Yes, there has been and still is a verbal war in progress.
this war in a nutshell
Gaara didn't break the cycle of hate. He dissolved the distrust of having former enemies side by side, but he didn't break the cycle of hate. The cycle of hate is more than having advesaries play nice with each other. That task is going to be accomplished by someone else. Danzo didn't setup the Uchiha to revolt. they did that themselves. Danzou just struck first.Quote:
And you don't think a creature that destroyed a nearby town and Alliance HQ with two blasts is intense? Once again it's entirely subjective. Every person has their own version of intensity. Was the Bleach war intense because no one died? Was the One Piece War-or rather battle royale- even a war because two unimportant secondary characters died-one of which was only introduced mere chapters before he kicked the bucket? Yeah the FMA war was an insurrection but when the only victims are a Northern lieutenant and a bodyguard who have no real ties to Ed and Al is it really intense? You could easily argue none of them were wars based on terms of "intensity".Quote:
It's still tension even if you're not moved by it. If it talks, walks, and quacks like duck, it's a duck.Quote:
Correction. This is the core issue which demonstrates why people are claiming this arc isn't a war are wrong. The war arc is proceeding as a war. It may be a great war, a mediocre war, or a lousy war, but it's still a war. However, people are putting preconditions that must be achieved before they acknowledge that it's a war. That's not how it works. Otherwise I can make the same preconditions for wars in real life. Since Eisenhower, Roosevelt, and my great-uncle weren't killed, WWII was not a real war because no one I cared about was impacted even though hundreds of millions of people died. That's the flaw with "only fodder have died" argument. It's a misguided reader's self-imposed precondition, not a requirement for war. We had Gai bolstering the troops after their comrades died around them, Hinata doing the same for Naruto surrounded in dead bodies he vowed to protect. You had Neji die right in front of Naruto yet you brush that off as" fodder" and "safe" conditions when the exact opposite is being portrayed? Kishi gives us the token one or two moments, but how many are really needed it to be a "war". Ten, twenty, one hundred? It's manga, not War and Peace.Quote:
That was your incorrect assesment of Gaara's talk. Gaara got them to not fight each other, which is an important first step. However, he didn't break the cycle of hatred. That task was left to Naruto. With all the talk about Naruto trying to reach Sasuke and all the horrors of war that Nagato related to Naruto it was Naruto's task to solve the problem. And at a basic level he did. Kishi had Naruto able to relate to everyone with their chakra. When Naruto bestowed the chakra cloak to all members of the Allliance he succeeded whene everyone has failed. He doesn't know everyone to the core of their beings but he is able to relate to everyone at the most primitive level. Hopefully going forward he will do more than that.Quote:
Although they have forces, they were the playgrounds of the other bigger nations. Sure Europe has armies of their own but could they defeat the combined might of the Soviet Union, China and the USA? Not bloody likely. If they were sufficient, countries like the Nation of Waves woud never need to hire Naruto to do work for them, they could get one of the smaller places...unless they weren't up for the task. Coincidence? They were a force but not a sufficient force to rival the Big 5. Still the biggest retcon ever.Quote:
Ah yes, the Espada being stronger than captains yet getting taken down by lieutenants and foot soldiers. Talk about overhyped. But they fulfilled their roles giiving airtime to secondary characters who normally wouldn't get it. Killing them didn't advance the plot at all. The same is true for the Edo Tensei. Secondary characters (over 30 of them) were given a shot and they didi what they could with the Edo Tensei, yet couldn't defeat them. So yeah, sealings had to take place since Kishi put that constraint on the scenario. Zabuza made use of the invulnerability to slce through Haku to get at Kakashi, a limitation that most living wouldn't make.Quote:
