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Thread: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13

  1. #1426
    MH Senpai 神のごとし / Kami no Gotoshi / Godlike M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    You and I weren't even discussing the Curse. The discussion between the two of us was entirely based on your asinine claims about Tobirama, and the irony of your defence of Itachi that followed them. If you had something to say about the arguments I've made in favour of the existence of the Curse, you've had weeks to do so, it wasn't as though you weren't active in the thread. Instead you waited until there wasn't anyway to continue to defend the nonsense you'd already spewed and went off on a tangent decrying some apparent lack of argument for something else, which has already been discussed thoroughly with a final exhaustive post on my part days before...it's still there. If this is your interpretation of the discussion, the problem lies entirely with you.
    I wasn't active in the thread until my first post on this matter, actually. But cool story otherwise, bro.
    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    If that were the case Tobirama wouldn't bother building the Uchiha clan up as super empathetic people with a strong love for their brethren because it would have the exact opposite effect: the Senju would empathize with them and feel sorry for them, thus, making it HARDER to kill them.
    He used Shisui and Kagami. Did he mention other Uchiha who sided with the Senju over Madara and turned their backs on Madara? Him praising Uchiha is like a racist person saying "but I'm not a racist, I have a black friend!" He didn't seem to praise the Uchiha in the flashbacks, at all, only when he was talking to Sasuke.



    Quote Quote:
    Again: the curse wouldn't make it easier to kill the Uchiha clan and write them off as lost causes. On the contrary it paints them as victims and draws an emotional response.
    The curse would make it easier to kill the Uchiha because it makes them look like they're mentally unstable and dangerous. Example being Madara, and how Tobirama was still extremely wary of Madara. Tobirama seems to view most of the Uchiha as guilty or potentially guilty based on Madara.


    Quote Quote:
    I typed up a four-paragraph list of all the possible stances that could be made in this discussion; two possibly taken by Sasuke fans, and two possibly taken by Sasuke haters. Two in favor of the existance of the curse, and two against the idea of the curse. And everyone keeps jumping to the "You're picking on us ninjabot, you're calling us all haters!" one. That's when you know no one's reading your shit properly: they can only refer to the ones that (supposedly) fit their arguments.
    Yes, I know that. I never said you were picking on anyone, just that you were IMPLYING that you choose to believe in the curse because you don't Sasuke to be held responsible for his actions. Though I'm sure you were calling some people haters, even if you typed out all four possible stances and didn't single anyone out.

    Quote Quote:
    As for the proof everyone's asking for, we've given it, but you won't accept.
    No you haven't. All you've said was "TOBIRAMA SAID THIS AND HASHIRAMA DIDN'T CONTRADICT TOBIRAMA!"

    Quote Quote:
    Reasons for the curse actually existing:

    Multiple characters mention it (Tobirama, Madara, Obito)

    one character mentions it while also claiming his experiments prove it (Tobirama)

    Hashirama doesn't deny it, and Sasuke accepts Tobirama's explanation without pause

    proof that the Uchiha clan's emotionally charged psychosis was exploited over centuries (It's only stated that the two clans were manipulated into facing each other, and the Uchiha has always been the aggressor)
    When did Tobi mention it?

    What experiments? Did we see how Tobirama conducted his experiments? Did he go out and kill certain Uchiha to see how other Uchiha acted? Was he basing everything on Madara's reactions?

    Hashirama and Tobirama only seem to think of Madara when it comes to the curse. I don't remember seeing more faceless Uchihas, just Madara whenever they bring up the curse.

    Interestingly, we also saw Hashirama's dad start shit and wanting to kill the Uchiha. Indra started the war, but if the dad is anything to go by, the Senju weren't innocent either.

