The only card Byakuya HAD left to play was to reach his limit with kido, the true purpose of Senkei ceremony, and the true limits of Shuukei Hakuteiken.
Kido: I think Byakuya is probably in the top 7 kido users in the Gotei 13. But besides Danku and Rikujokoro we don't know much about how effectively he can use it. What made me rage during the As Nodt fight was how poorly he performed and didn't even use his signature kidos. If anything As Nodt's ability left him mentally paralyzed and he didn't think to do them. In the future he may be a kido only fighter without his sword which seemed to be dead and bankai stolen.
Senkei: All Byakuya ever used this for was to essentially fight with ordinary zanjutsu with what is apparently a sharper blade. This flies in the face of the very purpose of Senbon Zakura which is to scatter and overwhelm. Byakuya at one point called out an extra and stabbed Ichigo's foot. I still think Byakuya may not have mastered Senkei and he may one day control them all. Even his ordinary bankai he can't control all the blades but instead direct them generally in a direction and around his safe zone.
Shuukei: All of Byakuya's power focused in a single point in a form that frankly resembles Yoriuchi's Shunkou. The problem is we don't know if it's truly a one shot move like FGT or if Byakuya could maintain and fight in that form for an extended period of time. Many will argue that this technique and Senkei are weak as Ichigo easily overcame them back in the day. This is were opinions come in and I personally believe Byakuya threw the fight between he and Ichigo.
The future: Byakuya frankly should have died after how badly he lost. I'm one of his biggest fans but even I'll say that he had a poor showing against Tsukishima and As Nodt. I blame Kubo's writing in part. Now that his sword crumbled to dust I think his Asauchi/zanpakutou base is dead and gone. His bankai has nowhere to return to. Orihime or Nimaiya may restore it but I hope not frankly. I think Byakuya had his time in the spotlight and long served his purpose. I think he may surprise us with Kido still but he should abdicate his position as captain and focus on grooming Rukia into bankai and eventually becoming head of the family herself. Imagine if Byakuya is the last line of SS defense should the Gotei invade VR. Renji's the hardworker that has strove to become stronger, and we know Nimaya is helping him. It's only natural that at least temporarily, Renji and Rukia should be fighting in Byakuya's stead and surpass him eventually. The permanence of Byakuya's retirement can be up for debate.
A funny possibility is if Byakuya restores his powers through fullbring and uses his scarf to activate it. Fullbring's got to have relevance beyond the fullbring arc... Right? Right? oh welll...
2. In a one vs one fight, is where Zommari should hold the advantage if anything. With more combatants around he's ability is further increased in efficacy. Zommari's placement within the Espada was rightfully deserving from his feats.
3. He didn't necessarily need bankai to defeat him though. He only went bankai to prove a point and because he was angered at Zommari for using Rukia as a puppet. Goukei is still Byakuya's weakest form of bankai. It's just a formation Byakuya created. Shikai could and apparently would have been enough. 1000+ small blades are still greater than 50 eyes.
4. I wont argue this anymore, because the fights actually taking place within the tournament. You can see my thoughts on the match-up there.
Mayuri is generally accepted as physically, one of the weakest captains. Conditionally, he can be threat to anyone. The same goes for Urahara, but I don't see what this has to do with how strong Byakuya actually is?
Anyone that wanted to seek out that title probably could have, but didn't. The Kenpachi title as a whole is kind of vague. So trying to validate this title alone won't get you far.Quote:
Yeah zaraki definitely will be one of the strongest when this all ends, thing is, he will not be alone.
Last edited by Crystal Black; June 26, 2013 at 07:14 AM.
But since I never actually answered the main question...
I would just say he's an above average Captain, but I don't really think there's any such thing as 'average Captain level'. Yes, some are stronger than others, but it's not that simple. Obviously you've got Yama, who's in a world of his own, then you've got Unohana who has all her skill, and Zaraki who has all his reiatsu, etc etc. Every Captain has their unique expression of Captain-class, if you see what I mean there is no average. I just think it's tricky to say where Byakuya lies, because I don't think there's any other Captain he could just walk all over.
I don't know. Byakuya's reiatsu is probably stronger than a couple of others', and he has the cool-headedness and quick thinking to utilise his skillset as appropriate. He's definitely very capable. Good with Kido, good with Shunpo, and his Bankai is very versatile.
