^ No it doesn't.
What is there to clarify? There was no surprise attack. It wasn't just about being alerted to Orochimaru. Konoha was fully prepared to be invaded, that's what they were waiting for. My statement is fully supported by the series, whereas you're trying to apply circumstances that truly wasn't there.
I am going by what he stated, what he implied, what his mental state dictates, his actions before this point in time and Madara as an example. Now of course i can't see the future and state for sure THIS is how things are going to go down... Thing is i assumed we where discusing possible outcomes (the more likely ones...) based on how we can interpret the manga as it is now... if you don't feel like taking different liberties in doing so then we don't have much to discuss on this forums now do we?Quote:
I said his ego is big enough to IGNORE his comrades(even when they have more info on the task at hand) and belive his decisions are the best. Huge leap from him soloing the Juubi and killing everybody after that (no idea where you got the "killing" part from).
Now even ANAKING before attacking Obi1 offerened him to join him... He said if you are not with me you are against me. Nobody is curetly against him... He is not stupid. Same for Sidious... He did not start by buchering people in front of him.. No he worked with them and gainged trust (that is how he got to be who he was, chancellor = hokage). Sasuke helping here is the prime oportunity to gain trust so he can be "chancellor"...
As for the rest of the post... Its simple as this:
Sasuke decided in his arrogance that his actions are best ignoring Naruto who would be the BEST man to know what needs to be done. THIS would have lead to Juubi getting reborn at FULL POWER somewhere and killing an unfoldable amouth of people desending civilization in the same "dark ages" before RS changed the world.
That is what makes him a moron. The ignorance he displayed because of his arrogance that would have lead to a indescribable world disaster.
Last edited by xXan; July 15, 2013 at 02:04 AM.
It was made pretty clear that the entire class being wiped out was unprecedented, that's about it. And I don't see how most of the rookies are emotionally unstable.Quote:
Your link shows Ibiki saying finally they come, after the surprise attack had already began and he had been informed of the invading forces. How does that indicate what you're suggesting? You should maybe read a few pages before your link to get some context before you post it.Quote:
They took leadership roles, they were at the forefront, which is the main reason that immediately after his death Nagato was in control. Why would I look for other panels, I've already shown the cloud on Yahiko's cloak, and already pointed out Konan's reference to them. How soon after? Was it maintained somehow? I'm going to take it you don't know, mainly because the series doesn't provide that information. You're speculating.Quote:
So...your argument is that he's not much older than 15? Strawman, really?Quote:
Now you're just being ridiculous, and blatantly dishonest. That isn't even long ago, that was from your post that directly precedes this one. Naruto is at least over the age of 15, and 16 is a possibility within the timeframe, mainly because we don't know how far along in his 12th year he was.Quote:
Whatever vendetta he held against the Mist afterwards is probably a result of prior events. Recently is relative, which is why I'm not even bothering about it anymore. It's going to lead to an unending discussion about the meaning of the word recently, in the same manner as it did about the word long. And I don't know the reason for suggesting Yagura put the Sanbi into Rin, I never argued that. You realise that there was a Sandaime Mizukage right?Quote:
I started this thing by saying there wasn't sufficient evidence to link him to it. That's about it, and I subsequently pointed out the potential flaws in what you considered evidence.Quote:
It's in a country, in which he was unwelcome. In an area, in which he was unwelcome. In a village, in which he was unwelcome. You brought up the Kages comments when you accused other Kages of being involved with Akatsuki. The focus of this discussion has always been to compare the crimes of the current Kages against Sasuke's. I can't deny the possibility of any connection whatsoever, it's nearly impossible to disprove a negative. Prove to me that unicorns don't exist within the scope of the manga. Is it an impossibility, no. Is there anything to support the argument, no. It's nonsensical to make a list of the crimes for the Kages that are purely hypothetical and for which there isn't any evidence to suggest they're responsible for. You're supporting the argument that was put forward that the Kages have engaged in greater criminal activity than Sasuke, when an accusation like that is made, the burden of proof is on you. It's not for me to prove that there's absolutely no chance whatsoever that they weren't. Unless I can account for every waking moment of their tenure, that's impossible and an exercise in the ridiculous. I was unaware that a casual statement made by Temari trumped the will of the Hokage, Kumogakure, and Shikamaru. Maybe Temari was woefully uninformed, maybe Suna just hadn't signed on because of their history with Naruto. Who knows. What we do know is that others had already deemed fit to classify him as a criminal, and those individuals wielded far more authority than Temari.Quote:
Was he working under Sasori's orders during the Konoha invasion, no. Case closed. Did we see Ibiki torture him, have any indication that was the case? It seems pretty pointless to torture a guy when you can just take a look through his mind. At least you recognised the hyperbole. Murder is generally considered a more heinous crime than kidnapping. And I'm not even going to get into that never-ending debate about claims of self-defence for Sasuke, it's pointless. After this lengthy debate, the Kages aren't any closer to Sasuke's rap sheet.Quote:
Last edited by Impossibility; July 15, 2013 at 05:11 AM.
