And there is nothing to suggest that the Uchiha clan was missing during the Kyuubi attack. The only two stated to have been gone were Sasuke's parents.
And Kakashi's reason for keeping quiet was to avoid creating any more problems for the village while they were recovering. Learning that the higher ups discriminated against and then massacred them would be a slight on the village, not the Uchiha clan.
1.- Konoha is founded (yay)
2.- Madara dislikes village direction and rebels (first stupid)
3.- Uchiha begin following after madara (second stupid)
4.- Leaders get concerned over uchiha supporting madara's ideals and act accordingly. They spy on them, locate them in a section of the village where they can be spied on and keep them away from political power (multiple acts of greater stupidity)
5.- Uchiha plan a coup (for practical purposes, fifth and final stupid)
The key issue here IMO is the fact that at some point there were uchiha following after madara. There is no reason for us to think that madara did not gain sympathizers after he was defeated all those years by hashirama. The senju did gather a lot of power but its not because they forced their way there, the senju got elected, the village loved them. Its just the uchiha who apparently had a problem. And honestly, the higher ups would have every reason to be concerned about them doing such a thing. Hashirama WANTED madara to be hokage, we saw that much. And as madara pointed out, everyone loved the senju to much for that to ever be plausible. The response was what I called earlier "first stupid". Basically madara did not have a legitimate claim at power in the village and his response is to throw a kyubi at it. Not all uchiha necessarily agreed with madara but each and every one of them who agreed is a huge reason for concern. The whole thing ultimately did start with a crazy uchiha thirsting for power and revenge and several following him.
And madara is probably getting some redemption, he is likely reviving everyone by the time naruto is done giving him an earful. By the time naruto is done preaching madara is going to be on his knees begging for naruto to stop and reviving everyone so that he dies and there is no chance of him hearing naruto preaching ever again.
Mistrust,Selfishness,Misunderstanding led to the Coup and Massacre.Madara didn't trust the Senju,Read the tablet and went fucking crazy,Next Tobirama didn't completley trust the Uchiha and he makes a move,Some of the Uchiha misunderstood it but really didn't do anything.Later selfish Obito comes in,wreaks havoc with the Nine tails in Konoha,The higher ups go overboard and this is when things got really heated.
I can't say that Madara wasn't involved in the NTA although he was dead at that point,But he does know about the massacre (Probably through Zetsu) which is evident when he asked Sasuke to join him saying that they were the last Uchiha.He wouldn't give a crap,For some one who doesn't care about reality (ever since he read that tablet) He wouldn't >.> Well Madara is responsible for Obito's actions (Iam not saying Obito himself isn't,He did go back to Madara after witnessing Rin's death,He is responsible for his own actions too) since he was the one who introduced the idea of Moon's eye plan (Introduction of a certain idea is quite powerful) fed him with the Moon's eye plan and let him take care of it =P
I don't know where the other Uchiha "supported and started following" Madara.Madara left the clan.Sure some did think of what Madara said before he left the clan after the Higher ups went overboard.But it doesn't mean anything,Madara saying that the clan would be screwed didn't itself make their plans for the coup.The higher ups started screwing with then and you know the next thing that the Uchiha planned to do was quite natural.He challenged Hashirama to collect his DNA.He didn't just throw the Kyuubi at the village for revenge or whatever reason..Not because Madara was lusty for Revenge,Power and had people following him (Well there was Obito and Akatsuki through Obito but not the other Uchiha).He just went completely retarded by giving up on reality on reading the tablet.He made a huge contribution to the whole thing through Obito though.
The clan as a whole doesn't have to redeem.Every single person of the clan couldn't possibly be involved in the planning of the coup.It's the representatives of the clan.Some people of the clan,Fugaku and some other people of a council of some sort i guess.A coup which can potentially create a war and involve many numerous other lives can't be completley justified by no means,Yes.But it's some people of the clan who've planned the coup and some other ignorant people were in agreement with it (Well ranging from not so good to bad people) like Ninjabot says that can redeem themselves if they want to do so =P The problem is they aren't alive anymore and we don't clearly know how many people were completley ok with that and were supportive of it,So scratch that.
Obito did try to redeem himself,Poor guy couldn't.Sasuke is being helpful and i guess it makes up for his actions in the past and OP i don't know how him disagreeing with Naruto makes him crazy >.> He isn't joining Madara so...He has an agenda of his own which probably involves extermination of Tailed beasts? Well it's off-topic so i'll just leave it >.>''
The war that Uchiha desired? I didn't read it clearly before but the original post is supposed to be interpreted in a different way isn't it?Originally Posted by Narutotheory
While we know Madara gained a few sympathizers, there isn't anything to suggest they were anything more then a footnote. The sympathizers appeared during Tobirama's reign, yet there isn't any mention of any incident from then up to the actual point when the clan began to plot a coup, which wasn't about sympathizing with Madara. The coup was shown to be in result of Danzo's and co's discrimination and taking of their political power. And the only reason it even got that far was specifically because Danzo went out of his way to prevent any other option from being employed. The Uchiha clan was seemingly willing to negotiate, and Shisui was prepared to end it without any bloodshed. Danzo manipulated the entire situation just so he could gain more power, not because of any perceived threat. And in the end, the leader of the clan and coup willingly accepted defeat and death, which would support the claim that this all wasn't just a power grab.