Last edited by NoOneInParticular; June 26, 2013 at 10:57 AM.
hmm.. interesting thread-
currently byakuya is weak.
He is injured, and has no bankai.
he is getting healed, but until the plot develops we will not know if his bankai can be returned to him, or replaced by nimaya.
You bring up a really, really interesting point. With Senbonzakura in enemy hands, what will be done to assist him in being able to fight? Obviously, this is not the time to be throwing aside any capable fighter. And even without bankai, a recovered Byakuya will be able to fight. He still has powerful flash step, kido and agility. I just wonder if they can restore his bankai, or if he will have to convince another asauchi to bond with him. But, if that happened, would he 'lose' Senbonzakura for good? Would he end up having to 'kill' his former zanpakutou?
I anticipate that Byakuya will be challenged in some way, as Ichigo and Renji were, to prove his worthiness to receive more power to use for fighting. And once he does, he will reach full power, with or without Senbonzakura. It wouldn't make sense for him to be saved and taken to the spirit realm on King's orders unless he, too, was going to get stronger.
I'm sticking with my theory that byakuya will return a straight up boss top tier killing machine after the royal guard training. I'm thinking top 2-3 in current soul society. Pretty all these upgrades if put him at number 5 or so. Being as well rounded as byakuya is is a very useful trait with all the diversity of the opposition to the shinigami.
All you saying Renji, Ichigo and Byakuya getting RG training are so cruel!!!
What about Rukia? She's with them in the Royal Realm!!
But let us just forget about the one who doesn does not have bankai.
Well, if I have to rate captains' strength for me it would be like this (ukitake excluded, I have no idea of how to deal with him):
4.- Gin, byakuya, soifon, hitsugaya
5.- Komamura, mayuri, tousen
I am unsure of where to put the vizards overall. They have their masks which are a big boost but in turn it does seem to deplete their stamina rather quickly. We hardly saw them using their masks against aizen....
Now, one way or the other, would any given captain have an easy victory over the other between groups 4 and 5 which is where you would find the most captains? Of course not. I don't think soifon is actually stronger than byakuya however if he is hit by her bankai he dies, period. Even barragan only survived because he had the benefit of being a hybrid and thus had a naturally more resilient body (IMO). Its basically the same deal with just about any other fight. Perhaps the more appropriate question would be who has the strongest reiatsu in which case I would indeed put byakuya 4th. But then again the question gets quite muddled up if you add in the vizards who have hollow powers which very specifically increase reiatsu.
I would agree with your choice for the most part, except for Shunsui's position. Well, he is the Captain Commander, thus he is the strongest Shinigami in Gotei right now. It was proven by Yama, since he said that he was the Captain Commander for 1000 years, since there was noone stronger than him. And he appointed Shunsui for the next Captain Commander, thus it's logical that he is the strongest one. He was stronger than Unohana and I believe he would be still stronger than current Kenpachi unless Ken-chan learned Bankai by some chance. Though I would say that the margin between current Shunsui and current Kenpachi shouldn't be significant. Either can win, but going by Shunsui's tricky Shikai and the fact that he also has Bankai...
About Ukitake... I would put him after Unohana, but higher than your 4th grade even though the difference won't be that big. Still I should agree that he is an unknown factor, since he mostly has hype, but he did pretty well in the current War and he still has Bankai that might be quite a changer as well.
Abouty the Vaizards... I would put them above your 4th grade according to the 2 things:
1. They were already quite powerful Captains in TBP Arc that was more than 200 years ago
2. And after that they got a great boost in Reiatsu and physical capabilities due to their Hollowfication.
About Byakuya in particular... He is strong. None can doubt it, but to put him higher than others from your 4th grade, I don't think we should do it. I think overall Soi Fong might be the weakest among this grade, but it's also by a small margin. We should also consaider that some of their abilities compensate their lack in other departments. I would say Gin is overall not that great. He is quite average and without his Bankai I would have put him in the 5th grade, but his Bankai lets him be on par with this group, since it's quite strong. The same goes for Hitsugaya. His Bankai is just very strong, especially with his ultimate tech that freezes people to death and it was implied he improved his Bankai significantly, but it was stolen, so we won't see it for quite a long time. At the same time Byakuya seemed to hit his limit in terms of Zanpaktou development, since it seemed that already, when he fought Ichi he practically developed it to the best state. After that he only developed its speed for a bit, but overall nothing changed that much, but Byakuya is overall the most versatile fighter and round-up fighter in this group. His Kidou is better than the other fighters from this group, his Zanjutsu as well, while his Shunpo looses to Soi Fong, but I don't see it as a desisive factor, especially since he has a great defense with his Bankai, so she won't be able to get him with her speed.
