There isn;'t a single piece of evidence to support the idea that they were "willing to kill anyone in their way". If that was true, then they wouldn't have allowed Itachi to kill them, or talk about how much they loved him despite him going against what they wanted.
And i think you're using obito's words, itachi didnt confirmed that. If my memory serves me right, obito stated that after hiruzen died, itachi goes back to konoha to threaten danzo that he, as madara was still alive. And that itachi will give away all of konoha's secrets. Do you honestly believe obito's words, do you? Whereas the only reason why danzo knows about madara as the masked man is when sai send him the report.
Fugaku didnt allowed itachi to kill them just to protect sasuke, FUgaku just clearly asked his son, itachi, to protect his brother. They didn't die to protect sasuke, they just asked itachi to protect sasuke. That's two different scenarios.
The uchiha is indeed a power-hungry clan. They want to control the konoha's political power. The konoha was suppose to be a democracy village, but the uchiha wants to demolish that democracy and change it to dictatorship. But they're forgetting something that the reason why they are still alive is because of the senju or hashirama.
And the reason why they don't have a political power is because they're greedy, selfish as hell and they don't have the quality/requirements to be one. No wonder itachi said that his clan is really pathetic. They really wasted shisui and itachi's talent and caliber.
Obito's story was confirmed true regarding Itachi and his actions. And Danzo believed Obito was Madara because they had met during the Uchiha massacre, something Obito states upon meeting him. Sai's report wouldn't have mentioned anything about "Madara", because no one else was aware of that until the end of the summit.
They made it clear they knew that Itachi was doing what he was doing to protect Sasuke, thus the reason they spoke of him. If they didn't know that, then they would have had no reason to assume that Itachi wouldn't also kill Sasuke on Konoha's orders.
Literally none of what you said is supported by anything within the series. If they were so power-hungry, then they would never have sided against Madara in the first place when he attempted to do exactly what you're claiming they were all about. And they surely wouldn't have remained silent for fifty-some years. Konoha is also far from a democracy. It was already a dictatorship, with a single person having absolute control.
The reason they lost political power was due to the council's prejudices. This was outright confirmed that Tobirama went out of his way to push them away. He literally admits it. Konoha was the problem, something already acknowledged by the Hokages.
No, naruto's story about his father and the masked man happened before the summit. So, sai's report was all about the masked man who fought minato and the one who used nagato. Well, kakashi did say that "that information" should be reported to danzo.
So if the uchiha will take over to the konoha's politics, then it means they need to defeat/kill the current leaders. But, the problem is, the hokage and the elders bodyguard will try to kill them just to protect their leaders. So with that, it's already a war. The elders already said that the uchiha must be killed because of the coup. So the elders, together with the anbus and ninjas will try to killed the uchiha while the uchiha will try to kill them all to make their coup successful. See that? that's how i imagine the coup of the uchiha.
Well, they are no doubt a power-hungry clan. Just imagine, for over fifty-some-years, there's no one from their clan who's strong enough to become a hokage. That's depressing. No wonder they planned for a coup, if they don't have the talent to become a hokage, then it's better for them to take it by force, but ofcourse they're going to fight as a whole. That's power-hungry.
See that? both you and Oro misunderstood tobirama's action/decision. Just look on what happened to an uchiha who channel his love to the konoha, they awaken their MS. So tobirama's action/decision was so awesome. Their love to the konoha would awaken their full powers. Tobirama knows that, he certainly is.
Just look on sasuke, he didn't awaken his MS by hatred, but rather he awaken it by love. (And soon, he'll going to awaken his rinnegan because of his love to the ninja world, to the konoha and to the ninjas. )
If the uchiha didn't blinded by their pride and just love their role in the konoha, for some-fifty-years, there would be someone who'll become a damn powerful uchiha hokage. ANd i think all of them would awaken their damn MS. After all, love is a powerful thing.
... All Naruto knew was that Minato fought some masked man, there was no mention of his identity or anything. That information wasn't revealed til the end of the summit. Danzo knew him as Madara because they had previous dealings.
Definition one and definition two. Your presumption of what they were gonna do makes no sense towards an actual coup, especially since as mentioned, a coup can be done without shedding blood. Some examples of such would be the Cuban coup by Fulgencio Batista in 1952 and the Brazilian Revolution of 1930.
