That's a horrid interpretation of what actually happened in the fight.Originally Posted by Xrayz0r
Deidara's bombs were disengaged by raiton, but only when Sasuke charges them with raiton BEFORE they detonate. Deidara still had the advantage because all he had to do is stick to C1,2, and 3 inorder to destroy Sasuke. Sasuke's elemental advantage did literally nothing outside of save him from C4. Granted, Deidara screwed up by not changing his strategy once he realized Sasuke had raiton, but that doesn't diminish the fact that Sasuke singlehandedly stripped down Deidara's strategy intelligently.
This fight is the best example of a decisive victory next to Kisame vs. Killerbee.
best in the class, he was best in the entire school.
2) No? Minato gave Naruto the Kyuubi to stop Obito, which Naruto hasn't been capable of doing at all.
The "way the story is going" by no means makes it any better. It's still a terrible action that reflects horribly on Minato's "genius" if one's gonna play the objective angle.
Team Kakashi wasn't under Minato at that point. Kakashi was the one in command, and it was his mission. Minato wnet off on his own mission, which was separate from theirs. So as I said, Minato helped... And again, the quality of Oto nins have been shown enough to devastate Konoha. Sasuke took out far more without the aid of allies or a space/time technique, all while holding back and going easy.
Gaara forgot because he had been wounded, causing him to flee. Sasuke was hardly defeated, he was merely worn out from already fighting Gaara beforehand, yet he still was the one who kept Gaara busy and came to Naruto's aid at the end. And Naruto stopping Gaara in no way goes against my claim about Sasuke helping, because Sasuke did help.
Not sure what you guys are debating, but I surely hope you're not drawing any conclusions from the oto nins lying around. First off all the oto nins that helped destroy konoha... are dead. The bulk of it is dead. They lost the war, remember? It stands to reason that Oro took at least all his strongest ones, and then they died. What was left back home was the new generation, genin, maybe some chuunin level at that point. Seems more reasonable.
Raiton is super effective against Doton. Nuff said.
They start off using Tackle, Quick Attack, Rapid Spin, whatever. Down to their trump cards, Hydro Pump is weak, Thunder is super effective. Valid analogy.
Remember that ALL kishi had to do to shut me up, was not make Deidara's bombs Doton based. It didn't need to be, it was a kekkei genkai anyway. So why did he do it? Because it was right in the middle of the "explain us about the elements" arc, and because main character Sasuke had to have a way to survive against a slightly stronger side character that needed to get wiped out.
No one said anything about not doing it intelligently, by the way. Sasuke has always fought intelligently. Doesn't change the fact that Raiton>Doton is a very lucky coincidence, especially since Kishi pulled it out of his ass DURING the fight in which Sasuke's supposed to win. Don't blame me for the mistakes Kishi makes, by doing this he implicitly suggests that without lucky type advantage Sasuke wouldn't have won. He could have also come up with something else that had nothing to do with lucky type advantage. He simply handed me material to argue that Deidara would have been slightly stronger had it not been for this advantage. He could have also simply not given me this material, if it wasn't for the fact that he wanted an excuse for Sasuke to beat Oro, Deidara and Itachi despite not being quite as strong as he would appear based on these victories.
Last edited by Xrayz0r; May 22, 2013 at 04:39 AM.
sasuke ressurect orochinaru only for his target. hokages arrived to the battlefield even without sasuke desires
Oro has shown to have control over them, why would he restrict them while they explain history? Oro followed Sasukes orders, so they were allowed by him. There may have been a chance that they would have a way to run, what's stopping Oro from sealing them away again?
