Team 7 (Nelliel Tu Odelschwanck, Yasutora Sado, Cirucci Sanderwicci)
Team 8 (Grimmjow Jaegerjaquez, Uryū Ishida, Choe Neng Poww)
Ichigo had to use bankai to defeat the Privaron Espada he fought. That alone would suggest that the Privaron Espada are stronger than Vice-captains, even if they don't quite attain to Captain level. Poww is just a fraccion, so he should definitely be weaker than Cirucci or Chad.
Since Poww ate Koma's punch like it was nothing while unreleased, I think he can take anything Chad can throw at him while he is released. Which isn't to say Chad is weak, just Poww is really tough.
---------- Post added at 02:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:16 PM ----------
Even more so, from a story perspective Byakuya was the goal to reach in terms of power and skill. Ichigo had to go through hell to be able to surpass Byakuya not only in raw power, but also in Shunpo, Hakuda and Zanjutsu, and attitude as well.
By the way, if Renji's failed Hado #31 could do this much damage, it doesn't speak too well of Szayel's physical strength, who by the way, said was not his forte.
I think it's time to clarify which captain class is which. Captains like Shunsui are good swordsmen and at waiting for the best chance to strike while lacking in the strength department while others like Hitsugaya create a bunch of shit to throw at their opponent and have moderate skills and others excel at physical strength but have decent overall stats, and the same for speed, or Kido, or hand to hand combat, and whatever. Hachigen for example, could beat most captains in the Kido department during the TBtP arc. Omaeda, as much shit as he gets, would beat most other captains at a covert assignment and so on.
Stopping energy blasts barehanded: Check.
Shooting large energy blasts: Check.
Large area destruction: Check.
High speed: Check.
High physical strength: Check.
Straight to the point: Check.
Back to Shunsui, he hasn't done anything impressive in the strength department, but he's sure as hell the best at getting the job done.
Most of the things you're describing is just what a captain is capable of. If you look at the 13 original captains we were introduced to in the SS arc, at least five of them were clearly superior to Byakuya; Yamamoto, Shunsui, Ukitake, Unohana, and Aizen. If he's at best, considering that some other captains are probably around the same level, ranked 6 out of 13, he's average. That laundry list of feats doesn't change reality. Maybe you should keep a more thorough accounting of events.Quote:
This sounds like a list of excuses. Obviously individuals have different styles, and because of this matchups play out differently. The reality remains that when Renji has come up against individuals that would be considered captain-class, he has hit a wall.Quote:
The fact remains.Quote:
I'm not sure if you're actually trying to make a point here.Quote:
I read the chapters. We saw how he compared to Nnoitra, and the massive difference in power between them.Quote:
So Chad was not even close to a match for someone of captain-level. That is basically what you're saying here. Yeah, Nnoitra is difficult to kill. That's what makes him captain-level, and why Chad never stood a chance.Quote:
This list is pretty pointless, just to point out. He might have these things down, but at the end of the day...he just isn't good enough.Quote:
Yes, lots of people are better than Byakuya at lots of things. Not sure you're helping yourself out here. How is Unohana superior to Byakuya? Unohana slaughtered Kenpachi countless times, each time with him returning much stronger than before. Are you suggesting that Byakuya is stronger than Unohana? Seriously? Shunsui's performance speaks for itself. And whether or not you consider the senior captains honourable is entirely irrelevant to their power. As for your wholly pointless attempt to look mildly intelligent; I said he was average, not that he was an average. And for the record the median in a list of numbers from 1 to 13 is 7, not 6.Quote:
Yes, that's about right. I choose to read, understand, and utilise common sense and logic to come to an obvious conclusion.Quote:
I accept your facts, when they're facts. The important fact here is that Renji has been handily defeated by every captain-class individual he has come up against. I point out the obvious simply because you choose to completely ignore it.Quote:
Lots of words, none detract from what I said. Renji's bankai was damaged. Once again, another fact.Quote:
This question is completely asinine.Quote:
I saw Chad unable to cause Nnoitra any real concern. Then I saw a Captain show up and take him on, something that Chad wasn't even close to being able to do.Quote:
So Chad was unable to defeat Nnoitra. Nnotira's durability was one of the things that was integral to his strength, a strength of captain-level. How is what I said 'baseless'? Which component is off? Chad wasn't close to being a match for Nnoitra; that seems right. And Nnoitra is someone of captain-level; a fair assessment. So what's off about my statement, other than you just not liking it?Quote:
The possibility of transforming his body? Maybe he can fly too. Read the rules of the tournament, or simply go back to the first page of this to see the moderator's post. Now you're just wasting time.
