That's obvious, but not such a distinct character flaw that it can be attributed predominately to only two people. Seriously? These very common, very un-specific traits make him like Danzo? That's it? I don't even know if the second one counts since I've never seen either Danzou frustrated, ever.Originally Posted by Invader
Then you agree it's a very confined, VERY limited, out-of-context comparison?
Okay. Because if being an untrusting pessimist is the qualifier for Danzo-like qualities, everyone in the manga would be a Danzo-doppleganger. Everyone that's ever given up on someone or lost to hatred for the sake of vengeance or sacrificed the few for the many would be just like Danzou.
They don't make him a clone of Danzo if that helps. But they do make him highly unlikely to have the patience or disposition to really effect change as a leader. Danzo was faced with a similar problem. People didn't want him to lead. His response? "Well, screw the people. I'll do what I want, get the results that matter, and nuts to all these idiots like Hiruzen that don't have the guts to do what is needed." I see Sauske as being very similarly inclined.Quote:
Let's say a shinobi under Sasuke's leadership goes rogue. This rogue shinobi is going to start a conflict with his actions if he isn't stopped. What do you really see as Sauske's reaction to such an person? Is he going to talk-no-jutsu such a person into changing his mind and heart? Or is he just going to go out there and slap the guy down? Clearly his tendency is the latter, not the former. Naruto would talk the guy to death while letting the guy beat on him like a rug before doing anything.
Anyway - my whole point is that a Hokage that is going to 'change the system' so that the mistakes of the past aren't repeated just seems like a person who is going to have to be VERY patient, kind, understanding, powerful, and willing to nurture others. And what's Sauske's first response right out the gate? "Screw you guys, I don't care what you think." And I don't see him being much different no matter what the situation is.
At 13 he was an impulsive revenge bent kid ruled by his emotions while having his mind screwed with by a cursed seal. If you want to compare his emotionsl out bursts 4-5 years ago in his life go right ahead, that's an awful example.
He left for Orochimaru after thinking about the situation, after seeing his own village wouldn't help him with his goals. This was selfish not impatient. He showed paitence with Kakashi and it didn't get him as far as he wanted. He was right that Orochimaru got him stronger as that's exactly what happened.
And wow, did you even pay attention the manga. Sasuke carefully put together Hawk, it wasn't something he thought of overnight. He waited for Orochimaru to be at his weakest before attacking him.
He then actually did go and search for information, or did you forget his whole fight with Deidara? He had the information he needed on his brother already, knew how he fought, he just needed to find him. That isn't impatience, I don't know where you get that idea.
His getting brainwashed by Obito and wanting to destroy Konoha is not impatience but stupidity based on his psychotic revenge fuled mind that was manipulated by Obtio when he was vulnerable. He was maniuplated much like Naruto has been manipulated by the Kyuubi on several occasions.
Both of them grew up and learned though, became less emotional and more logical.
I hate to bring Naruto into this, but he's just as if not easily manipulated as Sasuke, and by his own emotions no less. He doesn't even need others to manipulate him, he used to lose control of himself and let the Kyuubi take control.
Notice I used the word used to, much like Sasuke used to do all the things you describe. You fail to see he changed like so many others.
As for putting lipstick on a pig, Sasuke has always been far more intelligent than 95% of everyone in the manga. Problem is he was misguided and mentally and emotionally destroyed thanks to his brother and Konoha's actions.
The odd similarities I keep seeing between Hashirama/Madara and Sasuke/Naruto just pile up.
Some people are unaware what the term selfish even implies. The analogies are downright hilarious.