    Quote Quote:
    Reasons for the curse not existing:
    The Uchiha clan has free will and can make their own decisions (they have free will, but the decisions they choose to make are heavily influenced by the curse, so that's moot. Proof otherwise is non-existant)

    Sasuke, Obito, and Madara were manipulated into becoming avengers and thus weren't being controlled by the curse (the curse doesn't control you in the first place so I don't know how the hell this became an argument). The curse is a driving force that becomes stronger, and that force can drive an Uchiha to make decisions to the detriment of themselves for the sake of sating their hatred. Manipulating a person such as this is INCREDIBLY easy when you exploit their emotions.
    The curse must not be that much of an influence. The only person who would prove your argument right would be Tobi because he immediately went evil when Rin died despite knowing the truth. It took Madara years to finally fall to the curse, and Sasuke never really fell to the curse, not to the degree made out to be.

    If the curse was a driving force that allowed an Uchiha to be manipulated easily, then Madara wouldn't have agreed to a truce regardless of opinions based on his brother telling Madara not to trust the Senju before his death. Sasuke would have blindly believed Tobi and not bother to confirm the story, or back in Part I warm up to and care about Naruto and Sakura to the point that Orochimaru felt he had to step in to keep Sasuke an avenger. Tobi is a dumbass, so it's easy to manipulate him either way, and probably the only argument that the curse was a driving force behind his actions.

    Same

  2. #1427
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Exodi's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    I never said any of these things. If its polarizing it's because you're not paying attention.

    My list ran the gamut from:

    Those that hate Sasuke
    Those that like Sasuke but aren't blinded by bias
    Those that dislike Sasuke
    Those that like Sasuke too much to remain unbiased
    Again, how does liking or disliking Sasuke have anything to do with any of this.

    Quote Quote:
    if you care enough to express your opinion on the matter then you simply aren't indifferent.
    I give less than two shits about Kiba, but if you start a discussion on whether or not Kiba can defeat Shino in a fight, I might put my two cents in because the topic is somewhat interesting. Perhaps that's not true indifference, but it's also not suggesting that anyone who agrees or disagrees has to like or dislike the character.


    Quote Quote:
    Therefore, it's not simply black and white. It's white, off-white, gray, and then black. You're doing the same thing everyone else is doing, and that's jumping from one extreme to the other and ignoring all context because it's... easy.
    It's only easy because you yourself are using the term "Sasuke hater."

    As a member of this forum since 2007, I've seen the terms "fanboy", "hater", etc repeated over and over and over. And over. It's like the "Sakura is useless" joke.
    It's stupid and unproductive and distracts from whatever point you actually want to make, regardless of whether or not the point is valid.



    Quote Quote:
    And Tobirama can talk objectively about the Uchiha clan whether he likes them or not, right? As for why pointing out biases matters? For the same reason you claim to avoid posts by people that acknowledge biases, and for the same reason everyone's trying to discredit Tobirama's findings: because bias, while it doesn't automatically invalidate one's opinion, it helps to discern one's motivations.
    I don't necessarily avoid posts with bias. I just avoid people who say stuff like "sasuke hater", "naruto hater", "fanboy", et cetera.
    I know, I'm weird.

    In his speech, however, Tobirama comes across as a somewhat hateful man.
    This, in addition to there being no real evidence apart from what Tobirama says, casts a shadow over his findings.



    Quote Quote:
    Couple things wrong with owning up to this. The first being that, you just claimed most people read what I'm saying, yet in the same response you admitted to breezing over my post, negating your point and validating my own.
    Sigh. Just no. I spent a while typing a response. Don't even go there.

    Obviously, I read the post if I took the time to respond to it. Come on, dude.

    What I was saying is that most of the time, I most definitely would ignore what you're saying. As I've mentioned, it irks me when people use "hater" or "fanboy" as part of their arguments.

    Quote Quote:
    "People read your posts, they just don't read them completely." That's exactly what I said: that they pick apart the things that fit their argument and ignore the ones that disprove it.

