he wanted to. It is also worth to note that Jiraiya wasn't fully focused on the fight. He was surprised by many things, such as seeing his former pupils alive and that there were a handful of people with Rinnegan. If you re-read the fight, you'll see that he was focused on how that was possible during the majority of the fight.
I am absolutely certain that Jiraiya would've done better than Naruto if the situation had been reversed.
I agree his performance wasn't poor. But I still maintain the belief that he showed no feats of speed that would be a genuine threat to any of the current upper echelon of ninja. No Sasuke or Naruto or Raikage or Bee or Madara or even illness stricken Itachi.
And I still consider Naruto and Jiraiya's Sage Mode boosts equal thanks to seeing nothing to imply a difference.