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Captain-class is still very much relevant, although it's true with the arrival of the Royal Guard and certain other people we do seem to be entering a stage of even stronger guys entering the fray. Still, the strength of Kido has everything to do with who's using it, so there's no reason to think these guys aren't going to make use of it too.
as for aizen, his power is sealed, but he doesnt look the same as he did before all the transformations, i think some changes remain, like being half hollow half shinigamy, but the power he gained from the hogioku can easily be regained if uruharas seal is removed, and that will aslo probably happen eventually.
The first thing about Kido is that there are different types used for different purposes. Hado is used for attacking, but Bakkudo is used to restrain an enemy. If a Shinigami is facing an insanely agile opponent, and their Bankai is powerful but sluggish, they may consider using a high-level Bakkudo to restrain the enemy before they whallop them with their Bankai. A clever use of Bakkudo was also demonstrated against Barragan, where Bakkudo was used to increase the effectiveness of Soifon's Bankai by containing its blast within a set of barriers, along with Barragan. Also remember that Kido was ultimately used to destroy him, which couldn't have been achieved with Bankai (unless there was an individual present who had a Bankai with the ability to surround an object with a barrier and teleport it).
The second thing about Kido is that several can be combined together. Even the most powerful Bankai may not hold a candle to half a dozen high-level Hado attacks mixed together. "But how in the hell can you launch several high-level Hado WITH incantations against an enemy???...they're not just gonna politely stand there whilst you recite an entire novel!!!"...well, you use Bakkudo to restrain them first!!!
The final thing about Kido that I'll mention is that its simply an alternative to other techniques. A prime example where Kido might be used is in the current arc against the Vandenreich; I bet we'll see a battle soon where a captain-level Shinigami loses their Bankai to a medallion, but manages to win against their opponent by the skilled use of Kido...
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...after all, he would hardly be a special war potential if he were useless!!!...
The first thing to consider would be whether a shinigami could catch with a bakudo an opponent who is more agile and faster though.
Well, my issue with the point you are making is that you are using hachi as an example. It is my belief that hachi can never be used as an example for what using kido should be like since hachi is such an exception among shinigami. Using hachi as an example for what should be the norm, or not even that, just vaguely resemble the norm is IMHO ultimately every bit as absurd as suggesting the norm for offensive power should be zanka no tachi north. Hachi and tessai are well capable of fighting solely with kido, we know that given their ability to use consecutive high level kido without incantations, however such a thing is ultimately not attainable for most shinigami (IMHO).
On the final point I agree and disagree. Kido can be effective in battle however it also cannot replace something like bankai for shinigami. Overall IMO the most we can expect from regular captain class shinigami in terms of kido is what byakuya has shown us. The guy used a freaking leve 89th bakudo in the middle of a battle with no incantation, that is huge IMO. Byakuya has used kido to a great degree in the manner you describe but at the same time it has never been a triumph card, it has been a complement for what he already is good at. The more senior captains have not really displayed offensive kido in battle however the one captain who seems skilled at it at large has only used a handful of them (byakurai, sokatsui, that 6 rod rokusomethingsomething and danku) for extremely specific purposes and to complement what he was doing.
Also consider this. The captains as of now have to fight vandenreich without bankai at large. Now, how good at kido should they be in order to be able to fight with a full powered stern riter without bankai? A stern ritern potentially has the quincy equivalent to kido, holy arrows, their letter abilities, hirenkyaku, volstandig and potentially a shinigami's stolen bankai. Now, the scenario you are suggesting is that captain class shinigami should be able to overcome all of that with smart use of kido. Now, assuming kido was a skill which any captain class shinigami could acquire to such a degree wouldn't the shinigami still be at a massive disadvantage? Just from comparing shinigami to quincy abilities it is obvious kido is not something which shinigami really hold over quincy because quincy have their own variation of kido to begin with. And even then, aren't the odds of a shinigami overcoming volstandig or bankai with kido and smarts overall absurdly low? The most obvious example of the sheer difference bankai makes would be the fight between byakuya and ichigo. The fight was basically even when both of them were using shikai however the moment byakuya activated bankai shikai ichigo became fodder.