    The second? You can't take posters seriously that point out biases, but you expect to be taken seriously after admitting to not reading what you're responding to thoroughly? I hope this comes with an understanding that you sacrifice any possibility of being taken seriously after the fact in return.
    Again. I read your post. I wouldn't have responded to it otherwise. You missed the point of what I was saying, which is that it's hard to take you seriously.
    But that's because whether or not I (or anyone) like Sasuke doesn't have much to do with any of this discussion.



    Quote Quote:
    Sasuke seemed plenty interested, as once Tobirama mentioned it he asked him to elaborate. Hashirama did ask Tobirama to chill with his biases, but he didn't say that he was lying when he said "You know it well, the Uchiha clan is possessed by evil." He went along with the explanation, even implied that he agreed with it when reiterating how much Madara loved Izuna.

    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/619/13/
    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/619/14/
    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/619/15/ Sasuke asks what he means... Hashirama shuts his mouth. Why would he initially be angry about Tobirama persecuting the Uchiha, yet have no qualms with sitting there and allowing it to happen again in front of his face?
    Because Hashirama wanted to let Sasuke make a decision on his own, so he let Sasuke listen to what Tobirama had to say.

    And then Hashirama himself sat down and told Sasuke his story. So that Sasuke would make his own decision regardless.
    Which, overall, speak to Hashirama's character. Kind of the opposite of his brother.

    Of course, Hashirama would be upset at his brother persecuting an entire race of people. Both because they were a part of the village and also because that's just kinda wrong, yo.

    Quote Quote:
    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/619/19/ Sasuke continues listening to the story until the end where Hashirama finally has enough and tells Tobirama to shut up. Sasuke speaks up and claims "I don't care. I'm not pure, and I'm not a child." This didn't mean he didn't care about the story, it meant he wanted to hear everything and him talking trash about the Uchiha clan wasn't going to deter him. Up to that point he made several facial expressions that implied shock and curiosity, then finally anger when he activates his EMS.

    So Sasuke gave a shit alright. It was written all over his face. And eyes.
    Yeah, I suppose that's one way to look at it. But Sasuke is far more interested in learning why Itachi was forced to what he did.
    I don't believe for a second that Sasuke buys into what Tobirama is saying.

    I'm sure the 'science' is there. I guess it needs to be since it's the only explanation for how the Sharingan happens in an Uchiha. But Sasuke's demeanor suggests that none of that really concerns him. That's why he immediately changes the topic and beings talking to Hashirama.




    Quote Quote:
    That's how science works. You form a hypothesis, then you perform a series of experiments based on that educated guess. It just so happened that his findings supported his notion. If they didn't, then he wouldn't rely on them as fact. That doesn't invalidate his findings in the slightest.
    However, you have no idea that that is what Tobirama did.
    Of course he would rely on them as fact. He already dislikes the Uchiha.

    It doesn't invalidate his findings, necessarily. But, like every experiment ever, your findings have to be found again and again through experimenting. The issue is that Tobirama's findings are the only "proof" to consider.

    So, let's recap:

    1. A man hates Uchiha
    2. A man finds stuff suggesting that Uchiha are cursed, which strengthens his resolve towards hating Uchiha
    3. A man actions in life towards Uchiha cause further dismay/discord
    4. A man continues hating Uchiha


    Quote Quote:
    Hm... come to think of it, Hashirama actually continues validating Tobirama's claims about the Sharingan's awakening right here:

    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/624/10/
    http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/624/11/


    Quote Quote:
    Do you actually know what kind of emotional stimuli results in the acquisition of the Sharingan? And which ones cause it to advance to it's higher levels?
    Does helping someone with groceries have anything to do with any of these stimuli?

    According to Tobirama, it's experiencing a great loss.
    According to Kishimoto, intense feelings of love (like imagining your Papa) can do it, too.

    So, I actually don't know. I don't think Kishimoto does either.

    Anyway, I said that in regards to the free will stuff. Obito's Sharingan was already awakened when he met Madara.
    But Obito wasn't buying into any of Madara's BS.

