It makes a lot of sense. Bijuu can be considered like friendly pets. Dogs or stray dogs can be trained to become killers. The vice versa combination of meaning is apparent. Even if the comparison doesn't work, the point of my post is apparent, as well.
Well, of course. People and shinobi are retarded. The world needed a person like Naruto who will bring order to this shitstorm. Besides, no one else had the experience with Bijuu as Naruto did. No one even thought about it since they were labeled as weapons of destruction or masses of hatred. Naruto was the only one with the balls to actually know them. For example, if Kiba got that same chance, he wouldn't kill them off as well. Or any other similar character. Anyone with a common sense, decency and a healthy morale can never kill beings who have no ill intentions.
I guess most,if not all the meat eaters are retarded unethical dirty scumbags.Besides the very person who you have as your avatar believed in killing a few to prevent a greater number of deaths.He probably had killed kids who knew nothing and he has certainly killed these guys.
And who knows how many like those who probably had lost their ability to kill people as they aged.Not every one is Chiyo or Hiruzen.But Sasuke would be a retarded demon pig for trying to kill some beings to prevent a greater number of deaths,if not something that can end the world.Yes the problem are indeed the humans themselves,But they aren't going to be all lovey-dovey.Some or the other guy would yield to his greed and try to live a better life by exploiting people abusing his power in whatever form it may be in.It will not be just because he is soo retarded that he just "doesn't understand people".But I guess this is how it's going to be in the manga
Yeah, that's the gist of it. Nuclear weapons won't destroy humans by themselves. That's why the saying goes, guns don't kill people, people kill people. It's the perfect example of how we can correlate real life with this story. The reason they're benevolent and conscious are the sole reasons for them not to be destroyed. The guarantee depends on the humans, not the weapons, that's what's it's about. If Bijuu or or nuclear weapons are removed, and a human wants to wage war, he'll simply find another way to cause it. Therefore, it's about people/humans, not weapons.
The point of your post does not exist because the bijuu are different from stray dogs. Even if the bijuu are killed, they regenerate, which would delay the bad guys' plans and allow the good guys to either stop them or prepare to take them down later on. This is a much better and logical step than "saving" the bijuu, but putting the entire world in danger. Realistically, Madara or Tobi would have likely taken out most of the opposition, and their plans would likely be achieved by now. Since it's a shounen though, of course we'll see Naruto's way succeed.
The world also needs someone like Sasuke to make the right decisions and not be entirely naive. Naruto's way would be a lot like Hiruzen's, under whose rule had villages betray Konoha or try to betray Konoha despite the treaty.Quote:
Well, that means Naruto can keep the bijuu from getting pissed off. "Hey guys, you trust me, right? Sorry, but we gotta kill you so Tobi or Madara's plans are delayed, but no worries! You'll be regenerated, and I'll find you!"
Anyone with common sense, decency, and a healthy morale would kill seven beings who can regenerate in order to save the world. It's not only common sense, but it's logic. Sacrifice the lives of seven chakra beings who can regenerate, or put the entire world at severe risk against a supremely overpowered enemy?
I'm willing to bet the only reason why you and Invader care about the bijuu being killed is because of Naruto and Sasuke, because otherwise I saw no complaint when the shinobi were trying to kill the bijuu until Naruto told Sasuke not to, and Sasuke refused to listen.
Oh but it does, you just don't get it. They're different to you because you treat Bijuu as the cause of wars and chaos. But you're wrong. They're just means to do the war, the cause of it are humans, as I pointed out many times. Logic can never work in a peaceful world where people have affection and understanding towards one another. If you don't understand that, your system of value isn't properly built. Like I said many times, even if you do kill the Bijuu, humans wouldn't stop with wars and chaos, something you also don't understand.
Not everyone is perfect. Sasuke, like many others had a messed up life, so his choices and upbringing into adulthood were also messed up. That's why Naruto is awesome when it comes to personality. He had it the same, but he didn't cave in. And he found in his enemies reason and understanding, which is required to end the cycle of hatred and war.
I'm pretty sure that the rest of the shinobi world now trusts the Bijuu. Not just because of Naruto but because of the fact that the Bijuu acted in Alliance's favor, attacking Madara and trying to get rid of the world's biggest threat.
That's false and a complete contradiction. Again, you're not putting the world at risk if you leave the "weapons" alive or in sight. Again, if you kill those "weapons", another set would take their place. It's not the Bijuu who are a threat to humans, but humans themselves are the threat to their own selves.
No, not really. While the Bijuu are certainly a power boost to both Naruto and Sasuke, this has nothing to do with this. I'm simply having another opinion about people.
Guns don't kill people. People kill people. This pretty much sums this whole debate up, again.