The few shinigami who have shown some level of kido proficiency in battle safe for tessai and hachi are yamamoto, aizen, urahara and byakuya. Yamamoto's only kido was one where he lost his arm. Urahada needed to use incantations for level 90th kido. Aizen was in the same boat and the manga specifically said that level 90th kido without the incantation did not give him good results (not even a third of its intended power). Urahara's important feat in battle in regards to kido would be the moment when he used consecutive bakudo to seal aizen more than the level 90th kido he hit aizen with. Byakuya seems to have developed highly specific kidos for very specific moments at large so far rather than developing a wide array of them. Now, every shinigami which I just mentioned is ultimately extremely talented... Wouldn't that imply that the extremely limited kido which they have shown so far is the most that just "extremely talented" shinigami can acquire? Its not that shinigami are negligent with kido, its that they have to be as exceptional as anyone I just mentioned to just get to that level of kido. Which takes us back to my point that hachi and tessai are bad points of references to the whole thing because even a fraction of their skill at kido is literally impossible for most extremely talented guys around. Its not a matter of giving it time or working hard, it just can't be done... It would be like asking why can't every talented golf player be like tiger woods.
Kido serves two purposes in Bleach:
-it makes fighting more interesting than simple sword-play.
-as a form of magic, it provides a useful tool for the author to advance the plot.
my point with this is that if there is a possibility that kido can be very usefull in the future, even if that possibility comes only from a theory that tries to explain what is going on rather then coming from actual evidence, it is not a reason to disbelive that theory, only we cant say its right either, form what we saw in bleach so far kido seems rather dificult to use at all, but at the same time we dont know much about kido at all, that leaves a lot of open space for ideas on how it would be possible at this last arc for some captains to use kido very well, well enough to make a major diference in the fights, form what everything you said about kido i do not believe that it is not going to be used, but rather, that it is being saved for something greather, it shows that there is much room to improve on kido, and i believe that some people are going to make it somehow, maybe when we see a good explanation on how kido works this will become clear, but i think that everthing that happened with kido so far foreshadows it being used to much greather efect, we always get a little taste of it only for it to be taken from our mouths before we can savor it, the behavior of the author when showing us kido gives me an enourmous feeling of expectation and wanting more, and i do believe that he did it on pourpouse, kubo is saving the best use of kido for last, and when that happens the reason why it can be used efectively in battle will be revealed and will come from where we least expect, that is, we who did not try to come up with seemingly crazy ideas on how to make kido trully badass.
well, aside from all of that, i have something more concrete to say, there are people that we can be prty sure will be able to use kido instead of bankai, that is, yoruichi because of her thechnique that fuses kiod with other techniques (i forgot its name), soi fon if she also learns how to use it, and last but not least, the most underused character in bleach, tessai.
Tessai was the kido captain 100 years ago, if the captain/vice captain relation holds true for him and hachi, then while hachi could fight using kido instead of shikai, then tessai should be able to do the same but fighting at bankai level with just kido, he is the only one i am absolutely sure can do it, but we must also remember that there are new kido captain/vice captain, and with 100 years to train, its possible that they have reached theese same levels, in fact, its possible that being able to fight with only kido (at shikai or bankai level) is a requirment to be a captain or vice captain in the kido corps, that wouldnt surprise me in the least considering that its the kido corps, a division that specializes in kido and is even separate from the gotei 13 (implying its very speccial).
Also remember the royal guards, they are suposed to be freaking strong, and given how long some of them have been in ofice, there is no telling what they can do with kido, i wouldnt be surprised if oneof them fights using an arsenall of kido he/she developed him/herself.
so even if the captains cannot in the end use kido super efectively, we can rest assured that this list of people i showed you will, also there is the possibility that there is actually a super kido talent like zaraki is for strength, ther can be someone who is relatively new in the kido corps (joined in less then 100 years) that is super talented in kido, learning it with ease abd thus becoming a powerhouse in it.
