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Also i dont believe that every Logia User automaticly has CoO to doge any attack better.
I beliee, and i have no reason to dont believe it, that the Elemental Form is omnipresent.
But that a Logia User cant Touch anything is something which was never a Role in One piece, dont know why u came up with this.
All that we know is - A Logia User can Touch anything he wants. Like if he is giving a Hand Shake or eating something.
And what we also know is, that every time a Bullet or Sword attack comes to a logia User, it will go through.
The Alabasta example with Smoker is nice. But its like the only time something like this happens, and it goes against all the 'Rules' we learned about Logia in the Whole Plot til that time and from that time on to present day.
Maybe someone needs to ask Oda why Smoker was Pushed away by Luffy insdead of Luffy slipping through. Then we can have a clear answer.
Maybe he would say its the Tension of an upcoming Battle between Smoker and Ace.
I'd say this discussion is kinda useless since we know about the forms of Haki. With it any logia user could foresee attacks and willingly let them pass.
In my opinion it's all about seeing the attack coming. As a logia you can convert your body in that element and become intangible. Since they do it willingly they activate it, maybe even subconcious, then the bullet passes through and they deactivate it to become solid again. We also pretty much know experienced logia users can become partially intangible, like Crocodile, who would otherwise loose his hook on every transformation (or is he able to transform the hook aswell? I'm not sure). Guess it all comes down to the experience, like always :P
Dircetly to the opening question: I don't think we will ever again see a logia user without Haki in the manga, which is bad since Haki users are hard to surprise. And most people now also use Haki to attack so they don't need to rely on surprise attacks just to bypass logia powers.
From what we have seen it's most likely possible to bypass them in the matter you described, while the logia user can dodge by willingly or subconscious (out of reflex) transforming their whole body, or parts. Well, given he's aware of beeing in danger.
Last edited by David Rose; May 29, 2013 at 09:20 AM. Reason: added some details
here saying something to the effect that he had trained his powers to eliminate the possibility of being attacked by surprise, but I don't see it in that scanlation. It could have been something the anime added.
My interpretation of the kick to Aokiji is simply that the kick wasn't strong enough to hurt him, let alone fracture him. Aokiji was leagues above Luffy at that point and frankly didn't care that some rookie foolishly kicked him.
The other camp here would probably explain it with logia ability itself deciding it wouldn't hurt Aokiji and choosing not to intervene. As if it's intelligent or something.
I think the answer is pretty clear, based on everything we saw about logias in One Piece.
Its hard to tell but from the examples we're giving such as Ace bumping into Smoker,,
In that example they weren't really getting cut up or exploded, so their bodies didn't really have to rebuild themselves... Where as when Kizaru got blown up from the head he didn't see it coming so he had to rebuild his body. They can still be caught off guard.
But to hurt them seems another story, Jozu had to have done something to hurt Aokiji back in the war, along side Whitebeard punching Akainu. There are a lot of confusing things about when they can or can't hurt them... Plus with the introduction of Haki it now seems you can hurt them even when they turn their body into elements.
Also I almost forgot there was something around Zoro's way to defeat Monet in that Monet could have been instant killed had Zoro used haki or something? Oh dear I'd need to reread it again, but no matter how many times it's still not easy to explain or understand
Kizaru was prepared to come to Sabaody and well informed about pirates being there. That's why he went there with his intangible mode on - he got there riding a cannon ball that exploded. So why would he turn it off in a war zone?
From what I gather we have seen instances of both scenarios. Smoker was seen being pushed back by ace's physical body during alabasta and from that point onward I think we have seen several instances of people just transforming into their element reflexively. Wasn't this said to be an issue of fruit mastery so to speak?
Last edited by RichardMNixon; May 30, 2013 at 09:51 PM.
The most logical conclusion is that they have to activate it manually, which also seems to be the most plausible one given that there are a handful of examples showing the Logia user being touched.
Well it's been a while but the matter of Logias is still not clear to me. I've always thought that in order to let an attack pass through you, you have to be aware of it. Unless you trained yourself to activate the power on reflex. That would also explain the handshake matter - it's not a Reflex if you touch something on purpose so there is no reason why you would turn into the element.
But there is one Thing I don't understand. As far as I know Luffy was only able to hit Enel because he was made of Rubber. But if the Reflex theory is true then Enel could have been hit by Luffy's attacks even without him being rubber - just by punching against the wall and making the attacks unpredictable. That could actually work against every Logia then. Unless of course Enel did train the reflex thing aswell. So I'm not sure what to believe anymore.
Also I have a second question and I would love to hear an answer to this one: It was stated that Logias are easier targets if they increase their body volume. But why? If a Logia turns completely into his element does that mean that EVERY inch of the fruits substance (for example smoke) is basically one tiny part of the user's body and you can therefore hit him even if he doesn't have a body shape anymore? Or if there is a huge Logia wall like in the Ace vs. Aokiji fight. If ace had transformed himself into fire WHILE the wall was there then there would have been no way to hit him right? Because the wall had nothing to do with his body and he could hide himself in the "created" fire. Just confusing to me.
PS: Logia without Haki -> Caribou
Until we're shown otherwise by Oda I will consider that logia powers activate automatically whether the user is aware of the attack or not. The moment harm should come to their body, it transforms and the damage is ignored, period. If anyone could negate the logia's physical immunity by simply taking them unaware, it wouldn't be that great a power.
As for situations such as Smoker & Ace in chapter 158, I think they should be shrugged off in the name of comic relief.
Regarding your second question, I think the body of a logia user transformed into its elemental form and a volume of the element created by the user as part of an attack or defense are different things.
- any part of the former can still be touched by a haki user, resulting in damage to the logia.
- whereas the later is a completely independant object. When Ace uses his fire pistol ability, he is not throwing a part of his body at his opponent.
Seafearer answered your second question pretty well I believe.
i think JUST for crocodile that even haki wont hurt him
i mean, people can touch him already, he is just sand
he isnt ethereal like fire, or lightning or something
he is solid