Sasuke wasn't slow. Bee was simply faster and better.
EDIT: I assumed that you were talking about the extreme wounds suffered in his fight against Itachi, but I might have misunderstood you on a second thought. If not, then his lack of recovery is still irrelevant as the injuries were caused by Bee and were thus consequences of him getting beaten up.
Last edited by Azuma; May 12, 2013 at 02:00 PM.
- Sasuke was owned twice during the fight. Wrong.
- Sasuke was fatally wounded during the swords' stab attack. Wrong.
- Bee thought of an elaborate plan to escape. Wrong.
- Bee had all his strength/chakra intact after turning into 8 tails. Wrong.
- Amaterasu is not extremely fast or instant. Wrong.
And yet you're claiming that everyone's posts reeks of some kind of irony, when your nonsensical statements are bereft of manga logic? Get over yourself and accept it already. You are wrong on majority of fronts that it's starting to get irritating and laughable at the same time.
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1. How was Sasuke not stomped on by Bee twice during their fight? First he had six swords impaled through him and then he had his whole upper-body crushed. What would you call this?
2. I already admitted that I was wrong when I was proven wrong. As I said before, however, that doesn't change the fact that Sasuke was DEFEATED at that point. He couldn't get back up. He could hardly raise his head to bite Karin. If Suigetsu hadn't jumped in to save Sasuke, Bee would've finished him off. If I were to shoot you in your kneecaps, the wounds wouldn't be fatal, but you wouldn't be able to fight either. Similar scenario.
3. I have not stated that. Not even once.
4. I haven't stated that either. What I did say was that Bee was not at his limits WHEN he did go into his Ox-mode. In other words, Taka hadn't actually FORCED him into using that, he simply felt like it. He could've (and should've, really) gone into Version 2 just as well.
5. Once again, incorrectly quoted. I have only argued against Amaterasu being instantaneous. I am well aware of the fact that it is extremely fast. There is, however, a clear distinction between the two. You are arguing that it is instantaneous when I have shown proof of the Raikage dodging it AFTER it was moving towards him. Had it been instantaneous, then the Raikage shouldn't have dodged it. No matter how fast he is.
Sasuke was actually "owned" more than twice during the fight. Up until he used Amaterasu, he stood no chance whatsoever. Fact.
Also, please enlighten me as to how Sasuke, at "full health", would have handled the situation any differently? You keep saying "Who should we trust? You or Juugo?" without giving it any thought. Sasuke's kick didn't even make Bee flinch. Would that have changed? Sasuke's Sharingan couldn't read Bee's movements. Would that have changed? Sasuke's Chidori Sword didn't work against Bee. Would that have changed? Bee managed to get out of Sasuke's genjutsu and crush Sasuke's upper-body. Would that have changed?
How is it not ironic that you say that I refuse to accept manga facts when you're the ones that are saying that the Amaterasu is instantaneous?
Last edited by Azuma; May 12, 2013 at 02:20 PM.
@Asuma Kindly refer to the appropriate manga pages for full information. Thank you. All of us are not obliged to spoon-feed you over and over again. Also, what determines the fight's status? The middle point, the beginning, or how it culminates?
Better reflexes and speed. A severally wounded man in your amazing opinion moves and reacts at the speed akin to when he's perfectly healthy? The sword stabs would have never happened, as Sasuke effortlessly dodged Raikage's attack when he stabbed him with Chidori. It's a matter of common sense. If you threw aside your illogicality, you might just understand this. Juggo's statement backs this up perfectly. Hence your statement on this regard is a far-fetched opinion.
So Kakashi managed to cut V2 cloaks with Raikiri - arguably a better technique than Chidori - but Sasuke would have managed nothing with Chidori on Bee under V1 Cloak? Chidori sword? What the hell ... I have never even heard of this technique. You mean Sword of Kusanagi? A B rank technique that simply passes an electrical discharge through the sword to paralyze an opponent? You are comparing it with Chidori?
Bee was under genjutsu for a good amount of time - approximately 12-15 seconds - as Sasuke looked at Bee, turned around, and heaved a sigh. After this, Bee's MS genjutsu was broken. Now look at it the other way, since you love opinions; had Sasuke wanted to kill Bee there and then, what would have happened? Who had the upper hand when Bee was lying on the ground with his ass up in the air? A single decapitation would have been the end of Bee, But Sasuke was not there to kill him.
Kindly look at the fight from all angles.
This is getting out of hand. I think the OP's question should have been what rank would you class Sasuke? Genin, Chunin, Jounin or Kage?
So to summarize, Sasuke (without Sharingan) has:
Based on this, without Sharingan I would say Sasuke would make a decent jounin and probably grow to be somewhere on Kabuto's level.
- Excellent taijutsu
- Above average kenjutsu - decimation of 1000 fodder, brief encounter with Bee, Samurai, Mifune... using Sharingan yes, but I'm still impressed.
