Moderator message by: ImpossibilityIf you're incapable of having a discussion without engaging in petty insults and disparaging remarks about posters, just avoid getting into any back and forth. Keep the conversation civil, there isn't any reason to incessantly deride the comprehension of other members.
My apologies for saying anything out of line.
Anyway let's wrap up and keep it civil, we've gone at it for like 2 weeks on this revised thread and it's clearly not budging in any particular direction.
Obito and Danzo knew each other. Or at the very least, knew of each other even if they hadn't spoken. And Obito collected all the Sharingan off of the bodies of the fallen Uchiha when he finished killing them. And Danzo got an arm full of Sharingan. At the very least, it's safe to assume they had a business type of relationship even if they didn't like each other.
An anime filler?... Your proof to your thesis on him being a bad leader... was filler content only in the Anime and not the manga? Content that didn't even mention the Uchiha were outraged btw. And it certainly didn't make them seem like they hated his guts because he ordered them to stay back. Plus he even ordered one of the anbu squads to stay back with them to help out... so I don't quite understand?
The 3rd was a great leader IMO. Because he held the leaf in tact for around 40 years and led them successfully through 2 world shinobi wars. 30 before Minato, and the gap between Minato's death and his.... so like... 12, revolutionized jutsu (he was known as the God of Shinobi after all) and the academy system... Raised 3 of the strongest shinobi. Was compared to Hashirama for inheriting the 'will of fire' and his legacy + teachings molded the 4th Hokage. Which extended into the 5th (Tsunade his direct student)... and 6th (Kakashi... Minato's student). and 7th Actually... The village was at it's longest period of standing peace under him and he forged relationships with other villages to the point where they felt comfortable letting their Genin come participate in Chunnin exams, which happened after a series of wars so his peace making skills are otherworldly.
The Uchiha were disliked, but never oppressed til Danzo. They had their own police force which gave them considerably more weight in the government than 90% of the other clans, and they were feared/respected for their strength. Even if people didn't like them because of personal reasons, no one ever accussed the Uchiha of being useless. And obviously because they ran the police force... no one could rightfully cross them in public, besides Danzo making calls because he didn't trust them like the Kyuubi incident.
They chose to fight a fight they would lose (I mean it only took Obito and Itachi to waste the whole clan). If they had open warfare with the clan... Kakashi, Tsunade, Jiraya, Guy, the 3rd, Itachi, shisui, (because he'd be on the leaf's side) and Danzo would have been more than enough to put them down. Not even factoring in the Other head hunters from the other clans. So strategically they weren't in a strong position either. (Especially since their plan was already known). They deadlocked themselves into a situation where they'd die if they continued, and knowing that they continued. They literally threw away their lives because of their pride, and that is not a decision that i'd respect no matter the circumstance. Just so we are clear, If they had a shot maybe i'd be more understanding.. but even being generous, there couldn't have been more than 300-500 uchiha Combatants.. but they wanted to take on a village that had easily 3,000+ shinobi + 1 or 2 allied weaker nations that'd help to raise status with the leaf if needed? Nope. There is no way that is happening. Specially since all of them had nothing but the normal Sharingan, and even Kakashi had a Magekyo... I mean you could argue that as the fighting dragged out there would be some Uchiha who would get the Magekyo as a response to stress... but Madara and his brother were the first to awaken the eyes, and the Uchiha had been warring against the Senju for countless years at that point. If it was a pure emotion thing, there would've been more.
No one should coddle the Uchiha for making the single most astronomical blunder of their lives. If they had a fighting chance, maybe i could understand. But when looking at the lack of notable Shinobi in the Uchiha at the time (Cept for Shisui and Itachi... but both were on the enemy's side) and the fact that they probably knew their plans were known in full detail by the leaf... they should've known that even strategy wise they'd lose. But they refused to step off the plate and kept taking wild swings, and stepped on Danzo's toes.
Just so we agree, Danzo is a piece of -Censorship-. But he did what he had to. His call was the cruelest but I apprehensively respect it. Not many people would've made that call. the 3rd definitely wasn't. He was gonna sit around and try to talk the Uchiha out of it until they showed up at his front door by the Dozens.
The Uchiha screwed up. Their issues were their issues, if they wanted them solved, they should've met the Hokage Half way, or at least tried more when itachi was trying to talk them out of it. The 3rd Hokage isn't responsible for fixing their emotional short comings and he definitely isn't required to go out of his way to help them out if they ignore him sending Itachi as a diplomat. the 3rd hokage has a village made of 10+ clans and all the non combatants to look after. Just because one is raising a stink doesn't mean it his job to sit down and listen to every detail. What happened needed to happen, the only mistake i can understand is that it took Danzo to make it happen.
Last edited by Itamachi; September 24, 2015 at 12:10 PM.
Not sure if Danzou's eye has that long of a recharge time. We do know it has recharge time as Danzou used it on Mifune but couldn't use his eye for a while when he fought Sasuke.
But where's the proof that Danzou is answerable? If he was, then Root would have ceased to exist on Hiruzen's orders, not continue to operate out of secrecy.... Although, to be fair HIruzen likely allowed it to operate as Danzou did things that Hiruzen couldn't do.