    Until Madara decided to purposefully manipulate Obito, Obito wanted out.


    Quote Quote:
    Of course. It was the catalyst that awakened his Mangekyou Sharingan and pushed him into a deep depression, making him easily exploited for the rest of his days.
    Yes. I don't see how that would show he's "cursed".



    Quote Quote:
    He wasn't fine! Are you implying Madara's response was normal!? He decided to wage war on the entire village because Tobirama was badmouthing him, lol. By that point Madara had already acquired the EMS and while in a state of regression, he was basically a powder keg. Then his clan ignored his attempts to help them, essentially abandoning him.
    Of course it wasn't normal. Madara is both crazy and was also being manipulated (indirectly by Black Zetsu).
    But Madara was experiencing a peace-time just like anyone else.



    Quote Quote:
    He did however seek vengeance against people unaffiliated with those who he felt wronged him, driven by his emotions which made it easy for Obito to exploit him. Sasuke went from wanting to kill those who wronged his brother, to wanting to kill those who live in the same place as those who wronged his brother. That's a gigantic leap. How does this manage to prove that there's no curse?
    Because, again, saying there's a curse suggests that these characters would have done what they did no matter what.
    But it's impossible to say that because they were all manipulated by someone else.



    Quote Quote:
    Why do people keep saying it's only the 3 Uchiha who've gone insane when Tobirama mentions that he's seen it happen countless times?
    1. Because those were the only 3 shown in the manga that experienced that
    2. Tobirama's attitude towards Uchiha in general

    I guarantee you that if Hashirama had explained that, it would've been easier to swallow.
    But the fact that the only examples were people also manipulated by others is what's really damning.

    [/quote]When Hashirama admits that he believed after seeing Madara awaken his Sharingan it resulted in him changing? Hell, he threw away ties to his best friend under manipulation by no one.



    Who was there manipulating that change in character? No one.[/quote]

    Madara's awakens his Sharingan as he specifically remembers his lost brothers (http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/624/9/)
    Note how Madara emphasizes the fact that Hashirama is a Senju.

    And who's responsible for manipulating these two clans into fighting each other?

    Quote Quote:
    Yes Black Zetsu was responsible for the war between Uchiha and Senju,
    Oh, yeah.


    [/quote]but he wasn't responsible for the events that resulted in Madara's Sharingan awakening and him squashing his friendship with Madara.[/quote]

    He kind of is, though. Along with the people who killed his brothers and the two parents that decided to instigate a fight in that very moment.
    I suppose that might be grasping at straws, but Madara didn't just awaken his Sharingan for no reason.

    And there's more:

    Quote Quote:
    Itachi was so sure that Sasuke was going to be manipulated by Obito that he was prepared to literally brainwash him into protecting Konohagakure with Kotoamatsukami. Shows how much he trusted his ability to make decisions on his own, lmao.
    And yet, Sasuke still was manipulated by Obito and the only reason the crow didn't work on Sasuke was because it was accidentally used on Itachi himself.

    Quote Quote:
    Then we have the history of Izanagi and Izanami: a story of how the Uchiha clan was so obsessed with getting their way that they were willing to resort to self mutilation to alter reality. They needed a Genjutsu to force each other to stop hurting themselves and each other, and accept life as it is. There's nothing normal about that shit. This was practically a pandemic amongst the clan.
    This is actually a pretty interesting point.
    Last edited by Exodi; June 29, 2015 at 02:39 PM.

  3. #1428
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Impossibility's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    I wasn't active in the thread until my first post on this matter, actually. But cool story otherwise, bro.
    You realise that anyone can just go back and take a look, right? Everything's right there. You joined the discussion over three weeks ago, a few days after it began, and have posted regularly since then. And this gem was what prompted our discussion. That discussion went back and forth for a few posts. And then when you realised that your position was untenable, suddenly the discussion was about something else I'd already addressed thoroughly. So, actually, the way I described the sequence of events is the only story.

