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I know this thread have been around for a while. Always about this vs this but never happen before. However do you guys remember the part where they fight against Zazan the proclaim queen. Each of them have a hard time handling those weak single chimera ants, and they have to get serious, except for Phinks. Feitan he captured Gon quite easily at the York City. Neferpitou is far superior to Zazan. Gon killed Neferpitou with a super mode, does that make Gon stronger than all Ryodan's member on 1 vs 1. What I mean is, Gon last for awhile with Neferpitou without a supermode, I mean he have to be pretty good to last that "SHORT", if is Zazan vs Neferpitou, Zazan would of die in 1 sec.
I think Roydan's only strong members are.
Phinks, Machi, Nobunaga and Uvogin, of course Hisoka and Lucifer., the rest seem like a joke if you imagine them just a little bit stronger than Zazan.
Phinx and Bonolenov completely destroyed their respective opponents without breaking a sweat. Sharnalk was caught by this giant Beetle only because he let his guard down. Nevertheless, he still had a backup plan, and once he used it, he one-shot his two opponents. Karuto even found the time to indulge in some torture after defeating his ennemy (easily).
Shizuku is one of the weakest (if not the weakest) member of the Ryodan because her usefulness lies elsewhere. It had already been stated in the Yorknew Arc, when she was defeated by Gon in arm wrestling. Feitan had trouble because his opponent was genuinely strong, and he still had the upper hand during most of the fight without even fighting seriously, until the moment he got cocky and was blasted away by Zazan's Emission attack. The moment he really got serious, Zazan was completely annihilated.
You seem to be vastly underestimating the Ants. They were not fighting weak foot soldiers, they were fighting Officers and Squadron Leaders.
When did Gon last THAT short ? If I remember, he transformed immediately. Youpi himself stated that Killua and all of the Ants Extermination team are not even tenth of his power.
Oh that made sense, I thought Ryodan fought with all the normal ants, didnt' know they were all official. I haven't read this manga for year, so Gon did tranform right away, I thought he fought for a while before he tranform, but still what I mean is, I was expecting the Ryodan should have clear up those officials without a sweat, I remember Killua's father said something about they are very strong, after he killed one of their member. My guess is that the author didn't balance the power correctly for Ryodan's member.
But yeah you have a point, perharp Ryodan's underestimate those ants, and were careless and got caught on the web, arms etc.
Zazan was obviously a special case. She's not your atypical squadron leader. She left the hive to form her own - only extremely strong willed individuals can defy the ants' biological imperative - OBEY and follow the caste.
Although it's entirely true that I think she would get annihilated by Pitou in seconds. Probably so would Feitan unless he powered up right from the get-go and used more active abilities.
I got a question. check out this page
see that drawing on top right? who is that guy on top of Zeno? I know the 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th......who is that 2nd?
Um there's nothing special about Zazan. The squad leaders are supposed to obey the Queen, who died so they got no one left to obey. Maybe they're supposed to obey Meryem, but we know Meryem pretty much doesn't even care about those guys so there's nothing to defy here. The squad leaders who trained under Pufu are supposed to be stronger than other squad leaders because Pufu is actually pretty good at teaching aura concepts to his subordinates.
In case it's not obvious Gon is clearly meant to be the strongest human in HXH once he hits his peak, and Super Gon might even be stronger than Gon at his peak, not to mention it's questionable whether Gon will ever hit his peak simply because he's not someone that's very interested in training. The point is that only Gon, who is destined to become the strongest human in HXH, can even borrow against that future to defeat Pitou. No one else would have the raw talent to pull it off even if they used the exact same move, and even though it'd have been a double KO if it's 1on1. I don't think you can fault Gon for letting his guard down when his opponent can continue attacking after having his head completely smashed to pieces, and had Killua not arrived on time, Gon would still have died from Pitou's counterattack.
The Spiders aren't really meant to be super strong. There's a reason they're hunted by the Hunters not the other way around, and that they always travel in very large groups. They're near the top of the underworld, but in the world of HXH, the good guys are considerably stronger than the underworld. One of Hisoka's motivation to become a Hunter was that you won't get in trouble for killing people as a Hunter. I'm sure here he's just talking about ordinary cops and stuff (if he's done things serious enough to get hunted by a Hunter he'd have to show up with an alibi similar to Ilumi during the exam). Killua, for example, knows all about the local customs and what to watch for to avoid getting caught when they sneaked in, and again we're talking about ordinary law enforcement here. In general, a well trained professional with the right weapon can give anyone a headache in the world of HXH. Ikalgo's sniper rifle can definitely penetrate an aura user's defense, and the only difference between him and say the sniper in the Yorknew arc is that his sniper rifle has special aura-enhanced rounds designed to penetrate an aura user's defense. Now an ordinary guy isn't going to have aura-enhanced rounds, but surely at the army level they'd definietly have special ammuniation that are strong enough to pierce an aura user's defense.