So overall, I think Byakuya is at his place. He is strong, but not as strong or stronger that the likes of Kenpachi and elder Captains.
I almost agree with this ranking, except that I would place Byakuya above Soi Fon and Hitsugaya (well, unless you mean Hitsugaya of the very short time period when he had his improved bankai not yet stolen ; this Hitsugaya might be very strong, but it's too early to tell).
All in all, I think Byakuya's power level is in severe need of being upgraded if he is to continue being as cool as he was until now with captain-level opponents.
I mean, as it has been said, he is a well rounded, intelligent and experimented fighter, but it seems it is not enouh anymore. He struggled against Zomari, he got his ass miserably kicked against As Nodt (who to be fair might be significantly stronger than some of the other fodder SR like Shaz Domino or the ones killed by Kenpachi).
He lost against a very inexperimented Ichigo in SS's arc, which is maybe the strongest indicator that he is not currently very powerful.
Even though Kenpachi lost even prior to Ichigo's learning of bankai, there has been a special explanation why. There hasn't been for Byakuya, and I think that is why Kubo decided to make him lose this bad, to get the opportunity to receive special training at the hand of division zero and get up to level of this part of the manga.
Truth is, as cool as he is, and even though he was definitely a strong captain compared to the likes of Soi Fon (who embarrasses herself almost every time we see her), Komamura, Tousen (who got the most ridiculous death ever), his current power is insignificant in the upcoming battle.
Now that the correspondence between letters and ranking of the Sternritters has been better represented, those saying that Byakuya getting 'miserably defeated' (Byakuya's own assessment of the battle as per Mangapanda) by As Nodt means that he was weak should think about the fact that the three Sternritters that Kenpachi killed were ranked 'Q', 'R' and 'Y', meaning that they were way lower on the totem pole than the ones that the four captains who lost their bankai fought. Also, as Sternritter 'F', As Nodt was nearly the highest ranked Sternritter shown, at the time, besides Bach and Haschwald.
Before anyone points out that Sternritter 'Y' wore down the head captain, remember that having a tricky power may have a great use in a particular situation, but remember too that Bach told Royd 'not to do anything' and 'not to try to steal the captain commander's bankai'...so basically, all he had to do was survive until Bach's return, which is a whole different ballgame than head to head fighting.
I will agree with an earlier responder who placed Byakuya's power near that of 'held back' Kenpachi. That was fine before, but as the last respondent said, that is not going to 'cut it' now. Byakuya is ripe for a big upgrade, and being in the royal palace, being healed by the most capable healers, he will soon either go through challenges comparable to Ichigo's and Renji's, or the king or Royal Guard might assist him in some way. So, just as Zaraki got a boost by receiving the 'Kenpachi' title officially, Byakuya will advance. And I'll say it again...as the most powerful leader in the Kuchiki clan's history and as the leader of the greatest of the noble clans, I don't think he will be much lower in power than Kenpachi. Sorry, divine intervention means he will be extremely powerful when he returns. So, those whining that Byakuya should 'step down' and 'let Renji have his Captain's position'? You are dreaming! (Not naming names because I don't feel like going to search for them! )
I do think that Byakuya will want and need Renji at his side during the rematch with As Nodt. And the two will kick ass together. I pointed out in an earlier post that it was no coincidence that Kubo had Byakuya talking to Renji about the deep loyalty of Yamamoto's vice captain. The two have come a long way during the manga and this is where Renji should step up in the fight and work at his captain's level. I am sure Renji will be a captain, at some point, but he is loyal to Byakuya and was traumatized by seeing Byakuya struck down in front of him. He is going to make sure that his captain is better protected, and that Byakuya doesn't have to be distracted with protecting him, this time.
In the end, I don't think it's so important which captain trumps which. They are on the same side, and all of them will be important in the coming battles.