It's actually not. You're acting like if Deidara had fired a powered up C2 at Sasuke and Sasuke threw a Chidori Senbon at it while the bomb was exploding in his face that it would've disappeared into thin air or something. Also, Raiton doesn't beat Suiton. It just passes electricity through it. It defeats Suigetsu because water is an excellent conductor for electricity (when it has minerals inside it). In the elemental wheel Raiton is not stronger than Suiton. If someone fires a Suiton at you and you fire an equal strength Raiton into it the Suiton isn't going to dissipate.Originally Posted by Xrayz0r
Again, it isn't, because canonically water isn't weak to lightning.Quote:
Lightning also has a unique relation with water, since water conducts electricity. This means that a Water Release technique can be used to increase the damage of a Lightning Release technique and vice versa. Though this also means that if one's opponent still has a physical connection with the water, either a pre-existing source or one created with their own chakra, then they can be paralysed via their own technique.
What the hell any of this has to do with Deidara is beyond me.
I'm simply pointing out that ration advantage didn't allow Sasuke to defeat Deidara. It allowed him to survive against his C4, and that's it. You're implying Sasuke had an unfair advantage because he could stop UN-exploded bombs... when Deidara had both the power and range advantage AND was immune to Sasuke's Genjutsu. Deidara was set up to win that fight no matter what you want to believe.Quote:
Nah. This didn't come out of Kishimoto's ass, because it happened literally less than 20 chapters prior in a different fight. Kakashi did the same thing against Kakuzu's Earth Armor to great fanfare. And Naruto hitting Kakuzu with FRS was a similar feat of elemental advantage exploitation. Sasuke pulls off elemental advantage but somehow it diminishes his accomplishment? Double standards.Quote:
Don't blame me for the mistakes Kishi makes, by doing this he implicitly suggests that without lucky type advantage Sasuke wouldn't have won.
That doesn't diminish how impressive he was throughout the fight though, especially since it took Deidara's strongest attack to force Sasuke to truly need Raiton. If it wasn't for C4 his CS speed, boss level summon, other summons, shurikenjutsu and katon would've been enough to win the fight. I repeat: his ration was only necessary to survive C4.
Except Kishimoto doesn't want you to think Sasuke's unimpressive. He wants you to think the opposite. And that's why he allowed him to do impressive things even during fights where he couldn't win (despite people ignoring all the impressive things he's done even while losing). Sasuke was still in a growth state, and all of these matches were to show us how far he has improved without realistically letting him defeat ninja he normally could never defeat. It was good writing. It's the exact same reason why Kakuzu was half dead when Naruto defeated him, and Pein was weakened before Naruto defeated him. It's also the reason why you can't say "Ninja A beat Ninja B, and Ninja B beat Ninja C, therefore Ninja A can beat Ninja C." You can't just say "This guy only beat this guy because of this, so he's unimpressive because of it." You have to pay attention to everything that happened throughout the fight. This is why you'll never delude anyone into thinking his feats against Bee, Itachi, or Orochimaru were unimpressive. Because he doesn't have to win to prove how skilled he is. He just has to do things no one else his age can/has done.Quote:
If we were using your logic, anyone would think that Naruto>Kakuzu, just because that ONE attack did him in. But if you look at everything that happened you realize who's truly superior between the two.
You have a case for Itachi and Orochimaru, but you'll never have a case for Deidara. Sasuke won that fight fair and square, and Raiton contributed far, FAR too little to diminish that feat.Quote:
And Tobirama attempted to resist the control and hilariously failed at it. It was because Sasuke decided they all would help fulfill Itachi's desire. At best, you could say that Hashirama could have joined the battle regardless of what Sasuke wanted, but the other three were completely depend upon his decision. And since that includes Minato, there wouldn't have been anyone to rescue the Alliance from the Bijuu Blast nor assist against the Juubi. So my point remains.
Last edited by Rikudou King; May 22, 2013 at 11:36 PM.
without naruto kakashi already kill sasuke>no orochimaru>no hokages>no save alliance
I didnt mention Hiruzen and Minato for a reason, you could attribute the Alliances survival on Sasuke but in no way did he give permission for them to be in the battlefield. Hashirama would have gone regardless of wether Sasuke wanted or not. Hashi was beyond theyre control.
Also, thanks for pointing out what i said about Tobirama...