  4. #1429
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13

    Quote Originally Posted by Exodi
    Again, how does liking or disliking Sasuke have anything to do with any of this.
    Just because someone can have an opinion about something without being biased doesn't mean they aren't being biased. Simple. It's the same reason you keep harping about Tobirama having a bias against the Uchiha clan as if it makes his findings moot. It doesn't confirm that his testimony about the Uchiha clan is wrong, but it's something to keep in mind.

    THAT's what it has to do with this.

    Quote Quote:
    It's only easy because you yourself are using the term "Sasuke hater."

    As a member of this forum since 2007, I've seen the terms "fanboy", "hater", etc repeated over and over and over. And over. It's like the "Sakura is useless" joke.
    It's stupid and unproductive and distracts from whatever point you actually want to make, regardless of whether or not the point is valid
    I don't believe for one second you believe there are no people on these forums who've earned the title "hater" or "fanboy" thanks to their behavior. I don't believe for one second you think that it's unproductive to call a spade a spade, and I don't believe for one second that you can't see how revealing someone's motivations is necessary during an argument.

    Quote Quote:
    I don't necessarily avoid posts with bias. I just avoid people who say stuff like "sasuke hater", "naruto hater", "fanboy", et cetera.
    I know, I'm weird.

    In his speech, however, Tobirama comes across as a somewhat hateful man.
    This, in addition to there being no real evidence apart from what Tobirama says, casts a shadow over his findings.
    See? Pointing out Tobirama's biases helps us decide whether or not his words are trustworthy. Acknowledging he's an "Uchiha hater" does the exact same thing as acknowledging someone is a "Sasuke hater". It reveals whether or not their argument is based on actual knowledge or if they're just talking shit because they're bitter.

    But you knew that.

    Quote Quote:
    Sigh. Just no. I spent a while typing a response. Don't even go there.
    No you didn't. Not only did you fail to comprehend the context of the list, but you admitted to breezing through it rather than paying attention. No backpeddling. No takebacks.

    Quote Quote:
    Obviously, I read the post if I took the time to respond to it. Come on, dude.
    It literally, not figuratively, does NOT work like that. The fact that you're responding to it is in NO WAY confirmation you read through it thoroughly. None. Whatsoever.

    Quote Quote:
    What I was saying is that most of the time, I most definitely would ignore what you're saying. As I've mentioned, it irks me when people use "hater" or "fanboy" as part of their arguments.
    It should only irk you when the people being called haters or fanboys aren't haters or fanboys. Because haters and fanboys exist. They're a thing. Four of them are on my ignore list right now. I can't mention them for obvious reasons.

    Quote Quote:
    Again. I read your post. I wouldn't have responded to it otherwise. You missed the point of what I was saying, which is that it's hard to take you seriously.
    But that's because whether or not I (or anyone) like Sasuke doesn't have much to do with any of this discussion.
    No. Takebacks. If you can't take me seriously, you're not reading thoroughly. Admittedly there's always the possibility that you actually DID read my post thoroughly but didn't understand it because you're "irked". In which case...

    ...get out of your feelings man.

    Quote Quote:
    According to Tobirama, it's experiencing a great loss.
    According to Kishimoto, intense feelings of love (like imagining your Papa) can do it, too.
    Intense feelings of love, fear, hatred... intense feelings altogether, but the love becomes hatred when whatever they love is taken from them. Imagining Sasuke didn't awaken Sarada's Sharingan. Meeting him did. The shock and fear she experienced when she first met him did it.

    Quote Quote:
    Anyway, I said that in regards to the free will stuff. Obito's Sharingan was already awakened when he met Madara.
    But Obito wasn't buying into any of Madara's BS.
    Again, it's tied to emotion. When Madara was trying to bring Obito over to his side, the only thing he was feeling at that moment was desperation to be back with his team again (or Rin rather). When Madara first got his Sharingan it was at the fear of losing his brother. It's why he was so quick to dissolve his relationship with his best friend right after. Simply having a Sharingan doesn't immediately turn you into a robot who can be pushed around. It starts the spiral downward.