I disagree about the army thing. The spiders had no problem with the mafia guys in Yorkshin, taking them out without even breaking a sweat. If armies have access to weapons effective against aura users, I'm sure the mafia would have something similar, but they obviously don't. Their solution was their own squadron of nen users, who still easily lost to the Spiders. Finally, they called in the Zoldycks and other assassins.
As far as struggling against the ants, I think that was meant to show the how strong the ants were, rather than the Ryodan's weakness. The squadron leaders and their officers were easily able to beat some low level Nen users, even before getting their Nen abilities.
Well, the issue with the ryodan is that when we have seen them we have not actually seen them fight gon or killua. Overall gon and killua have been relatively weak nen users through most of the manga. Killua has pulled through because of his past and gon has pulled through, surprisingly, through wits and guts. Overall both of them have generally won by outsmarting people well stronger than them. Killua did not stand a chance in a straight fight against bomber and yet he won via tricks and whatnot. Gon was inferior to gensuru in terms of fighting skills and basically every aspect of nen and yet he won thanks to his careful planning.
Ryodan are all high level nen users with overall highly developed abilities. They are not the sort that gon and killua ever stood a chance against. As far as we know their level's of strength could vary wildly between members but then again gon and killua would be so comparatively weak to any of them that to them it would not really make a difference whether they are fighting the weakest ryodan or chrollo.
Now, the issue here is that what we have seen does not quite give us something which can be used to measure strength of different characters that simply. What we know is rather vague when it concerns how strong people actually are. Even now gon and killua are at best mid level hunters in terms of amount of aura and when it comes to actually using it they are still rookies (in particular the part about moving aura around their bodies). Heck, gon and killua could not even hold a candle against knuckle and shoot when it came to nen and while strong they are not necessarily all that high in the power scale.
I guess it ultimately comes down to the sheer amount of variables that are at play in a nen battle. The first would be overall skill and nen, then how hatsu's match up against one another and even after that there are still a huge amount of variables that come into play. There is planning, strategy, surroundings, mood, mental state.... Heck, as far as we were told the royal guard members were all significantly superior to netero in terms of amount of nen. And then again netero was superior to them in terms of skill with nen.
For us to have a clue of how strong ryodan members actually are I would think we would need to at least see them fighting people who we know how they compare to others. Say, a ryodan member against a knuckle.... If the match is close it would tell us (only to a limited extent) just how much of a severe beating they would be able to give gon. If knuckle gets his ass handed to him easily then it would tell us gon and killua now are still overall overwhelmingly inferior and thus we have little to tell us just how much stronger a high level nen user is.
The whole point of the mafia was that they're just a bunch of guys with machine guns without the training or the right equipment so of course they get destroyed fighting a group of aura users. While in NGL, Kite was saying amateurs can't defeat Ants even with military grade weapons (since NGL didn't really have a professional army). What exactly is so special about Ikalgo's sniper rifle compared to a normal sniper other than that his ammo is reinforced by aura? And yet aura doens't really come close to what speciaized equipment can do. The lobster guy can blow up another Ant's body quite easily (when he suspected Ikalgo was a spy) but his aura blasts has no effect on reinforced steel. Now of course since the existence of aura itself is secret in itself of course you're not going to commonly have these special equipment around, but it'd be absurd if the armies of the world don't have weapons that can deal with human beings who don't even come close to the durability or destruction power of modern vehicles.
The whole point of HXH is that the army is overwhelming stronger than a group of super powerful humans. I know toward the end it got crazy with Killua saying he can take out fighter jets. Actually, just ask yourself for a moment. How can he possibly do that? He can't even hit the Dragonfly Ant in air flying in a visible distance. Is he supposed to do a dragon punch and hit a fighter jet flying several kilometers above ground? Is he supposed to throw his yoyo that far to knock it down?