- Mastery of katon jutsu
- Variations of Chidori (S-rank)
- Strategist - although not so impressive when compared with Kankuro, Temari, Shino, Shika...
- Great at misdirection (apparently better that Naruto, pft!) - lured Deidara over his mine field, tricked Danzo (Sharingan based but excellent)
- Excellent shuriken jutsu - no evidence, see ninjabot for proof
- Excellent use of kawarimi - against Itachi and Temari (anime only)
- Proficient in booby traps - although unsuccesful, Kakashi was impressed during the Bell Test
- Above average speed
- Massive chakra capacity
http://www.mangapanda.com/93-416-4/n...apter-411.html Sasuke sure does look injured!
Mere speculation. A clear difference between the Raikage and Killer B was that Killer B's movements could not be read by the Sharingan whereas the Raikage's movement was predictable. Suigetsu himself stated that they were far too unpredictable to even try and anticipate. Thus, Sasuke couldn't rely on the Sharingan in his duel against Bee and was thus over-powered. It doesn't matter if Sasuke had been in full health or not. Bee is physically stronger as well as faster. Thus, without the aid of the Sharingan, Sasuke is inferior.Quote:
http://www.mangapanda.com/93-416-17/...pter-411.html: Sasuke being forced to simply defend. The bottom left panel clearly implies that Sasuke cannot read Bee's movements with the Sharingan as it is fully activated, yet Sasuke cannot do anything.
http://www.mangapanda.com/93-416-18/...apter-411.html Sasuke being over-powered.
It doesn't matter what rank it is in. I am discussing the fight based on what Sasuke actually did. He used that technique and it is thus an important point of discussion. He didn't use Chidori. Sasuke tried to counter Bee's swordsmanship by infusing chidori into his Sword (which I refer to as Chidori Sword for simplicity) but failed because Bee simply did the same. It wouldn't have made a difference if Sasuke had been in full health or not as he was stunned by the fact that he failed and was consequently impaled by the six swords. Even if we assume that Sasuke wasn't fully healed, he was very, very close to being in perfect condition. There were no visible wounds during the fight, nor were there any reaction by Karin/Juugo/Suigetsu about Sasuke being in a bad condition during the fight.Quote:
http://www.mangapanda.com/93-416-19/...apter-411.html Here you clearly see Sasuke using his Chidori Sword.
http://www.mangapanda.com/93-416-20/...apter-411.html Here it fails and Sasuke is stunned.
http://www.mangapanda.com/93-416-21/...apter-411.html Here Sasuke is impaled by six swords.
What a dumb joke. 12-15 seconds? More like 1-2 seconds.Quote:
If this is 12-15 seconds, then Sasuke must be a turtle. There was clearly no opportunity for Sasuke to finish him off.
Last edited by Azuma; May 12, 2013 at 02:46 PM.
Still doesn't contradict Juggo's statement. Repost it over and over again if you feel like. You are still wrong.
Funny, Sasuke stated that Bee moves in a straight line when he lunges. What's the difference? The flying swords couldn't be countered as he lacked the reflexes to react because the combat was close-ranged in this regard; kenjutsu to be precise. The aforementioned point is to be taken into consideration again. You can consider this for the following paragraph as well.
There is no such thing as a Chidori sword. It's Sword Kusanagi that simply passes current through the sword. Let's compare; this technique bounced off Raikage's armour and yet Chidori itself pierced it when the armour was made entirely of Lightening as well and it blew apart a major part of the hall. See the difference in power? Speculation and nothing more. When the manga uses Juugo to inform that Sasuke was still injured from his fight and that's why he couldn't perform better; this is the statement that holds. Stop with your straw clutches for this point. You are wrong, period.
Must be a very long 1 to 2 seconds on your watch, considering that Bee skidded to the ground first and then what I said happened. Right, because turning around and heaving a sigh couldn't have been replaced by pulling a sword and a single quick decapitation movement? Or even a single Chidori spear would have taken such a long time? Another straw clutch, I see. Try harder.
I am also well aware that there is no such thing as a sword made of chidori, you moron. The translations refer to an electrically infused Sword of Kusanagi as Chidori Blade/Sword (see one of my links, for example) and I simply picked up on it. And once again, why are you still bringing up Chidori? It is completely irrelevant as he didn't use Chidori at that point in the battle. I'm not even sure what part it is that you are referring to when you say "speculation". Sasuke did use the aforementioned technique and it was countered which resulted in Sasuke being impaled by six swords. It isn't speculation. It is fact.
And no, there wouldn't have been any time for Sasuke to turn around and decapitate Bee. The panels clearly show that Bee woke up and attacked Sasuke almost immediately. It would be a considerable risk of Sasuke to do so. It is also completely illogical and weird of Sasuke to do so seeing as he had assumed that he had won. Just like Jiraiya assumed he had beaten Pain. If you actually believe that it took 12-15 seconds for Bee to wake up, then you have no sense of time whatsoever. Why would Sasuke stand still for 15s? It is completely out of place.