Was there a statue of Izuna at the waterfall which was the backdrop of the Naruto/Sasuke fight? No, it was Madara. Who has Itachi's alleged assistant in the slaughter of the Uchiha, it was Madara, Whose chakra does the Kyuubi recognize as another sign of foreshadowing, Madara. If Izuna was placed there. then the argument might have some weight, But Izuna's only reference to the enitre storyline is as a victim to Madara getting the MS. That's it. He's not explained in any other capacity except for that. Yeah, Danzou, Sarutobi, and Chiyo were good, now add another 10-20 years on top of that to get to Izuna's generation and they aren't so hot anymore.Quote:
Kakashi is Obito's link to the present. Who is Izuna's link to the present, no one., You could make Tobi Joe Uchiha for that matter and it'd have the same effect. The Uchiha were defeated by Hashitama 50-60 years ago and I'm going for revenge on a bunch of people who don't know who I am, Ho hum.Quote:
Rin was killed by the system in the never ending cycle of revenge. She was kidnapped, infused with a bijuu primed to detonate, killing herself in the process, to unleash the 3 tails on Konoha. Just like Gaara was roughly 20 years later. She was a victim of the system, Kakashi made her suffering less. Obito's goals arean't as magnanimous as Nagato's. In fact they are very focused and selflish but the scope of the techniques impacts everyone. Obito's approach impacts everyone, but he doesn't care because he believes that no one else will care since their desires will be fulfilled like his will be. He's hitting the reset button just like in FMA. I lost something, I can't deal with the loss so I'm going to employ some forbidden tecfhnique so I can reset things to the way they were. Just like in FMA except ithe technique's range is regional and not just local.Quote:
Pain was calling the shots for 200 chapters and Tobi for a similar amount. Sure it was implied Tobi was Madara, but how many mystery people turn out to be someone else? Once again the nebulous clain of broken retcons when Kishi explains it all., especially when there is so much of the backhistory that remains untold can it really be a retcon? Yes, Kakashi does need this battle for his much needed character development otherwise he'd still be at the memorial every morning bemoaning his powerlessness about what happened over 16 years ago. It's time he moved on and this opportunity with Obito gives him that chance.Quote:
I've said my piece more than once on why I think this "war arc" has fallen flat on it's face. So I'm not really going to go into that. I basically just agree with what Rikudou King said on a lot of "why" of it. So I'm going to focus instead on how I think it could have been "improved".
Here's are 10 things I would have tried to convince Kishimoto to do differently had I been his editor.
Last edited by Jammin; July 06, 2013 at 02:33 PM.
Anyway, as I said, they had actual history and a purpose beyond a single arc of showing off. Not only that, but they were actually built up as a threat, with the seeds planted long before the war arcs. Also, most of their deaths did advance the plot. That's nothing as with the majority of Edo summons. And the majority of Edo summons were defeated without trouble. Madara is the only one who couldn't be defeated as such. The entire point is that if Kishi was gonna allow them to be defeated so easily, there was no point in any making such a limitation or bring them into play. It would be like introducing an army of invulnerable robots and then giving everyone the means to short circuit them. And the situation with Haku wasn't a play on Zabuza's invulnerability. It wasn't even a play on Haku's invulnerability, given that Haku was basically "dead" after Kakashi's hit. And slicing through a person isn't a limitation most living ninjas would have.
Aside from you clearly skipping Onoki, 10 to 20? Izuna was from Tobirama's generation, who wasn't greatly older then either Sarutobi or Danzo. If Onoki can fight amzing at his age, izuna could have too.
No, Kakashi didn't need any character development, and any development he did need was given with his meeting with his father. I'm failing to see why something that hasn't even been shown for a long time matters? And honestly, how is this current situation suppose to fix that? He's still failed Obito, but now on an even bigger level.