Aside from the fact that a couple of people fighting is not a war, again, the Uchiha's have the means of defeating others without killing them thanks to genjutsu. And as far as it has been shown, avoiding being caught would be near impossible for them. Kakashi easily took down two Anbu at the same time with a single one. And of course, you're making the massive assumption that upon enacting said coup, they wouldn't call upon their own Anbu allies and quickly take control, before any counterattack could be set in motion.
shocked or amazed about his expression. Fugaku and Mikoto interrupted Itachi when he attempted to explain and stated that they already knew and then acknowledged that the way they thought was different. Again, if they didn't know, they had would have had no reason to not believe that Itachi would just kill Sasuke next, just like all the other children.
A dictatorship is any government that has absolute power and isn't responsible to the people.
Aside from the fact that strength has nothing to do with becoming Hokage, as we were actually shown, but who they knew, you still have yet to show anything supporting the idea that they were power-hungry. The fact that it took so long for them to act pretty much goes against that idea, as does accepting death without fighting back. Someone who's power-hungry would not just allow themselves to be killed, as we have seen from various villains like Orochimaru and Danzo.
Tobirama never even denied that he acted out of discrimination, something even Hashirama called him out on. And you seem to be forgetting how awakening MS works. MS gets awaken by strong feeling of regret, as shown by Sasuke, Kakashi, and Obito. If love was an option, then Itachi wouldn't have needed to manipulate Sasuke into hating him.
I would suggest you reread both the discussion over who should be Hokage at the end of the Pain arc and the mechanics of MS, because you are way off in your beliefs.
1. The uchiha planned a coup.
2. The elders literally said that they need to be killed, all of them, even the babies.
The entire uchihas are already in the death list. So how come danzo would blackmail itachi? Well, I'll agree on you if the uchiha didn't plan for a coup and danzo just order itachi to kill them all for sasuke's sake. That's a blackmail.
Force? How come? Danzo already proposed to hiruzen to kill them all. And kuharu also said that the uchiha need to be killed for their coup. Danzo just literally explained to itachi that hiruzen will act as a hokage when the time is right. Meaning, hiruzen will as a hokage and protect the konoha. So the uchiha will bound to be killed even without itachi's help. Danzo was merely made the konoha's job more easy to handle the uchiha, and that's itachi.
No. The problem is, the entire uchiha are powerless compared to obito and itachi. So it doesn't matter if they didn't allow themselves to be killed or they did, because literally, they can't do anything to protect themselves to obito and itachi's power.
Regret? How? Shisui died in front of itachi. Then itachi awaken his MS. Is that a regret? No. It's more like strong feeling of love to his best friend. Obito awaken his MS by his strong feeling of love to rin, and didn't tobirama already explained this one? That the more uchiha love someone, the more his power would awaken.(or something like that)
Last edited by marshall313; December 30, 2013 at 06:31 AM.
So the power of governing Konoha rightfully belongs to who? The elders? The only reason why the elders were able to preserve their own powers for decades was because they were successful in leading other clans into believing that the Uchiha was inherently "bad and evil".
We know that this is not true, considering that Madara was the only true villain and the elder's schemes were equally as evil - e.g. Danzou forcefully remove Shisui's eye for himself and refused to assist during Pain's attack on Konoha.
How do you know that an Uchiha Hokage would become a dictator. You don't. You simply pulled that out of your ass. You know what, that's like saying a Black president would become a dictator. Totally wrong except in the minds of a few bigots.Quote:
In actual fact, the elders council was already a dictatorship. They chose the Hokage candidate and then let the shinobis and the Fire Lord "rubberstamp" their decision.
As long as the elders say yes, the candidate would automatically become the Hokage. Tsunade became the Hokage by virtue of her Senju lineage, Jiraiya was nominated because he was the Third's student and Danzou was nominated because he was an elder.
Lol @ Tsunade. Strong my ass. Itachi would kill her in seconds.Quote:
Tsunade has no merit whatsoever to become Hokage save for the fact that she is the first's granddaughter.
There goes all your credibility. So basically the Uchiha rebelled because they felt like it? After 60 years of the founding of Konoha, the Uchihas suddenly rebelled because.Quote:
If all the Uchiha wanted was power, they could have rebelled when they were still stronger in the earlier days, not wait until 60 years later.