Me having to explain such plain truths - yes.Quote:
Sauske's whole life is one long series of ways he has been repeatedly manipulated. To say he is not easily manipulated is nonsense. Foe someone so hard to manipulate, it sure seems to happen a lot.Quote:
You should have listened to your first instinct and not brought him into it because it destroys your own argument. Naruto "let" the Kyuubi take control once at the bridge. He 'lost' control of himself once as well, when Pain impaled Hinata. Otherwise there are no examples of Naruto either being manipulated or losing control. Well - I take that back - he was manipulated into getting that scroll in chapter 1. Stack that against Sauske's life of almost purely being manipulated and there's really no comparison between the two. Naruto is far less prone to manipulation than Captain Emo.Quote:
Then why did you deliberately misapply what I said? I repeat it again. I never once said that Sauske should have stopped for 20 minutes to explain himself - as you implied I did. I said that "EVEN IF HE HAD THAT TIME" he would not bother explaining himself because that's how he rolls.Quote:
He could have explained himself to Naruto, Kakashi, Tobi/Obito, Itachi, Karin, Juugo, Suigetsu, or any number of people on multiple occasions. His response is always - to the effect - "I don't care what you think. This is what I'm going to do and if you don't like it then I'll kill you too." But the whole point is that IF he wants to be Hokage then he is going to HAVE to start explaining himself. A lot. And given his track record, he isn't the kind of guy to exhibit that trait. Which makes him a terrible choice as a leader.Quote:
Which he has zero ability to do since he has such rotten leadership qualities. He heard Hashirama's story, saw Tobirama's attitude, and lived through Hiruzen's era. You think he'd have learned something about how being a smarmy prick causes failure as a leader. Apparently he didn't.Quote:
In what particular realm of fantasy did this fevered imagination take place? There's no mention in the manga of Sauske spending two seconds outside of Orochimaru's caves, let alone two yeaers just wandering around free as a bird so he could 'travel the world'. You're talking like Sauske spent the majority of his time as some sort of Jiraya-esque pilgrim where he studied humanity, sought inner peace, and otherwise became some sort of guru. Give the chapter and page in the manga where this is discussed, or it didn't happen.Quote:
IMO the problem with Sasuke being any sort of leader isn't necessarily his similarities to people like Danzou/Madara. The real problem is that Sasuke's the ultimate flip-flopper, whose motivations are guided by the nose as the plot dictates. He made a big deal about killing and forbade Suigetsu from killing, but then started killing without so much as a single thought bubble to tell the reader what the fuck is going on. He went from remembering Team 7 to gain a powerup to stabbing Karin next to the heart because... I guess it was inconvenient to headshot someone with an attack made of lightning.
The truth is that it was simply more dramatic for Kishi to portray Sasuke this way, but it pisses off people who pay attention and expect consistency from a character whose defining trait is inconsistency. I don't blame people for praising the entertainment value of characters like Sasuke/Minato/Itachi. They're fucking cool. They were designed to make you feel like that. But being cool doesn't make an inconsistent character into a quality creation. You can slather frosting on shit but it'll just taste like frosting-covered-shit for anybody brave enough to actually consume the entire thing, instead of just licking the surface like so many fans seem to do.
An apt - if revolting - analogy.Quote:
I agree partially. I agree he's not a clone of Danzou, and I agree he'll make "the hard choice" like Danzou, aswell as the fact that he's as untrusting as Danzou. I don't think that he'll do something akin to the Uchiha massacre though because he's following Itachi's wishes finally, and harming his own citizens, or doing anything to outsiders that would cause an all-out war, would spit on that wish.Originally Posted by Invader
I think you'd be better off comparing him to Raikage than Danzou, but that's just me.
You're right. Sasuke would strike the guy down, and Naruto would talk the guy down instead. And then the guy'd escape, become the next Orochimaru, and attack the village later (like when Oro was spared by Sarutobi). This is the exact thing Sasuke's trying to prevent. Not saying it's right or wrong, but in his eyes he would have protected the village by bringing to justice the guy who was harming it, or preparing to harm it, in the future. His mantra as Hokage will be seen by villagers as "Rule with an iron fist." In actuality, in Sasuke's eyes his mantra is "WWID: What would Itachi do?"Quote:
Gotta disagree. Hashirama's patience resulted in Madara's aquisition of the Kyuubi and attack on the village. Sarutobi's patience resulted in Orochimaru killing him, and a number of his villagers. At some point there's gotta be a leader who has the foresight to say "If I'm soft on these guys they're gonna get bold and try something dangerous. Best to put them down before they get the chance."Quote:
If Tobirama had said something like this you guys would be cheering, lol. As for you not seeing him being much different, remember: Sasuke's already surprised you. Twice.
---------- Post added at 04:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:50 AM ----------
Well, that was orchestrated by Kishi to show Sasuke slowly becoming more controlled by his hatred. It was a gradual build so that people would see him change over time. Now that Sasuke knows the truth it should be tougher for him to decend into madness, as he knows it's not his true nature. Then again, he only goes full psycho when the memory of his brother is being tainted so... his leadership skills should only really diminish in emotional situations like that. And potentially, over time, with people to protect, he would be able to focus on that rather than looking for someone to hate. Maybe.Originally Posted by badluckartist