But then, look at obito. Obito did not even appear to be particularly talented and he still became a monster bent on world destruction. No one missing nin or madara sympathizer is ever a footnote. The manga has made the point that every uchiha was an elite shinobi, every uchiha was an exceptional fighter of great power. Every uchiha had above average strength and chakra and among them those who have the sharingan are all able to potentially control biju. Even then, what tobirama told us is that the number of madara sympathizers was not in the least bit small.
Also, there was never any indication that the uchiha were willing to negotiate. Didn't shisui actually aim to use his eye to disuader the uchiha against the coup? And even then, what would a coup have gotten them? One way or another the kage and konoha leadership were indeed approved by most shinobi in the village. Does the treatment they got entitle them to power? Had there been a successful coup, would the uchiha be actual legitimate leaders? If their objective was fair treatment and their rights then a coup is the implicitly stupid way to go about it. They can't just fight for their rights via screwing over everyone else rights. In victory they would have become exactly what they were against and all on a misguided notion that uchiha had a legitimate claim to power (which they did not). Did they even try to expose the treatment they were getting? The uchiha were actually loved by people in the village, no one would have been happy at all if the truth became public.
As one who lived longer than his predecessor and even his sucessor, Sandaime should have known better and appointed an Uchiha to council advisor. Instead he allowed Danzo to run amok, which even indirectly led to the formation of Obito's Akatsuki, among other misdeeds. Even now Homura and Koharu are still spewing their drivel. This war is just as much an opportunity for Hiruzen to redeem himself as it is for the Uchiha.
Danzo and co didn't just move them to keep an eye on them, they were moved and basically quarantined. And they weren't "kept away" from political power, they had what little political power they had taken. The point is that despite proving themselves to be on the Senju and Konoha's side, they were still being treated as the enemy decades afterward.
Last edited by Impossibility; December 06, 2013 at 03:42 PM.
Well, but how exactly where they actually restrained from doing what they want? Were they not free to roam the village? Where they not free to live out their normal lives? Tobi did say the whole quarantine thing however we never actually saw or heard anything that would suggest anything more than spying was done to them. Spying is wrong in itself but is a civil war worth it? And that said, when has the manga actually shown discrimination against the uchiha from other villagers? Discrimination came from the lack of trust the higher ups had for them however the actual villagers never actually showed any ill will against the uchiha. In any scenario they would have been allies to the uchiha. Any time the uchiha have been mentioned by anyone who is not from the elders or danzo they have been referred to with utmost respect and they refer to the whole thing as a tragedy. If the uchiha had been hated or anything of the sort by the villagers sasuke would not have grown being basically worshiped by everyone around, he would have been in roughly the same spot as naruto.
The uchiha at the coup were not necessarily the same that sympathized with madara but the ideals were ultimate the same. Madara wanted the uchiha to have power, to be above the senju. So the ones that lead the coup were under the same thoughts. The coup aimed to bring the uchiha to power, not to reinstate their rights or right the wrongs done against them. Just as it was wrong for every uchiha to suffer from the actions of those that followed madara, it is completely wrong for the uchiha to take over. Taking means starting a civil war, a civil war with a population that mostly respected and admired them.
Obito was a separate case however my point was about how a single seemingly beneath average uchiha could be a huge threat. Narutoverse is different from our own, a single person can have a comparatively huge amount of power which can have a huge impact in the world. Obito is just an example of an uchiha gone wrong, an example of what could happen if an uchiha embraced madara's ideals. As for the sharingan bit, I am aware, thats why I wrote "Every uchiha had above average strength and chakra and among them those who have the sharingan are all able to potentially control biju".
What danzo said is probably true however.... so what? Was konoha supposed to strike last? Was konoha supposed to give up the chance to land the first blow if things came to the world case scenario? That doesn't make sense, it makes sense to prevent the coup through all means necessary before it happens rather than stop it when it does. If in either scenario the uchiha are all killed then the best possible alternative is one that does not involve the entire uchiha clan dying along with all those that die taking them out.