That's not breaking the cycle of hate, The cycle of hate is eternal fighting due to people getting revenge for fallen comrades. Making an alliance to attack someone is not breaking the cycle, it's promoting it. Additionally, Jiraiya, Nagato, and Minato have all given this charge to Naruto, not Gaara. Where does Danzou promote the Uchiha revolt? He kept an eye on them but he didn't encourage dissent.Quote:
They were all battle royales. Instead of having 2-3 one-on-one fights you have 5-10. That's not a war. It's bigger, but they still aren't wars. The only one close was FMA. At least Naruto does offer more than a battle royale.Quote:
It's quacking like a duck. The problem is that you're looking for a goose. The issue isn't the duck.Quote:
There's plenty to correct, For starters you're using the wrong measuring stick. You're applying the rules for a marathon to a 1 km race. You're looking for signs of a drawn-out war, things that occur over a period of years, not 2 days and you're crying fowl? People aren't impacted? Are you serious? Ino and Shikamaru aren't impacted by the deaths of their fathers? Hinata, Lee, Hiashi and Naruto weren't impacted by the death of Neji, not to mention that 60,000 shinobi that have already died. Death is pretty impactful. Maybe not to you but it is to them. Yet you turn a blind eye to this because you don't see fodder suffering from PTSD or wanting to kill themselves uncontrollably from seeing the "horrors" of war. So yeah, you're placing unreasonable preconditions on the war and ignoring what's taking place because it doesn't happen the way you want it to. That's not how it works.Quote:
Convincing others to put aside their differences to attack a common foe is not breaking the cycle. If that was true then Orochimaru broke the cycle of hate when the Sound and Sand villages attacked the Leaf. They are exactly the same scenario. The cycle may get suspended but it always starts up again, even Nagato said this which is why his approach was temporary. The cycle never breaks they're still looking for someone to break it and that person won't be Gaara.Quote:
For their own civil war maybe, but when foreign powers conduct wars in your own territory means your power is insufficient to protect your own borders. You are not a force that can address the full might of the bigger nations.Quote:
Last time I checked Rukia wasn't a lieutenant or a captain when she took hers down and there were other 3rd and lower seeds who destroyed esapada in Kakakura town.Quote:
A history? They were all created after Aizen went to Hueco Mundo a history of maybe 3 months. They served nothing more than being an obstacle for another 1-on-1 fight. They had nice backstories but you could extract almost all of them from the story and the plot would still go on. They weren't essential to the story. The same is true for the Edo Tensei they were a set of disposable enemy lieutenants that the Alliance are meant to overcome. The constraint that Kishi had that others don't is that many of them couldn't be dispelled or killed, just sealed. While that may not be palatable it's better than just fighting a 100,000 zetsu. No one would buy that scenario so Kishi had 2 choices: Edo Tensei or a the Unknown Village of 100,000 Shinobi. Only one of these actually exists so we got the Edo Tensei.
It was foreshadowing it doesn't have to be explained right away, but it points to the real target. That's the purpose of the plot device. That's why you need a statue of Izuna at the waterfall but don't have it. Then there was the plothole that Izuna was dead before Madara. The reason why its Obito and not Izuna is simple. Time. Time is the one element that people in this world can't change. Tsunade could change her looks but she still in her 50's. Why would Izuna wait 60+years until he was in his 80's-90's to attack the world? Why not sooner? Having to connect an old person to someone in the relative present (i.e. Obito meeting Madara) is more practical than having Izuna sit on the sidelines waiting 60 years when he should be pushing a walker to commence an attack on the shinobi world. That's just silly.Quote:
Tsuande is in her 50's. She's the granddaughter of Hashirama. That puts Hashirama at 90 now. So Izuna is in his late 80's early 90's. Why is someone who should be in a wheelchair now combating the entire world where Sarutobi who is 10-15 years younger is already in decline. That a bigger retcon than making Obito Tobi which is chronologically possible. There is a reason why Onoki flies around, he can't walk and has severe health issues. Even he isn't immune to time while Tobi can run around without impairment, A worse retcon.Quote:
Yes, you do. These are two distant points in time. Over 60+ years has passed. Why didn't these events happen sooner? You have to link them together somehow, Kishi chose to take Madara and link him to present via Obito who is tied to this timeline. Next, you need to have Obito have a link to present so he would take a stand against it. That link is Kakashi, Otherwise why would he accept Madara's charge in wanting to change it unless he was wronged somehow. Using Izuna is a much harder sell because not only do you have to explain why the hell it took 60 years to get things ready you have to demonstrate how he capable of functioning as a 90-year old spiteful ninja. Kishi chose the former.Quote:
And what caused Kakashi to kill her, because she was infused with the Sanbi and they had to stop it. And why was she infused with the Sanbi because the Mist village wanted to destroy the Leaf village. Why? Because of a previous grievance. That grievance whatever it was is part of the cycle of hate. The eternal never ending struggle that the shinobi system can't break out of. Obito's actions while selfish in nature has the effect of altering the entire system, It's not a vehicle of fear like Nagato's was but one of illusion that Madara is promoting...supposedly. If it wasn't all-encompassing it wouldn't be much if a threat.Quote:
And in terms of story "time" Pain was calling the shots for a few months then Tobi was for even less. Does it break the space-time continuum, no. The issue is how long did it take Jiraiya to train Minato after he left the Ame orphans, and how much time passed before Obito became a student of Minato. Could all this happen before Yahiko died? There is nothing to really prevent this since graduation dates for various cells were never given.Quote:
Kishi disagrees with you. Obviously dad's talk wasn't sufficient because Kakashi is still hung up on the past almost as much as Tobi is. Kishi also feels the same because Kakashi is still struggling with his personal image of Obito from his past and the present one he is currently fighting.Quote:
I've always hated Obito and always will.