---------- Post added at 01:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:04 PM ----------
I just recall that His eye was Shisui's eye. Maybe you're right and i'm missing something.
I'm not saying it said so in the Manga, sorry if that's what it seemed i was getting at. I was simply saying, that even when offically stripped of power, Danzo continued to run things from the Shadows of the Village. ROOT was still a threat all the way until he died.
And That is what i ment. Even if the 3rd openly told him to leave the position, Danzo kept running the show and convincing the Advisors of x, y, and z. And even when he was beaten by numbers, he'd use ROOT and underhanded tactics to get what he wanted. That's all i ment. Nothing but death could stop Danzo from acting out.
---------- Post added at 11:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:08 AM ----------
I'll agree to disagree. They weren't victims. Whether or not their coup would have been successful given other circmustances maybe they stood a chance.
But as it was set up, and as things were falling out of place, they should've known that force wouldn't solve anything. I mean consider this, if you knew you were going to die preforming an action that would have no logical win for you... would you do it? The answer 99% of the time is no. The Uchiha were the 1%.
I'm not saying they didn't have any reason to be upset, nor am i saying the Leaf is faultless. My position is that their plan wasn't sound. They were going to lose. And they pushed ahead anyway. Making it seem like the 3rd had to try absurdly hard to make them comfortable doesn't make sense to me. But maybe I'm close minded.
They had Itachi make attempts at bridging peace and they ignored it. Regardless of whether or not using Itachi to talk to them was the right move, they ignored an attempt at peace.
Yes i know they weren't being treated fairly towards the end. And yes i know they had a bad rep amongst the village. None of that goes away. But i don't think that Them being in a camp for 2 years justifies them trying to gut the village and kill the elders. It doesn't justify the Elders killing them off. But if you consider it an act first or be killed type of situation then they left the leaf little choice.
I deeply feel for the Uchiha but at the very least. They shouldn't have rejected the 3rd's invitation for peace talks/rejected Itachi's plans for peace if they ment to live good lives.
And just so we are clear, because i know i word vomit and its hard to understand what I'm getting at. I don't think they Uchiha were at fault for being upset. I think they were at fault for attacking the leaf rather than listening to the 3rd Hokage and Itachi's words.
I think they were at fault for thinking they could win a statistically impossible fight. Like i mentioned before, there were no notable Uchiha besides the ones on the Leaf's side. They would've been wiped, but it would have been messer and invited chaos. They basically pulled a suicide bomber. They were going to go out with a bang, and make sure the leaf sank with them. And that type of pointless strategy is one i can't respect.
Last edited by Itamachi; September 24, 2015 at 12:27 PM.
they were more of victims than given credit for. If you were falsely accused of something and had your power and political importance taken away for no reason or proof, would you gladly take it or would you rebel? I highly doubt they stood a chance when Itachi stood with Konoha, along with other clans. But the Uchiha thought Itachi was on their side, and we don't know what they could have done. Or what the plan was, other than it being a coup.Quote:
As far as you know. And the Third just needed to give them their political equality/power back when it was taken from them for no good reason. Although I'm sure Danzou would have made sure the Uchiha were killed one way or another, whether the Uchihas came to terms or not.Quote:
Pretty sure they didn't. If you're gonna say that, then so did the elders and Hiruzen when they refused to listen to the Uchiha's request for equality.
They were victims, that is very true. But not faultless victims was my point. I agree with everything you said. But as i was saying before Danzo knew Tobi/Madara in some compacity (I mean Tobi cleaned up all the Sharingan and gave some to Danzo with the help of Oro) so you're also right that it would've probably happened anyway.
My point is that they shouldn't be just the victims of the situation. Not that they deserve majority of the blame, but they didn't help themselves much in any compacity is all i'm saying. All your points are fair, and it's not really a difference of views it seems like, more as maybe i'm sounding harsher than i mean.
I don't know if Tobi gave Danzou Sharingan, for all we know Danzou just plucked them from killed Uchiha after Itachi was finished. I took Tobi addressing Danzou as more like them meeting once or twice, although I wouldn't be shocked if Danzou did work together with Tobi to make sure Minato died and/or to blame the Uchiha so he could have them killed.Quote:
You seem to be blaming the Uchihas for everything though. They probably didn't want anything less than political equality/say back, especially after how Tobirama acted upon his prejudice and kept pushing the Uchiha away.Quote:
To the Danzo point, Oro was the one that implanted them in his arms, and i believe Oro was in the Akatsuki at this time (if I'm not screwing up the time line) so it matches up too well to be a coincidence. Oro being in league with Tobi, who cleaned up the eyes, and Danzo gets the implants a few months down the line? (Well not sure when he does, he just says Oro is the one responsible for both the Hashirama cells + eyes). Not combating your point, just clarification.
Well that isn't my intention to blame them. I was merely noting they aren't hapless victims in a power struggle. They made a chain of decisions that ended that way. While it sucks, it's not like them threatening to murder the leaders of the leaf was helping.