Being able to take on a Captain, or someone of comparable power, and at the very least force them to actually get serious is probably a start.Quote:
It's important to note that Nnoi sliced through Chad's arm of the giant VERY easily while he was sealed. one-shotting him more or less. I don't think any captain class would fall to Nnoi that quickly, even Mayuri. So I do think Chad is around high level VC, maybe even higher, but he is no captain level fighter. Gantenbeinne is no doubt a strong opponent and shouldn't be seen as fodder, but he was 107, so the difference between him and Dordoni could be very noticeable. And Poww can easily be seen as an above high level VC fighter. In the end, though, even if Chad is Ishida's equal, which I don't think unlikely, I don't think either of them could easily handle Poww, who is more or less a "freak" as far as his rank is concerned. Not to mention Barragan in general had some tough fraccion.
Unless you think Shunsui actually faced Yamamoto head on and took his fire attacks directly which would be completely off character and disregarding his own abilities and fighting style that has remained constant.
Most of this is entirely irrelevant to your assertion that Byakuya is one of the strongest captains. There are quite a few individuals that are superior to him in Kido, Zanjutsu, Hoho, and Hakuda. There are those with greater intellects and greater raw strength. The only thing you've shown is that Byakuya has a more balanced approach. You're arguing that Byakuya is a jack-of-all-trades, which isn't what this discussion is about. Is he or is he not stronger, that is the topic of discussion.Quote:
If Zaraki became a better swordsman every time Unohana brought him back, he became a stronger foe. What is there to discuss? And how is 'much stronger' baseless; Zaraki went from being casual play for Unohana to bringing her down while she utilised her bankai. He became much stronger. Are you actually trying to be dense? And where you got this 100s of times stronger nonsense from is absolutely beyond me.
As for Unohana, I'm not arguing that she was better than Byakuya at everything. I'm saying she was stronger than Byakuya. You essentially admit to that, and then try to point out that Byakuya has a lot of skill as though it changes things. And just to point out at the very least she's shown better Zanjutsu and Kido.
He is average.Quote:
What has Byakuya shown that makes him one of the strongest captains? His greatest feat at the moment is his defeat of Zommari, the 7th Espada. He's a captain; you've shown that he deserves to be one, but in no way have you, or the manga, shown that he is 'one of the strongest captains'.Quote:
So once again, you just list reasons why Renji has lost every single battle against captain-level foes, rather than show what he has accomplished. Although, I don't get why this is an issue considering that you've already said you think Renji is a decade away from being captain-class.Quote:
I'm not here to argue about how the fact came to be a fact, or whether or not you like it. Renji's bankai was damaged; end discussion.Quote:
I refused to answer because it's an asinine question. Who's stronger the captain or the bankai? Bankai is a part of a captain's repertoire, it is powered by a captain. Since it is only one aspect of their strength, it is necessarily weaker than the captain is in their entirety. Considering your extensive list of Byakuya's abilities this should be pretty clear to you.Quote:
This is just ridiculous. Considering that Zaraki killed Nnoitra, I don't even know where this came from.Quote:
Yep, that is part of my argument. Yes. He was completely outclassed by some on the level of a captain.Quote:
Thank you for listing Nnotira's qualities. Very useful.Quote:
And where did you see that logic utilised?Quote:
Feel free to reread the rules if you want to post here.Quote:
What you're saying isn't even remotely the same as what you're responding to.Quote:
http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...1-page-17.html but again ignored that very detail & told Torran to move on. Unless you change your wrongful opinion I dare say you relinquish your audacity to ever touch ever this subject again & if you do your opinion will have no value. It goes against fact.
Another example of how your misapprehension on what captain class is no doubt. Continuously disregarding the fact that different fighting styles exist for a reason.
.No "decent VC" or your misconception of the word "decent VC" is going to be able to push Bankai Renji at that point in time.
.Chad pushed bankai Renji.
.Chad got his butt kicked despite being capable of pushing bankai Renji to his limits by the previous espada sealed state.
.Chad got a powered up, obtained a second hand & annihilated the previous released state espada with his might.
& you say decent VC can handle that previous Espada?
Yamamoto is pretty self-explanatory.