Wiping out the entire class was unprecedented, that's it. As far as I know having a sad backstory doesn't necessarily mean that one is emotionally unstable.Quote:
If Konoha had their forces prepared to fight off the invasion, where were the forces that showed up and started ripping their way through the Suna/Oto forces much later?Quote:
A whole new group. So immediately after the death of Yahiko the members of Akatsuki we know just showed up? He took control over the organisation long before the new membership joined up. Forgive me, if I find your argument that the manga was mistaken unpersuasive. She referenced Amegakure, so how does that make the claim moot when you're desperately attempting to establish this 'new' organisation beyond the organisation founded in Amegakure. Soon? Maybe Oro left Akatsuki soon after the Uchiha Massacre. You don't know.Quote:
That post directly preceded the one I responded to, so it wasn't several posts ago. And your claim that he wasn't 15 was to counter the idea that he could possibly be 16? Wow, this is just beyond entertaining at this point.Quote:
I'd say you making a statement in one post and immediately denying you made said statement in the next is both ridiculous and dishonest. Obviously, that's just my take on it.Quote:
If you can show me where Zabuza indicated he wanted to kill Mei, I'd be more than willing to continue this, otherwise I've pretty much moved on. The rest of the paragraph is pretty much repetition, or just taking up space.Quote:
You didn't counter the flaws in your argument, you pointed out that there wasn't enough evidence to prove that A wasn't Raikage at the time. Something I agree with, but there also isn't enough to prove that he was Raikage at the time.Quote:
I'd say a member of an international terrorist organisation who intends to kill a guest of the country is probably unwelcome. And I specifically pointed out Tsunade because she's one of the foci of the overarching argument, not Danzo. Your proof for Mei being involved with Akatsuki is that A accused individuals, including former Kages, of being involved with Akatsuki. That's an accusation, not even one specifically against her. There isn't anything. Danzo declared Sasuke a criminal; a missing-nin, he was a criminal. Kumo decided to consider him an international criminal, Shikamaru just stated what they had already made clear. And Temari being close to Gaara doesn't discount the decision of Danzo and Kumo. As for correcting her, did you expect a debate on the topic while they were facing Sasuke? So Shikamaru's statement is only valid if it is repeated by Sai? You're most definitely running out of steam here.Quote:
Once again, whose orders was Kabuto following? Oro, who was not a member of Akatsuki at the time. So nothing showing Ibiki torturing him then? Even in a world of child soldiers, murder trumps kidnapping. Name one example in the series of kidnapping being mentioned as a crime, do you have a point with that statement? And by your recent reasoning, you haven't shown any crimes for the Kages. If Sasuke's actions are just fine, I don't see what you could possibly attribute to the Kages.Quote:
You have absolutely not once thought about that being a retcon due to changes in the manga, due to Mai appearing hundreds of chapters after we got the first image of Kirigakure to show a change and enable them to build an alliance, not with ruthless murderers that let the children die, but with a new leader and new perspective. And don't you dare to play obtuse here, use some common sense instead of trying to win an argument. Mai is not the same Hokage that let her citizens suffer, that's what everything is hinting to, that's what the whole farewell was about, to show a difference to the old picture we had.
Firstly, Rin was being used as a weapon while Obito was still recovering. If we remember correctly, Obito was the one manipulating Yagura. Mei's rain was after the Rin incident, because Kisame confronted Yagura and Obito. Mei comes after Yagura.
If I'm missing something please let me know lol.
You go and attack the Fuedal Lord of the Fire Country and that attack leads to killing him, you've basically waged war against the nation surely.
By fighting Raikage, Sasuke had made himself an enemy of Kumogakure. There are easily a few other examples too.
Like when Kisame and Zabuza were 7Swordsmen at the same time and tried a Coup d'Etat, where they tried to take out the heads of their village and then next thing we know they're enemies of the Hidden Mist?
I think its clear in Naruto at least that an attack on the head of a nation = attack on the nation.
Raikage is the one who instigated. It doesn't matter what the circumstances were, it was a fight for survival. Even in Naruto Sarutobi was killed because of Wind Country's hidden village's transgression and yet no one retaliated. He was replaced. It means that matters can be averted. That was an internal affair, not an external attack. Surely, Sasuke would be declared enemy by the Ninja faction because he attacked the head of Ninjas in hidden Cloud Village, but will everyone abide by it, the whole country? I doubt it as there is nothing to support this.
Kisame wasn't even 40 when he died, meaning if he met Obito before Naruto's birth, he'd be around 20, which it seems he was.
As for the Sanbi, if your remember it was free and in the ocean. I see no reason why it couldn't have been reborn several years after Yagura's death, and then was free for like 10 plus years until Tobi an Deidara found it.
Obito controlling Yagura after Rin's Jinchuriki status makes sense. In fact the entire reason Obito chose Kiri was probably because he wanted revenge for Rin, specifically against the Kage who turned her into a monster.
So a timeline of events would look like this.
- Yagura takes power before the Third Shinobi War
- Third Shinobi War, Obito is "killed"
- Third Shinobi War, Obito finds Rin who is dead
- Obito becomes "Madara"
- Obito infiltrates Kiri and controls Yagura
- Kisame confronts Yagura and Obito, leaves Kiri
- A few years go by and people become suspicious of the Yagura, people are leaving the village and Kiri is killing bloodlines, and then Zabuza goes and murders his whole class.
- Kimimarro's clan is exterminated
- Orochimaru takes Kimi
- Haku's clan is hunted
(these three can be in any order and likely all happened around the same time)
- Yagura is found out and killed
- Mei takes charge (this would be about the time Naruto and company start the academy)
- Zabuza leaves and finds Haku (Naruto and co are children still)
- Zabuza attempts his coup and flees with Haku
- Then we get the start of the series
Not sure how this can't make sense.
10+ according to statements in the series (Kakashi talking about Zabuza's history, which is around the time the Bloody Mist era was ending). Naruto's only around 15 currently and Rin seemingly died shortly before his birth if events are to be taken literally.
Obito really doesn't make any sense. A huge point was made about how he just didn't care, and it doesn't make much sense for him to want revenge against Kiri when he basically left the just as guilty Kakashi free. Not to mention, nothing apparently came from Yagura being controlled. It's not as if Kiri was destroyed or anything. And why would Obito be having Kisame hunt down ninjas selling the village secrets when that would have been perfectly align with his revenge goal?