I'm not sure if you are dumb or simply too infatuated by Sasuke to objectively judge my posts. Not once have I said that Juugo's statement is contradicting. What I did say was that Sasuke's injuries were vague at best. You choose to interpret Juugo's words as Sasuke having gone into the fight at 50% of his capabilities and thus lost. This isn't the first time you twist my words into something else completely though.
Last edited by Azuma; May 12, 2013 at 03:41 PM.
- And I gave points for both movements? For example, Sharingan could see Lee's movements, but he lacked the reflexes or speed to counter it. This would be a perfect example here as well. His injuries inhibited his movements, otherwise, Sasuke has shown proficiency with Kenjutsu. The data-book refers to his speed as god-like; an obvious Hyperbole that accounts for his speed. If he couldn't do anything here even with 3T sharingan when it were just a couple of swords flying around, then it was obviously the injury.
- You said Chidori blade, when in fact, all of Sasuke's techniques draw upon Chidori one way or another, but they are not specifically similar. Except for Kirin of course, which is pure Lightening. Since you referred to it as a Chidori blade, I took it as one.
- Get a good pair of eyes please, you appear near-blind. Bee skidded to the ground, but your brain can't seem to process that part. Sasuke was looking down, he heaved a sigh, and then turned around. After that Bee broke out of genjutsu. If this happened in 1 to 2 seconds in your book, then no body should buy your ridiculously paltry opinion. I am counting all the happening, even the point when Bee shuddered to a stop during his high-speed movement and had a mental struggle before he fell down face-first. Common sense says it didn't happen in a time less than 12 seconds. But you seem to have it in short supply.
- I am dumb and moronic, heck anyone is who corrects your rubbish opinions? Says the guy who is being repeatedly proven wrong but is back with more high-end opinions that are not even sub-par for consideration. Now THIS would be correct irony. Learn it. No one is twisting your words. You just happen to give fruity opinions, pal.
Last edited by shahdan; May 12, 2013 at 04:02 PM.
How is this argument related to the topic? Whether Bee beat Sasuke or Taka beat Bee has nothing to do with Sasuke being powerful without Sharingan or Mangekyo Sharingan. Every single time, whenever Sasuke or Naruto's power is mentioned, the topic turns into one bitchfight where both sides argue and insult each other. Get back on topic, please; discuss Sasuke's strength in base mode, whether he'd be a good ninja or not. His fight against Bee isn't entirely relevant as he resorted to Sharingan and Mangekyo Sharingan few minutes into the fight.
Once again, you're relying purely on speculation. It wasn't the swords themselves that made Bee unpredictable, it was the way he was handling his swords. Have you ever seen anyone before, or after, use swords in such a manner? Sasuke clearly, and simply, didn't have the base skills required to handle it, even with the Sharingan. Although Sasuke is undoubtedly fast, he was simply not fast enough. His reflexes were not good enough. All he could do was try to avoid the hits by withdrawing, but he was clearly being pushed back. There is nothing during that sequence that suggests a clear correlation between his injury and his inability to kepe up with Bee. Even with the Sharingan, it should be impossible to read each and every movement when it's in such a quick succession. Sueprnatural or not, I do not think the brain can process everything quickly enough for him to react.Quote:
Yes, I called it Chidori Sword/Blade because that's what they, themselves call it. Suigetsu referred to it as "Chidori Blade". Once again, your comparison with Chidori is completely out of place. They were in a sword duel. Had Sasuke approached him with Chidori, his arm would probably have been cut off. Sasuke tried to counter Bee's unpredictable sword movements by infusing an electric current into his blade. He failed in doing so and was thus impaled by the swords. There is nothing more to it. There is no need to talk about a hypothetical scenario with Chidori when we have a perfectly valid scenario.Quote:
And once again, I don't see how Sasuke's supposed prior injuries had anything to do with this sequence. Sasuke was simply stunned because he wasn't at all prepared for Bee to stop him in that manner. Bee used that moment to stab him. Are you also going to suggest that Sasuke wouldn't have been stunned had it not been for the injuries?
That scenario makes no sense. For starters, Sasuke doesn't even sigh. He simply turns around. Secondly, Bee would've started to break out of the genjutsu as soon as he was struck by it. The two events most likely happen simultaneously. Sasuke barely manages to turn around until he's struck by Bee. That means that Bee was out of the Genjutsu slightly before Sasuke turns around again.Quote:
Just check the pages themselves. The fact that Kishimoto places the panels immediately after each other strongly suggests that hardly any time passed. That is also far more in place with Sasuke being caught off-guard. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever that Sasuke would stand still for 15s and that 15s would pass between two panels mid-fight.
You have yet to prove me wrong even once. For the record, let's give a few examples of the ways through which you've twisted my words. You've claimed that:Quote:
- I said Bee had an elaborate plan of scape. False.
- Amaterasu is not extremely fast. False.
- Juugo's statement contradicts what happened in the fight. False.
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