    Quote Quote:
    Yes. I don't see how that would show he's "cursed".
    The curse is the Uchiha inability to come to terms with their emotions.

    Quote Quote:
    Of course it wasn't normal. Madara is both crazy and was also being manipulated (indirectly by Black Zetsu).
    But Madara was experiencing a peace-time just like anyone else.
    Not like anyone else. He wasn't at ease and he was paranoid. He believed that Tobirama would kill his entire clan once Hashirama was gone. He attempted peace for Hashirama's sake, not because he trusted anyone else in the village.

    Quote Quote:
    Because, again, saying there's a curse suggests that these characters would have done what they did no matter what.
    But it's impossible to say that because they were all manipulated by someone else.
    Good thing no one ever said that's what the curse does. The curse doesn't guarantee that you're going to go insane, it hinders your ability to be objective. It makes it easier for you to fall to despair, which IN TURN can cause you to go crazy and make shitty choices thanks to your emotions running wild. Being manipulated by someone would only make the curse impossible if the manipulation wasn't emotionally motivated.


    You're acting like Sasuke, Obito, or Madara were under Genjutsu by those manipulating them when they did little more than point them at a target. Their emotions did the rest.

    Quote Quote:
    1. Because those were the only 3 shown in the manga that experienced that
    2. Tobirama's attitude towards Uchiha in general
    Yet we have two characters mentioning that throughout all of history Uchiha have fallen to the curse of hatred.

    Quote Quote:
    I guarantee you that if Hashirama had explained that, it would've been easier to swallow.
    Apparently not, because he flatout says that he knew Madara awakening the Sharingan would cause him to change, yet you're still not willing to accept it.

    Quote Quote:
    But the fact that the only examples were people also manipulated by others is what's really damning.
    It isn't. It really isn't. You guys keep mentioning how they were manipulated but obstinately avoid mentioning what made them so easily manipulated. That's not an argument.

    Quote Quote:
    Madara's awakens his Sharingan as he specifically remembers his lost brothers (http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/624/9/)
    Note how Madara emphasizes the fact that Hashirama is a Senju.

    And who's responsible for manipulating these two clans into fighting each other?
    You can NOT be serious.


    Quote Quote:
    He kind of is, though. Along with the people who killed his brothers and the two parents that decided to instigate a fight in that very moment.
    I suppose that might be grasping at straws, but Madara didn't just awaken his Sharingan for no reason.
    Yes it's grasping for straws. Not to mention the question was who was responsible for Madara's mindstate changing. He went from best friends with Hashirama, to mortal enemies with him once his Sharingan activated.

    Quote Quote:
    And yet, Sasuke still was manipulated by Obito and the only reason the crow didn't work on Sasuke was because it was accidentally used on Itachi himself.
    Only for Sasuke to later turn his back on Obito because he found a better way to avenge Itachi. Because his emotions were controlling him. Not Obito. Who was manipulating him then? Tobirama? Hashirama?

    No. Because he didn't do what either Hashirama, Tobirama, OR Obito was attempting to manipulate him toward. He want a completely different way. A way that was still batshit insane.

    Quote Quote:
    This is actually a pretty interesting point.
    So who manipulated this reaction? It wasn't Black Zetsu because the LAST thing he would've wanted was for Uchiha to destroy their eyes and not gain access to the Rinnegan. It wasn't fellow Uchiha because they were the ones trying to forbid the usage of such a technique. It was the curse. Their inability to let go. And no one's responsible for that shit.

  5. #1430
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    Itachi threatened to put the entire village that he loved in danger if Danzou attacked Sasuke. Think about that for a second. He said he'd give up Konoha's secrets to their enemies.