There is only one reason for this - the Uchihas eventually found out that the Konoha leadership has this bigoted mistrust towards them, and everything that was given to them (including the police force task job) was a FARCE.
Last edited by Ryr; December 30, 2013 at 08:16 AM.
But anyway, correct me if I'm wrong, didn't itachi already knew danzo's schemes when shisui told him that he tried to stop the war but danzo stole his eye? And I think both you and RK are underestimating itachi too much.(can't believe I said that. ) He isn't someone who'll fall from a blackmail and he can't be misled by someone. That man had a great insight.
That seems odd. I'm pretty sure the villagers knew that the uchiha is the most elite clan of the konoha. And I've never seen/read in the manga where a member of the other clan said about the uchiha as an evil and bad. The ninjas of konoha was really think highly to the uchiha. So I doubt the elders did that kind of action. They wouldn't just tell the clans that uchiha are bad and evil. The manga don't have that kind of indication,
The elders was able to preserve their own power because they're still strong to sit and govern the konoha. That's their law I think. They can sit in those power until they get bored and resign. Yea, danzo is bad, or I think he's very bad. But all of that is for the sake of the konoha. Well, he let the people died when nagato attacked the konoha, but it's simply because he knew tsunade can heal almost all of them........ and all of that is because of his ambition.
But anyway, madara himself didn't claim that power-sharing even though he really wants to become the hokage. Then maybe that's impossible to begin with. I think they already demolish ''who's stronger and they're the leader'' stuff. It's all about the democracy, the villagers or ninjas will vote for their hokage. Or maybe even the elders. So that power-sharing is really irrelevant.
At this point, it's pretty much clear that the elders are guilty, Danzo being the guiltiest of them all. Who suspected the Uchiha being behind the Kyuubi attack? The elders did, without proof but Madara being able to control the Kyuubi decades ago. They stripped away political equality from the Uchiha and refused to give it back, which indicates that the elders wanted to keep the power to themselves and were power hungry. Hiruzen was the only one who didn't want to exterminate the Uchiha, and based on Danzo's statements and conversation with Itachi, he desperately wanted the Uchiha killed.
As we learned, it was not for Konoha's own good, but it was to amass power for Izanagi. Maybe for Konoha and for the world, but Danzo still sacrificed countless of lives to become stronger. Although the Uchiha were planning on a coup, that was in response to the elders and their treatment of the clan, we still don't know if there'd have been bloodshed or not, especially among the innocent people. Madara was the only Uchiha who turned bad, and that was due to fear for his clan.
Tobi turned bad because of Madara and because he's an idiot, but he could still be redeemed. Sasuke wasn't truly bad until Tobi told him the truth, and even then Sasuke's convictions weren't 100%. Then he turned good after realizing what and why. Though the Uchiha aren't innocent, they're the least guilty. The elders are just powerhungry douches, and Danzo likely looked for any reason to kill the Uchiha and steal their eyes.
Itachi got forced into doing it.
And no, voting in a leader doesn't stop something from becoming a dictatorship. Stalin was elected, so was Chavez of Venezuela. What makes a dictator is that they have absolute power without any checks by the people. The President of the United States doesn't have absolute control, he's kept in check by the Legislative and Judicial branches of government, which each branch answers to not just each other but the public.
Except that's not true and goes against your continuous claim about them being power-hungry. Because it wouldn't matter to a power-hungry person how overpowered they were, they would still keep fighting, like Madara kept doing against Hashirama. And they definitely wouldn't just allow themselves to be killed without any kind of attempt at fighting back.
We were specifically told that it was their actions that caused the coup to happen. We were also shown that Danzo took Shisui's eye when he attempted to prevent the coup.
He didn't deny anything of what Orochimaru claim, and made it clear it didn't matter what happen to them in the end.
It would have been regret, having to help kill his best friend. And Obito's awoke upon seeing Rin being killed, again regret at him not being capable of doing anything to help her, thus the whole bring her back to life in the dream world. Um, aside from the fact that what Tobirama said isn't true, he was talking about the regular Sharingan, not MS, which is why we know it's not true.
there were alot of Uchiha's who were all for the village instead of clan, so that kind of blows a hole in your whole argument about the Uchiha clan.
Last edited by Rikudou King; December 31, 2013 at 12:57 AM.