For the Spiders, people grossly overrate their power. It's not clear if the entire Spiders put together can even do anything meaningful against a single Royal Guard. They wouldn't necessarily even be able to stall for any meaningful time against an opponent of such calibur, and yet Gon and Killua is expected to stall Pitou by themselves. Killua's lightning speed alone is crazily overpowered because you can't hit him and you can't avoid his hits. He can hurt someone like Pufu who has regeneration by frying his skin (and Pufu can withstand the heat wave from a Rose fine) and you expect human flesh to withstand that? The participants of the Chimaera Ants are way out of the Spider's league, even on the human side. The Spiders fought against the grunt Ants 1on1 with the exception of Feitan and it took them some effort to do it, while Killua fought an entire squad at the same time and he was already tired from previous fights, and he fought several guys who had very respectable abilities (Ikalgo and the fish siblings) by himself.
The Spiders used 6 guys to defeat an Ant squad. Several members were hurt, even ones who are specialized in combat. An Ant squad in the battle at the palace isn't even a unit of measure worth discussing. The Royals consider the squad level Ants to be of no use. Morel was fighting Pitou's remote controlled army and squad leaders at the same time and winning relatively comfortably. In the actual assault on the palace we see Killua took out two grunts in one frame, while the same grunts managed to drag on for a while against the Spiders.
Honestly the power level by the Ant arc is pretty out of control. Killua can pretty much annihiliate any human character with just his lightning speed. This is probably why neither Killua nor Gon fought anyone else meaningfully after the Ant arc because they'd just be totally destroying the opposition.
-Phinx completely destroyed his opponent without any kind of trouble.
-Ditto for Bonolenov.
-Ditto for Karuto.
-Sharnalk was caught by this giant Beetle only because he let his guard down. Nevertheless, he still had a backup plan, and once he used it, he one-shot his two opponents.
-Shizuku had some trouble (and she wasn't in such a bad situation, actually), but she's one of the weakest (if not the weakest) member of the Ryodan. Yet she managed to win without any kind of injury.
-Feitan had trouble because his opponent was genuinely strong, and he still had the upper hand during most of the fight without even fighting seriously, until the moment he got cocky and was blasted away by Zazan's Emission attack. The moment he really got serious, Zazan was completely annihilated.
And they were not fighting "grunts", as you say. They were fighting Officers and a Squadron Leader, who are dangerous foes (Rammot, an Officer, managed to hold his own against two powerful Nen users before learning Nen, and managed to survive not one, but two powerful Nen attacks).
I think you are grossly underestimating the Spiders. Of course the entire Spider put together could stall a single Royal Guards, they could even stall the three of them really. And when you say "the participants of the Chimaera Ants are way out of the Spider's league, even on the human side", that's just not true. Netero is the only one much stronger than the Spiders. We know for sure Silva and Zeno are as strong as Chrollo, and Morel and Knov are certainly as strong if not stronger than the strongest Spiders (such as Uvogin, Phinx and Feitan). I'm not sure about Knuckle and Shoot, but they can't possibly be stronger than Feitan, Uvogin or Phinx. And Gon and Killua stronger than the Spiders ? No way. They could probably hold their own much better than before, but they would still be defeated at the end.
In the end what that means is that for normal army folks, they would be up against a generally very fast moving target that can crumple tanks with some effort. Normal assault rifles do no damage, and the hypothetical specialized rifles with specialized ammunition are obviously larger and much much heavier and therefore cumbersome to use. I'd imagine that the army would have an advantage in terms of destructive force. Missiles fired from jets, artillery, mortar, carpet bombing and so on and so forth can and should equal the destructive power of a nen infused attack. I suspect Emitters would also cause substantial damage - you see Franklin shooting down helicopters in York Shin. And here we are talking about a straight up attack. There are guys with all sorts of messed up Nen abilities. Imagine Fun Fun Cloth being used to shrink tanks, Bungee Gum being used to reflect bullets and rockets - and so on.
No doubt an army could take out the Ants - if not NGL - with nukes. But then you're talking about DEFCON 6 level of threat. In a sustained state of war Nen users wouldn't even go straight up against the army nor would their locations be known. They'd attack strategic installations, assassinate military commanders, manipulate the higher-ups to cause a political change and so on. It would be ugly and the Nen users would probably hold their own for a while.
To be fair, they've never fought Ants before. I suspect in the coming arcs though if the Spiders appear they'll be advertised as one of the stronger nen users out there, definitely stronger than Gon and Killua.Quote:
None of the Chimera ants extermination team can possibly hope to defeat Uvogin 1 on 1. Aside from Netero of course. Statements like "the CAE team is way out of the Ryodan's league" is impossible to even consider.