The ten tails is disappointing. It deserved to have its own mind
I hated Madara at first when he was only talking about how great Hashirama was, but now I'm starting to like him in how he takes nothing seriously and just brushes everything off with funny faces
i loved madaras personality at first
now he seems a bit pathetic
not as pathetic as obito though
however i am glad to see obito show some balls last chapter
I always wished that Danzou hadn't died so easily and that Sasuke perhaps killed someone else and was painted as more of a villain who could only be redeemed with self sacrifice through death. It would have then been nice to see Danzou's Konoha vs. Naruto's Konoha. You could then have Danzou worrying about both the alliance and a rebellion, you'd put Gaara in a tough spot because does he stay loyal to Konoha? Or to his friends? Then you start adding in the 3 other major countries and you have one hell of a story.
I honestly always thought Tobi was going to start another war through deceit and lies. Have the villages fight one another, but instead he just united them all. Zetsu's clone ability would have been perfect for this. Say have Temari or Kankuro killed and replaced as a means to manipulate Gaara. Actually have Bee dead so the Raikage would forever hate Sasuke and by proxy Naruto who wanted to defend him. Bring up the bad blood between Konoha and Iwa. There's literally dozens of ways to make this story better, yet Kishi ignored all of that so he could use fan service in an ill attempt to make everyone happy.
This is all of course a pipe dream though.
Last edited by Delbi; July 07, 2013 at 04:00 AM.
Changeing the Danzou encouter would have been interesting like you said but I see a lot of other things around that point of the manga that could have similarly improved this war down the line.
Tobi's idiotic declaration of his plan to the world was a big one.
If that hadn't been done it would have opened up the opportunity for a village like Hidden Rock to actually take Akatsuki's side. There are dozens of possibilities off of that alone.
I think Danzou, the way the turtle island arc was handled, and what happened with Konan all squandered similar opportunities.
jammin you pretty much the nail on the head
edo tensei was ok but it was over used and watered down
and i am ok with tobi being obito, i actually predicted it
i am just not ok with him being such a pusst once his identity was revealed
i like the idea of the two of them.working together
i would think obitos body would have too many limitations for madars fighting style
unless by taking him over he retains all of his own abilites also, like more of a fusion than a take over
Not in-series history, thought their personal histories extend far before Aizen's arrival. You couldn't remove the Espada without radically changing the whole story. The majority of the Espada were very essential to the story. The only one who could be taken out without an effect on the overall plot was Zommari. It's not a constraint when he was the one who came up with it, nor when he had them sealed so easily that it became moot. Again, if he could change the amount of ninjas in the major villages, he could have done the same with the minor villages without problem. Heck, if he was willing to have half of Akatsuki come from the minor villages, then there's no reason he couldn't have made more come from them.
And no, Obito being Tobi wasn't chronologically possible. It screwed up the timeline of events that we had been given involving the Ame orphans and the various wars.