Shunsui managed to beat the number one espada, whereas Byakuya only just beat Zommari
Unohana managed to kill Kenpachi hundreds of times, when he's incredibly strong
Kenpachi beat Unohana
Shinji hasn't shown any major feats, but his Shikai is perfect for countering Byakuya.
Byakuya isn't that strong - sure, he's versatile but he suffers from 'jack of all trades, master of none'. In a battle against Kenpachi, the second Kenpachi got close he'd beat Byakuya due to the difference in skill there.
Shunsui may not be as brutally destructive as Byakuya, but his Shikai games and intelligence give him a distinct advantage at range...
I can also give similar examples to what you gave but before I do that let me start by saying, Shunsui absolutely didn't fight the might of Starrk, the Vizard captains did. Rather Shunsui waited for the right timing & chance to strike his foe down. Victory isn't establish or determine by which party is the strongest, rather by timing & chance & Shunsui took his chances & waited for the righting timing to catch Starrk with his power & won the battle.
The end result is what you are looking at not what lead to the end result & that's a flawed logic.
Now as for examples?
Yukio isn't stronger than a captain however he could defeat 20 captains.
Barragan is superior to Soifon & Hachigen however he allowed his arrogance to take over & his superiority had no meaning.
Tousen could & would have killed Zaraki easily in the SS arc however he made stupid decisions.
Gin was no where near Transcended Aizen however Aizen was embarrassed by him in spite of the gap in power because of timing & chance. & Aizen would have died if he didn't have his immortality status.
2) As for Unohana. He killed Zaraki several times in a sword battle. So what of it? Zaraki is an individual that lacks the basic high speed movement. Byakuya has the tools to replicate what she did by simply grinding Zaraki several times with several millions high speed moving blades. Zaraki can't combat an individual like Byakuya. He is disadvantaged to do so.
3) During that sword fight, Unohana later used bankai to which would have incinerated Zaraki however her constant healing made it so that Zaraki escaped those deaths as intended. The purpose of that training wasn't for Unohana do kill Zaraki otherwise she wouldn't have healed him & rather let him burn to ashes. The purpose was for Zaraki to learn the advance lesson of the Zanjustsu (& that's what the training was called). At the end of it all Zaraki surpassed Unohana at fighting with the sword but Unohana also allowed herself to Zaraki's strike at the end.
So again you example doesn't work.
4) Byakuya has the exact counter for a fighter like Shinji with shikai. Shinji's shikai merely disrupts & manipulates the sense of sight. Byakuya has access of Millions of blades being controlled by his mind.
5) Shunsui can defeat any opponent given the circumstances. His ability supports him in being able to accomplish just that. Again victory is determine by timing & chance not whom is necessarily the strongest however we are looking at who is strong to be categories into a certain groups here not who can defeat who given the circumstance.
Last edited by Kay3795; June 20, 2013 at 01:36 PM.
Byakuya's greatest feat is his defeat over Zommari, the 7th Espada. Shunsui has shown himself to be superior. He wouldn't hold a candle to the monster that is Unohana. You're leaving some obvious names off the list. Kenpachi defeated a higher-ranked Espada. If you include the likes of Shinji, Isshin, Yoruichi, and Urahara, Byakuya finds himself even farther down in the pecking order.Quote:
Was my assertion that they were losing badly to Szayel inaccurate? Renji has yet to hold his own against someone of captain-class.Quote:
Once again, you're running on about something that adds nothing to the conversation. Renji's bankai was damaged; fact.Quote:
It's amazing how you beg for links, yet can't provide anything to show that Chad is captain-level. Chad's performance against Nnoitra speaks for itselfQuote:
Is this meant to mean something? Yukio was a plaything for Hitsugaya. Yukio's style accomplished absolutely nothing.Quote:
Like before, refer to the rules of the tournament. We've seen what some of the VCs are capable of during the battle at Karakura, I'd wager that they'd be able to take care of Gantenabainne. Once again, we've seen Chad's performance against individuals of captain-level; he's been useless.Quote:
Ichigo wasn't able to do anything against Noitra either. Does that make him not captain class? Chad had just come out of a tough fight where he expended a lot of energy when Noitra came along. I'm not saying that Chad is exactly a captain-level fighter, but to say that he isn't strong just because he wasn't able to defeat Noitra is ignoring the circumstances. Espadas 1-4 were strong enough to stand against multiple captain level opponents and be a serious threat still.