They have to bare some responsibility, is all i ment. It was just weird to blame the third hokage for a group of adult's conscious decisions that lead up to their death. And expecting him to 'qwell' all their negative emotions in one sitting of office. It just seems like a it of work to place all that on 1 person, regardless if he's the military leader of the leaf.
If i was to assign blame, Danzo and Tobirama would recieve 70%. With Tobi and Madara + other factors (Uchiha unrest, distrust) would split the remaining.
@M3J I wouldn't dismiss anime canonicity so easily because after I started reading the novels (which were stated as being canon by Kishimoto), they bring to canon a lot of things that even the most enthusiastic anime fan would not, like the Blood Prision movie and the Road to Ninja movies, they mention anime-only facts with a fair frequency. So I tend to think anime facts as canon unless direct contradicts the Kishimoto's own work, at least they seems to be as canon as the novels, since they reference anime only facts.
In the end this whole discussion about canon is fruitless, to most people it is of no consequence, sincerely the only places where I have to check if somethng is manga-only or anime-only is here (I don't have time to hang out on other manga\anime forums anymore).
Orochimaru confirmed this. So this whole thing about Danzo getting his eyes from the Uchiha massacre, even if he knew Obito in some form or another, was either retconned or pure speculation. Either way, is no longer a thing that Danzo got his arm from multiple Uchiha(more specifically the massacre) . It even started out as speculation anyway, even if it made sense at the time.
If I'm missing any details in the conversation, please catch me up to speed. However, the whole "Danzo used the Uchiha massacre to get the power of the sharingan" is not a thing anymore. Danzo got his arm from a BS story breaking mutant experiment. That is cannon.
Does this cheapen things a little, Yes. Does it really make sense that Orochimaru would go through all that trouble to get Sasuke if he already had in his possession a child that could potentially become an amalgamation of literally any bloodline that Orochimaru decide to splice with him, no. However, that's how it is.
Edit: you know what just occurred to me? According to Orochimaru himself, Shin (or more specifically his clone army), where the shadow clones that did not disappear. Each one of them being "an original". Wouldn't that pretty much mean that Orochimaru had at his disposal a limitless amount of bodies that all possess the sharingan as if they were Uchiha themselves? Extremely lame mangekyo ability aside. Yeah, like I said, story breaking.
Last edited by KiSwordsman; September 30, 2015 at 06:18 PM.
I knew the arm was from Shin, but we never got a comment on the actual Sharingan in the arm.
I mean shin doesn't naturally have the Sharingan, his clones wouldn't either. So he'd have to clone the Sharingan right? Which would be a pain to do. (not saying it isn't possible because it clearly is... just saying i'm not sure that Oro the rouge before he got his own village would've had the resources)
The timeline that makes sense to me: (Cut in if i'm wrong)
1-Oro was in possession of shin (W/O sharingan) and used him to embed the power of the Sharingan into Danzo's arm. Afterwards, Shin somehow came into contact with Itachi and became obsessed with being an Uchiha. Orochimaru would've probably gotten/kept a few of the eyes that Obito gave him to implant into danzo.
2-Fast forward to Oro's death, if Oro had a few Odds and ends of Sharingan that he found useless (because he knew of their ability or otherwise) the shin who broke out/was released because of Sasuke's shuffle would find the eyes and finally be able to follow in the foot steps of his object of obsession, Itachi.
That time line is just a fast ball, but it makes sense because:
-The arm is shins, but no one comments on the Sharingan, so it's pretty open.
-As you pointed out, it makes no sense for him to openly have infinite bodies with the Sharingan and be so bent over Sasuke's. He would have had to know that either the abilities were weak. Or He didn't know the extent that Shin could swarm.
-Also, Shin also had an eye that used a kamui-like Obito's, and he was covered in multiple other eyes. If we assume all of Shin's clone's eyes have the same skill, then he got the eyes from somewhere else. And if Oro had a Tobi/obito eye laying around he could've cloned... then what was he doing with his life? (I'd personally rather have teleportation than black flame thrower any day)
-Also I'm *assuming* the Shin clones age at a Normal rate. So either the genetic clones were fashioned sometime after Kaguya was beaten and grew up to their current age.
Now I'm agreeing that the arm is shin's i know that much. I'm just not 100% on the eyes. Because Oro would have to get the original source material from somewhere. As well as the other eyes like the Kamui-like eye. And the fact that Obito was playing Santa clause with eyeballs is too convient of an event happening around this time for them to not be related.
So i think Tobi provided the source material for both Danzo's arm. And he probably gave Oro the eyes to work with, the biggest clue is that Shin didn't get into his Uchiha Mind set until after being influenced by Itachi (or looking up to itachi.. or something?) and that wouldn't have happened until after the Masscre and Itachi was in the Akatsuki. Or at least until Itachi's name was infamous enough to be spread around as much as it was.
Now I'm not punching holes directly at you. I'm agreeing with you. Yeah, the shin bomb makes the story line harder to roll with. But hey:
Time line ala Kishi.
Last edited by Itamachi; October 01, 2015 at 04:06 AM.