As far as we know the uchiha had been in charge of the police force since the time of the second hokage which served the purpose of keeping them busy and keeping them away from political power. So... what exactly are we presuming was taken from the uchiha recently? And to be fair, even if they did not have access themselves to konoha's leadership positions is still an important position which gives them a lot of influence. Also
Originally Posted by aegundono translation
Konoha has a sketchy system but a dictatorship is far from anything we have seen in the manga. Remember how madara got made hokage because hashirama wanted him to be kage? Of course not, people worshiped the ground upon which hashirama walked and hated madara's guts. Madara wasn't kage because people specifically did not want him to be kage. The system we know is the following:
1.- Council gathers of which the daimyo and other important people from the village are members.
2.- Council finds a suitable candidate to the kage position
3.- Jonnin approve a candidate or not.
The system is in itself biased however that does not mean an unwanted person was ever a kage. People had their say in the matter, the bias simply lies in that people were given the option to approve someone rather than to select people from a list. If anything everything we have ever seen in the manga is inherently against the notion of a dictatorship. From all angles. Sarutobi did not have absolute power, the elders limited him. The elders or danzo did not have absolute power, they were limited by the others. The hokage is without a doubt the strongest political force in the village but by no means was his power ever absolute. Even tsunade had to yield to what the elders and danzo had to do. The kage are not just being weak by agreeing with the stuff the other guys say, they simply do not have absolute power.
Senju and Uchiha built the village, and the other clans followed. Madara was Konoha's councilor before the village even existed. He even gave it the name it bares. Hiruzen himself said that even as a small child, Itachi had the wisdom of a Hokage. But instead of giving him a more productive role like Hokage's bodyguard, the council made him a spy. Hiruzen might not have known the finer details of what Danzo was up to, but he wasn't so naive to believe that Danzo's actions were always just.
Last edited by Dutchy; December 06, 2013 at 09:05 PM.
We were told two separate times that they were disliked, first from Haku and then later from Orochimaru. Just because they were respected and felt sorry for afterward does not mean they were universally liked beforehand. Madara showed respect and admiration for Hashirama, doesn't change that he also hated him. Ee respected Minato, despite being enemies. Not that it would have mattered, they had a right to be treated fairly and the right to fight for that. And the only ones who kind of worshiped Sasuke were his fangirls.
Aside from it possibly being a civil war being mentioned only once, with the rest of the time it being referred to as a coup or revolution therefore meaning the only people in danger was the higher-ups, it becoming a civil war would have meant those who supported them would have been fighting with them. Else it wouldn't be a civil war.
I think I'll stick with the other translation, given that the supposed usurpers showed no hard feeling about being betrayed or losing, but actually accepted it for the good of their child. Not exactly the portrayal of some power-hungry warmongers.
Hashirama wanting Madara to be Hokage and it not happening doesn't make it not a dictatorship. A dictatorship means the ruler holds absolute power and ability to make laws without any oversight. Dictators can be voted in, which doesn't make them any less of one. There isn't anything to support the idea that if people didn't like the Hokage, they could do anything about it after he was in office. Danzo was disliked, yet confident once he got the vote there would be no problem. As for absolute power, Sarutobi didn't have it only because he was a pushover for Danzo and the council, who did display it. Danzo sent an entire force of Konoha ninjas to aid another village in a personal issue, was continuously sending out his force to kill those he considered a threat, went behind the backs of two Hokages to do his own thing, and kept using a group that had been disbanded by the Hokage without even bothering to hide it. Tsunade outright disregarded the council to do what she wanted, allowing Naruto to leave the village and then calling Naruto back when Pain attacked.
Last edited by Rikudou King; December 07, 2013 at 12:42 AM.
The council didn't made itachi as a spy. In fact, t'was fugaku, itachi's father made him that way. Itachi just betrayed his father and his clan for his love to konoha. The council didn't forced him, itachi did that on his own free will.
And oh, fugaku clearly said that he wants itachi to become an anbu for their plan. So stop saying that hiruzen should do that or do this just because itachi had the wisdom of a hokage. Hiruzen isn't itachi's father nor his grandfather. Itachi became an anbu and a spy because of fugaku.
I think hiruzen already admitted that he let danzo do as he pleases. Well, they're best of friends and hiruzen knew that what danzo was up to is for the sake of the konoha.
The council was the one who made Itachi into a spy as far as we were told. Anbu are only chosen by the Hokage. And the reason for Itachi's actions all revolved around Sasuke. It was shown that he would have revealed all of Konoha's secrets had anything happen to Sasuke.
We were told that it was the higher-ups that made Itachi into a spy. Only they (Sarutobi) could have even made him an Anbu. Fugaku merely tried to use Itachi becoming an Anbu to the advantage of the clan. And Itachi wasn't even the only spy. We saw that they also had Shisui as another spy, though he appeared to have been brought in under Danzo's command.
And Itachi's reasons were specifically for Sasuke. Multiple characters have pointed out that Sasuke was the thing he cared about most. He threatened to reveal all of Konoha's secrets were they to touch Sasuke, and that was the reason he returned after Sarutobi's death.