Pretty much this. Hypothetically let's say Sauske killed all the Bijju and removed them from the mix (at least temporarily until they regenerate). Is that going to remove the hatred that is in people's hearts? How does that stop someone from going on a rampage and killing innocent people? Answer: it does nothing to prevent those things. The only thing removing the Bijju does (temporarily) is reduce the SCALE that a single incident may potentially represent. Someone with a Bijju would be able to cause destruction on a bigger scale - that's all. Reducing the scale from occasional incidents of mass destruction to millions of diffused, singular acts of hate & violence doesn't address the real problem.Quote:
So MURDERING the Bijju doesn't solve anything. All it does is heap abuse onto living, sentient beings with the lame excuse that you're doing it "for the greater good". Meanwhile there is still all the hate, violence, and every other problem that was supposedly going to be fixed by murdering those sentient beings. So what is accomplished by that evil act of murdering those living beings? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Therefore Sauske would perform an evil act with no good outcome.
I agree with you. However, because the bijuu were spared, look at what's happening. Madara became the Juubi's jinchuuriki and is immensely overpowered to the point that he brought Naruto and Sasuke to the brink of death effortlessly and survived Gai's attacks. Even Naruto couldn't stop Madara from takin the Kyuubi from him.Quote:
Logic can work in a war, which is what's happening now. I understand far more than you, it seems, otherwise you'd at least be acknowledging the trouble caused by keepin the bijuu alive, even if you'd still be against killing it. Again, I refer you to the manga, from the point Naruto told Sasuke to stop to now. Luckily, plot saves the heroes.
Naruto had it better than Sasuke because he never experienced his loved ones being killed. Naruto didn't find reason and understanding, he just spoke from his heart while fighting them.Quote:
Cool for them, but it doesn't change the fact that killin the bijuu would have prevented Madara and Tobi's plans from being anywhere close to successful in that time. Delaying was the best choice, like I said, because they can't get more power and are easier to beat, and even if they aren't, Naruto would have plenty of time to talk with the shinobi and make them stop usin bijuu to get power. Everyone wins, moreso the bijuu if Naruto succeeds.
Yet, it's only the bijuu that Madara and Tobi went after.Quote:
It sums up your debate, not mine. My issue was that killing the bijuu was the right choice because it would have delayed Madara and Tobi's plans, not because they're the reason why the world can't achieve peace. I'm specifically talking about their plans, which required the bijuu in order to revive the Juubi again, which in turn gave Tobi and then Madara immense power.
Beat Tobi and Madara (more easily)
Work on changing people and creatin peace so the bijuu won't be used for power again
Peace is established
Let's try this. For example, don't pay attention to the current crisis with Russia and Ukraine, but Russia does have nuclear weapons that could theoretically kill any country they want. In this manga, Russia is any village that has a Bijuu as a nuclear weapon. Now, why doesn't any country see potential threat in nuclear weapons that Russia holds? Because there's not a single person in Russia who'd use it against another country (although Putin might be the one). The same principle goes in the story with Bijuu and the villages. The comparison is exact and there shouldn't be any problems grasping this. In other words, by your logic, to secure the world from potentially going to war, the whole world would have to attack Russia. But that seems preposterous now, doesn't it?
---------- Post added at 09:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:18 PM ----------
Your logic tells us that the extermination is the only way to go, which is ironic because that's the very idea that this manga wants to avoid and it's the sole reason hatred, wars and chaos lasted that long, along with the fact that it's the complete opposite of how the real life works.
Last edited by Roman; April 16, 2014 at 02:21 PM.
M3J is clearly referencing the war, in and of itself. He's even agreed with what you are saying overall. No one wants to murder beautiful, sentient creatures if they don't have to. In terms of the war, and using your examples, "Russia" already has most of the "nuclear weapons". Because in this case, there is a finite amount. "Russia" in this case is also only two people, who've already expressed a desire to use these nukes for their gain. You can't say everyone in Russia or any village is an immediate threat, because only two people (Tobi and Madara) have the means and power to acquire the nukes and use them as they see fit.
"Russia" (or Tobi and Madara) is also the only country with the immediate means to not only take the other countries nukes (i.e. Naruto and Bee), but have also expressed the desire to use those nukes to wipe out everyone, by merging all of those nukes together into one ultimate mega unstoppable nuke.
Now, let's say the nukes are happy little creatures and everyone loves them. Whatever, fine and dandy. But let's also say that someone can press a button and make all of the nukes disappear without having anyone die in the process, knowing beforehand that the nukes will return eventually.
I think what M3J is getting at is that:
1. It stops the immediate real threat, which is Russia (i.e. Tobi and Madara). If they can't merge the nukes, they can't create the ultra mega nuke.