Last edited by Firebird0ne; July 03, 2013 at 05:05 PM.
I doubt it reflects a particular ranking system. Yeah, the letter A and B looks like they are pretty much reserved for the commander and his right hand man, but others still were named after their powers, like Fear, Overkill, Roar and Yourself. If letters were a system of ranking, Bambietta would be As Nodt's superior, something I don't find possible judging by how strong the latter was.
Regarding the upcoming battles, well.. He will be in fight for sure. You can expect him to get his Bankai back and destroy As Nodt as a payback, and all those who have lost their Bankai have been doing something to compensate for that, implying that they won't sit aside and watch others fighting, so yeah, Byakuya and the rest will be significant enough.
2. Byakuya getting power-up in Royal Palace. He was sent there, because SS couldn't heal him. Noone said anything about getting some huge powerup. BUt fanboy logic always works that way. Noone is saying anything about huge powerup for Ichigo or Renji. They're irrelevant! Because we all know, that Renji and Ichigo are there for bankai remodelling. Noone expects nothing else from THEM. But for Byakuya, you expect crazy power-up, suddenly. Why only him? BECAUSE HE IS HEAD OF THE NOBLE HOUSE. So what? We've been already shown, that there are people like Kaien, Hitsugaya and Gin who had more talent. Being a head of a noble house DOESN'T make you all powerful. He was just born there, that's all. I just can't express how ridicoulous it is in my opinion.
Imagine fight between Byakuya in non-shikai and Kenpachi in non-shikai. How many seconds would Byakuya last? 5? 10? And now Kenpachi has his limiter lifted, shikai and bankai to acquire. There's no way in hell, that Byakuya will be even close to his power. It is Kenpachi who is "War Potential". It's Kenpachi's role to be stronger than other captains and it is him who Juha Bach considers dangerous. I can't see how training a captain, who reached his potential in Soul Palace can make him 10x times more powerful than he already is. And yes, by saying 10 times I mean it. Bankai gives you 5-10x boost in power. Shikai gives similar boost. Now imagine, that Byakuya, who was on par with limited Kenpachi in non-Shikai, by your logic, should be near Bankai Kenpachi without limit. I just can't see it. The only thing that can save your Byakuya is fanboy rage and Kubo making him as strong as Kenpachi to please his fans. If so, then Renji is coming back as a monster, as he will have his Bankai remodeled, he will be trained just as Byakuya. And the most important thing, he has ROOM TO GROW. Something Byakuya really doesn't. While using his Bankai he has no new attacks, he has to improvise (Tsukishima). He has reached peak of his abilities in Shunpo, he is very profficient in Kido, he has pretty good reiatsu. Where can he improve? Hakuda and Reiatsu? How much of a boost can it be? Is it enough to catch up with like 20x stronger Kenpachi? If so, Renji is now stronger than every captain. Kenpachi is SS's joker. And you want to tell me, that Byakuya and Renji will come back just as strong? Who needs training? Just send every captain to SP for a while and they'll come back 20x times stronger, right? Even Komamura would mop the floor with CC then!
Last edited by Duniak; July 04, 2013 at 05:32 AM.
Byakuya isn't powerful because of being born a noble. He is the strongest leader in the history of the Kuchiki clan, and the leader of the strongest of the noble clans. The noble clans, as has been stated more than once in the manga, tend to produce exceptionally talented shinigamis. That's a fact. And Byakuya being at the top of that heap says something about his power. Also, Kubo has played up the connection between Byakuya and Kenpachi as 'frenemies' all through the manga. Add to that the fact that Kenpachi tries to goad Byakuya into fighting and try to remember that Kenpachi wouldn't have an interest in doing that if Byakuya wouldn't make a worthy opponent. I know you don't like it, but Byakuya is powerful, and he is going to be powered up like everyone else. And like all of the other captains, he will play an important role in the battles.
And look, as long as Byakuya is still breathing, he's got room to grow. I'd say he has more possibilities because Senbonzakura may have been destroyed and, if so, you don't know what will take its place.
And you might want to tone down your rhetoric about the 'fanboy' thing. just because you disagree does not give you the right to be rude to others here. You don't know anything about me, so you really shouldn't be drawing wild conclusions.
Have you tried warm milk to soothe that hot temper of yours? I prefer a good herbal tea, myself.