    All of Konoha's innocents were weighed against his brother's life and found inferior. The same village he chose over his own kinsmen.

    Itachi isn't as big a good guy as people like to make him out to be. Genocide is a big deal. He even looked like he was going insane when he got pissed off at the clan and started attacking everyone in front of his home. So much so that his eye randomly transformed into an MS for a second. His hatred was boiling over at that moment. Only reason he wasn't the one casting Mugen Tsukuyomi at the end of the manga is because Sasuke wasn't killed.
    While I agree about Itachi - I will get to this point afterwards - Sharingan does trigger and go on and off on emotions. It's directly linked to it. Itachi was just a fanatic. A jingoistic fanatic, but a fanatic nonetheless. There in nothing unnatural about it. People are passionate about a lot of things, and many times, they follow ideologies with fanatic zeal. This is by no means a curve, but a natural human phenomenon.

    Also, there is absolutely nothing wrong with valuing the life of your loved one over others. I would do the same in a heart-beat. Most people who love their families would. I am unsure how this translates or fits into the curse scenario.

    Quote Originally Posted by Impossibility View Post
    I think most readers tend to overlook most of Itachi's issues. A lot of it comes down to the fact that he turned out to be far different than what he was packaged as for so long. Somehow the only alternative to being a sociopathic genocidal maniac was good guy. I was rather fond of Itachi, he was an impressive and entertaining character. However, I don't think anyone's gotten a pass like Itachi has. People rail on about the unfair treatment, known and perceived, that the Uchiha were subject to....and then somehow ignore the fact that Itachi massacred every man, woman, and child in the clan with the exception of his brother, the one he slaughtered them for. That's more f@*!ed up than anything Sasuke managed to go through with.
    I agree. Why has Itachi, a guy who didn't even show mercy to elderly and children, gets a free pass every single time? I mean, it eludes me. If anything, he's the worst example people can pick in the favour of the Uchiha clan. The guy was a psychotic fanatic.

  6. #1431
    MH Senpai 神のごとし / Kami no Gotoshi / Godlike M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    I agree. Why has Itachi, a guy who didn't even show mercy to elderly and children, gets a free pass every single time? I mean, it eludes me. If anything, he's the worst example people can pick in the favour of the Uchiha clan. The guy was a psychotic fanatic.
    lolwhat? He's the worst example of a psychotic fanatic. Your best example would be Madara, not Itachi. How many children did he kill, anyway? I never saw any child but Sasuke in the flashbacks....



    But the bottom line is that all Uchiha are guilty of their actions, they did what they did with full awareness and deserve all the blame, even if influenced. Even if the curse thing was real, it doesn't excuse the Uchihas' actions, whether committing a genocide or wanting to commit a genocide.

    Futhermore, whenever multiple Uchihas were brought up (Uchiha who started to agree with Madara and Izanagi and Izanami users), we saw multiple Uchihas in the background, face or faceless. However when the curse was discussed, we only saw Madara, no? I have no reason to believe Tobirama's findings were true, accurate, or even thoroughly researched, especially when we have no proof apart from Madara. Same Madara who didn't even go irreversibly evil until he overheard Tobirama talking shit about the Uchiha, despite losing his brothers and being "betrayed" by the Uchiha.

    Same

  7. #1432
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Holt's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    lolwhat? He's the worst example of a psychotic fanatic. Your best example would be Madara, not Itachi. How many children did he kill, anyway? I never saw any child but Sasuke
    Come on, that's feigning ignorance. You're well aware there were tons of kids and elderly in the Uchiha clan. They were large enough to have a specific area allocated to them (even though they were being ostracized) and Itachi killed every last Uchiha.