He's not saying this is the ONLY method towards peace. It's a very real method towards immediate peace, in that it stops Russia from creating a mega nuke, and thus makes the chances of defeating Russia much, much easier. He's saying that it's a very logical step towards defeating Russia. I mean, Tobi and Madara. It just so happens that an added benefit would be peace, because if there are no more nukes, then there are no more wars over control of the nukes. Because who knows how long the nukes will be gone for? But people are fickle and nothing is guaranteed.
You both agree with each other, but it just so happens M3J can objectively look at both sides of the argument.
I think you can, too, but you seem to be arguing just for the sake of it.
Last edited by Exodi; April 16, 2014 at 03:35 PM.
Of course, and this is what Invader implied. The nukes/Bijuu as a means of war means only a reduction in damage, but not stopping the doing of the war overall.
The nukes are neutral in your argument as well as I pointed out. The immediate threat is the one who presses the button. If the nukes/Bijuu perish, the one who persists with the war will find another "nuke/Bijuu".
1. This is where I don't agree with him because stopping the seemingly immediate threat just because there's a risk of someone wanting to use it is not logical specially because the matter of fact is a being with conscious. The time period doesn't matter here because if someone wants to wage war, it will happen regardless of weapons available.
The immediate peace is an illusion here if we don't know when someone will want to make a war. The only thing I agree with him is the fact that the Russia/Madara would be dealt much easier if the nukes/Bijuu are not present. That's cool. But the problem lies in the fact that they're conscious and intelligent, beings with the ability to reason who want nothing else but peace. This is why I touched the system of value, morals and empathy/compassion. Logical step would be to destroy the nukes/Bijuu, but at what cost if you don't have any guarantee that no one will try to do the same thing again? In the nukes matter, you risk a potential war with the country just so you could get rid of the nukes, and in the Bijuu matter, you practically execute a being like you'd be executing an innocent human.
There is no peace either if Tobi or Madara wins and puts people in their genjutsu. My logic tells us that killing the bijuu or finding SOME WAY to put them out of Tobi or Madara's hands is the only way to solve the current problem. Let me break it down for you again:
bijuu was part of Juubi, the single most powerful thing in existence
bad guys want Juubi to put people in genjutsu
bad guys need bijuu to make Juubi
- spare bijuu, bad guys can get bijuu
bad guys getting bijuu means bijuu revived, bad guy become jinchuuriki, much powerful
bad guy's plan succeeds because there's no plot armor, people under genjutsu
- kill bijuu, bad guys can't get bijuu
no bijuu means no juubi, bad guys don't get super power
without super power, bad guys are easier to kill
the bijuu REGENERATE
while bijuu regenerate, good guys establish peace forever
bijuu finish regenerating, peace forever between everyone and chakra beings
Which one sounds better? Bijuu cannot truly die, as the manga says. However, humans die and cannot come back to life naturally. I honestly don't know why I'm wasting time arguing with you given we're not on the same page. You're arguing about the shinobi world and peace, while I'm talking about the war, and preventing the bad guys from winning. You also seem to not take under consideration that bijuu can regenerate, if the manga is true.
Honestly, it's like you're arguing about religion and politics, and I'm arguing about science vs. religion.
You think it's okay to murder Bijuu, I disagree with that. What's so hard to understand, honestly?
I never ignored anything. I'm trying to explain why it would be wrong to execute a conscious being, why that action alone is wrong. Not just for moral and emphatic reason but logical as well. You would destroy everything Naruto stands for and it would be for nothing because there would always be a potential threat of waging war regardless of the weapons. And if you destroy something that Naruto stands for, and real life as well, you would never have peace.
You think the act of killing them would be erased if they could regenerate? I think you know how wrong that is.
So, because Naruto says so, it's more logical to let a super powerful zombie become an even more powerful, immortal human?
Instead of potentially stopping him by getting rid of the objects that are directly related to him becoming an almighty, evil immortal?
I'm sure M3J agrees killing the bijuu is "wrong". I do, too. Like I said, no one would kill them if it weren't necessary. But that's not the point.
And it kind of is necessary.
The point is whether or not killing the beasts would put a stop to Tobi and Madara's plan.
Logically, I think it would. Or at least hinder them.
The humans in this manga can't come back to life. The bijuu can. Killing the bijuu is a tactic.
It's a war. Bad and immoral stuff will happen. It sounds bad but in a war, sometimes logic > morality.
Unless you are Naruto and you have the power to throw logic out like a bag of rotten trash.
Not just Naruto, that's how the real life works as well, which is why I brought Russia in the first place.
That's the problem, they're not objects, immediatelly if they have conscious and are benevolent in nature. It's not their fault because someone wants to use them.
No, it's not, obviously. You're reading the manga, right?
I agree, it would. But it would be wrong morally, like I said many times.
The Bijuu could be used tactically in Alliance's favor rather than kill them first. Which is exactly what happened with Naruto.
I don't know if logic can be associated with the mere fact that Naruto equipped them and is now using them, or rather fighting with them, for the right cause.