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Last edited by SoulAuron; July 02, 2013 at 02:42 PM.
In the end I'm finding it exstremely likely that Kubo simply just doesn't have much interest in drawing Kido, and I believe it's as simple as that considering how the manga has been folding out over the years. Kubo made the potential of Kido being great, he made the building blocks, he made Kido absolutely deadly and powerful.
We know some pretty deadly Kido, we know how fast Kido can be cast, and we know how powerful some characters can be, and we know intelligence is required for good Kido.
It's just... We have never seen all that combined, despite that some characters should have all that, like Tessai for one.
After all this, I'm of the opinion that Kudo is simply not interested in showing the potential of Kido, it could if Kubo wanted to draw the potential he shows, be the Sharingan of Bleach.
Then perhaps, maybe it's a good thing we don't have that Yet, I can't help but miss seeing more Kido!
IMO, at the end of the day Kido is a useful tool which could potentially win a fight alone.....but that's in the hands of the right user. The problem is, most Shinigami haven't demonstrated the full potential of Kido because, as many have said, they have their Shikai and Bankai. I believe that Kido may have been used in a time before the Asauchi were invented, to supplement the Shinigami's limitations on manifesting their powers, but ever since then the Shinigami have basically cast it aside (no pun intended) and neglected its potential...
So I think in this arc, they're probably going to learn their lesson. Without Bankai, the Shinigami are going to have to revive the study of this lost art and pray that they can gain enough skill in it just to merely survive against the Vandenreich...
And if Ichigo didn't use Mugetsu there would be no victory as well. This thread is about using Kido in actual battles. Using a hidden seal is not really what this topic is all about. Urahara used crazy Kido that he invented, that was like the most powerful thing we saw so far (Mugetsu excluded). It was a technique that could one-shot Aizen without Hogyoku. But this topic is about fights like Byakuya vs Zommari (at the very end) and Byakuya vs Renji, when he used binding techniques or shield to block Zommari's ability. Hachigen vs Barragan and Menos Grandes are good examples too. In actual battles, kido isn't commonly used now.
which brings me to my idea that uruharas zan actually can modify kido, with this its more correct to say that he indeed used kido, even if the seal he used on aizen was modified by benihime, which is unlikely considering he didnt cast it from his zan and that it is not red, it would still be kido even if modified.
also he called it kido as oposed to every character with kido based zanpakuto, they never refer to theyr zan abilities as kido, but as the ability of theyr zan, uruhara called his seal kido, meaning that it is not an ability from his zan.
and you asked about it being used as an usefull plot development tool, i just showed you it was.
It's been too long since someone used Kido. Kubo should draw a pure kido fight one of these days. Or maybe a fight of kido vs Quincy spells. I wonder how kido originated anyway, maybe it was created by Ichibei or something, just like Nimaiya created the zanpakuto.
If his Zanpakuto lets him use his reiatsu freely, using it however he likes (red byakurai), making a shield, making a getsuga, making bala, creating seals. Maybe it's like Ukitake's zanpakuto, but source of power is not external, but internal Ukitake's zanpakuto channels external force, amplifies it, sends back. Urahara channels Kido through his sword, amplifies it, shoots it. By channeling it through his sword it becames red.Quote:
Seal was development tool, not a Kidos themselves. The only techniques that counted were those that Urahara invented. Aizen commented on how those Bakudos are NOTHING. We are talking like Aizen using Danku to stop Tessai, Byakuya using Danku to stop Zommari, Ukitake using Repel in fight with Lilynette. In a normal fight, it's not used. And if Urahara's zanpakuto ability is as I wrote, then him using anything other than Kido would be suspicious... :P