    Tbh, I see Itachi as more of a hero especially since he did what he did to save the village (partly) but the fact is, what he did was pretty inhumane. There were few people who committed such atrocities in the entire series (probably only Oro comes close). I get why he did it but we're talking men, women (some certainly pregnant too), kids ranging from babies to teens, elderly who probably can't even walk and others all murdered in cold blood. Itachi was probably the most hated individual in part 1 before his motives/reasons were revealed.
    Last edited by Holt; June 30, 2015 at 12:51 PM.

  8. #1433
    MH Senpai 神のごとし / Kami no Gotoshi / Godlike M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13

    Quote Originally Posted by Holt View Post
    Come on, that's feigning ignorance. You're well aware there were tons of kids and elderly in the Uchiha clan. They were large enough to have a specific area allocated to them (even though they were being ostracized) and Itachi killed every last Uchiha.
    I'm just curious because rarely any kids were shown for the Uchiha or Senju.

    Quote Quote:
    Tbh, I see Itachi as more of a hero especially since he did what he did to save the village (partly) but the fact is, what he did was pretty inhumane. There were few people who committed such atrocities in the entire series (probably only Oro comes close). I get why he did it but we're talking men, women (some certainly pregnant too), kids ranging from babies to teens, elderly who probably can't even walk and others all murdered in cold blood. Itachi was probably the most hated individual in part 1 before his motives/reasons were revealed.
    Itachi is more of a tragic hero to me who admitted if he didn't put everything on his shoulders, he could have stopped the tragedy. Personally, I think he could have avoided the massacre if he killed Danzou, who PREVENTED Shisui from using his ability to stop the coup planning.

    Itachi was a better villain than hero anyway. Should have stayed a fucked up villain like Orochimaru, only more powerful. He was portrayed perfectly as a villain, even, with the cold eyes, stoic and calm demeanor, and mystery.

    ---------- Post added at 02:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:06 PM ----------

    Oh wait no, I'm just wondering because people keep saying he killed lots of kids, but we haven't seen many. We should have seen at least few more by now in the flashbacks.

    Same

  9. #1434
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J
    I'm just curious because rarely any kids were shown for the Uchiha or Senju.
    They didn't have to be seen. We were told they existed. Just like we don't have to see all the Uchiha who went crazy aside from Sasuke, Obito, and Madara. Because we were told it happened.

    "Pics or it didn't happen" doesn't always work. Especially when we can show pics of people SAYING it happened even it doesn't SHOW it happened.

  10. #1435
    MH Senpai 神のごとし / Kami no Gotoshi / Godlike M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Naruto Hangout Thread v.13

    Uchiha kids existing makes sense. Don't need proof for that. But you do need proof for Uchiha going crazy, especially when proof works against that theory. Saying Uchihas went crazy and only showing and thinking of Maddara doesn't prove anything but Madara being the basis of Uchiha.

    When Tobi was telling Sasuke about the history of Uchiha and Senju, we saw Uchiha behind Madara and Uchiha who started to think Madara was right when Tobirama became a hokage. We know Madara had a lot of followers before Konoha, and after Konoha a lot of Uchiha began to think Madara was right thanks to Tobirama segregating the Uchiha.
    When Itachi was explaining Izanagi and Izanami, we saw silhouettes of Uchihas, so we know there were plenty that abused Izanagi.
    When Hashirama was telling his story, we saw Senju and Uchiha standing behind their respective leaders, or fighting in the war (multiple Senju looking at a fallen Madara, even).

    So despite all that, why is it that we have yet to see any other Uchiha being shown as crazy? Why is Madara only shown? And given it was during the wartime, why did all Uchiha agree to truce with Senju and side with Hashirama as a hokage when the Senju likely killed their loved ones? If they really were crazy, we'd hear of some Uchiha fighting to death regardless of truce.

    Conclusion: Tobirama based the Uchiha going crazy on nothing but normal reaction that most humans would feel at the loss of their loved ones and likely confirmed his findings based solely on Madara. I have no reason to go by Tobirama's words at all. If he had proof, he could be the most bigoted bastard and I'd still believe what he said. Or if there was proof, rather.

    Same

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