2. The only thing he was afraid of was firing more than 2-3 Getsugas because then he'd lose it. But Grimmjow said, that he could as well shoot 1000 of them and it wouldn't make a difference.
It's not just blocking GRC. He was getting pushed back, then his GT lost to Grimmjow's cero, then he got pushed back again, got cut, and only THEN he blocked GRC. Yup, you're definition of a "fail".
Oh, I let myself delete the latter part, as it was basically trash, and you simply asked me to do what I did few lines higher, so it's really meaningless.
Oh, so you're saying that Ichigo, that is on his knees, with his hands being nailed with Grimmjow's sword, who, by the way, is trying to blow his friend's head off, will defeat Grimmjow IN A MATTER OF SECONDS! But suddenly Shinji pops out and saves Grimmjow from being humiliated! How noble of him. Too bad, that when he came Ichigo is STILL nailed down.
But we all know, that Ichigo would trash him in few seconds.
From 0 to 100, I rank Shinji a 100 (hypothetically). I rank Grimmjow back then 50. I take factors such as one-hand and exhaustion to give him +40. Thus, Grimmjow being a 90 and Shinji being a 100. So those factos didn't change the point, that Shinji IS stronger than Grimmjow. I didn't say how much stronger he is. Maybe much stronger, maybe slightly. Next time I'll draw you a beautiful picture for you to understand, ok?
You might have noticed, that I deleted some of your posts and didn't counter them. Those were the parts where I'd have to write the same thing, and a particular point is being multiplied throughout your reply. I also removed those parts about your attitude. I still consider it childish and writing about that 3-4 times won't change anything. I wanted to write something longer about your attitude there and end discussion about that, but I forgot what you actually wrote, and haven't sleep in like 30 hours, so I'll just skip it. If you want to discuss your attitude you're welcome, on PM. I'd prefer if we kept that discussion more on the right tracks. That is, post-timeskip Ichigo vs Shinji's fight. This discussion started to be more and more about Grimmjow. I'll consecutively delete some points to make this discussion shorter. I'm sure you don't really like discussions in this tone, that long. Well, maybe you do like it. I'll refrain myself from writing why.
Well, for one thing everyone should remember that Ichigo's Reiatsu is enormous (and he wasn't even close to his full power, since before he fought Kirge and more importantly tried to get out of Jail). It should be even stronger than Yama's. When Ichigo came to SS during the War everyone noticed this fact. Both his allies and foes. All the foes were shocked at his Reiatsu, since it was enormous. Everyone should remember that Ichigo took down 2 Sternenritters during the War. Only Kenpachi and Yama managed to achieve comparable things. The differense seems to be in overall power of Sternenritters, since Kenpachi's seemed to be weaker, since he said that he one-shotted some of them, but it's not the topic here. It just shows that Ichigo achieved more during the War than Shinji.
About Shinji's hax Shikai. I think even Shinji doesn't know how hax it is. If it was so hax, then why he didn't win his fight in this War? If noone besides Aizen and presumable Urahara (according to Shinji's fans) can counter it...
P.S. After his Bankai was broken Ichigo couldn't be in "constant Bankai", since he has such enormous speed only due to his sword, since it compresses his Reiatsu and enables his body to get faster, punch and slash stronger, so without his Zan, his robe only showsw if he has or not full Reiatsu, so he still used his base speed. And that's quite an achievment. Since Kirinji seems to surpass Soi Fong's and Yoruichi's speed by far.
If you meant him not fighting at all... he was looking for them, not finding them doesn't make his ability less hax.
Was it ever stated, that he has to hold his sword to get a boost in his power? He still has his robe (shukasho?) in Bankai, that represents his reiatsu. Tensa Zangetsu's blade doesn't really seem like his whole bankai. That whole form is his bankai. And he still IS in that form. I mean, was back then, now he can't be as he got new Zanpakuto. But then he couldn't be in Shikai too, as he gets new shikai... but his shikai is constant and he is currently trapped in bankai... Damn, too much informations.
Last edited by Duniak; July 16, 2013 at 01:33 AM.
It is obvious. The only ones who won against Sternenritters were shown: Ichigo, Yama and Kenpachi. Others never managed to win. Otherwise we would see this.
I know he was fighting, but he was never shown winning against anyone with his base abilities or presumably hax Shikai.
No it was explisitly explained how his Bankai works. It condenses his Reiatsu in his sword, thus enabling him to get an access to his enormous speed and physical power. Without his sword his Bankai robe doesn't grant anything at all. It just represents if he has or not his full Reiatsu.
2.The problem wasn't yet addressed, as he hadn't trained with the vizards. Only after he does so is he not afraid of going all out, because otherwise doing so made it easier for the Hollow to overtake him. Hichigo outright stated this during their fight in Ichigo's inner world. It's not limited to simply using Getsuga
What Grimmjow considers of them isn't relevant, we outright see two of them damn near kill him, leaving him bleeding profusely and to the point he was going to be finished offQuote:
Lol@ the bolded. The hell did that come from? Stop trying to project yourself (and your life) onto me, alright? Stay focused, lolQuote:
Anyway, once again, you're discounting the fact that the Ichigo he was referring to just exhausted his power.
How on earth is that a "logic flaw?"? Are you implying that both can't occur at the same time?Quote:
*Sigh* Funny you say nonsense like this yet in your closing statement you say:Quote:
How about saving all this whining for a PM, then? (Which, btw, I won't discuss in PM, as it's pointless)
So, Hueco Mundo Ichigo being pushed back by a full-powered, 2-armed Grimmjow who is stronger in Hueco Mundo.... means what exactly for Shinji, who overpowered someone without everything in italics? Not a thing right? Yet you want to talk about failing, as if you didn't just fail to prove your point hereQuote:
You probably should! Because at it is now, your argument here isn't even valid. Would Ichigo be in the same position if he weren't fatigued? You don't know. Citing how Ichigo performed in the 1st fight is wrong because he was afraid of using his powers, and the 3rd fight there were many different circumstances (2 armed Grimm, HM boost, etc), so in short you've no way of knowing whats necessary unless you arbitrarily assume that Ichigo would still lose regardless. Which you did, and I'm pretty sure I called baseless, fittinglyQuote:
I know because of their number, as well as their feats and hype (Basically, everything)Quote:
Also, the strength of their cero was not equal, hence why Grimmjows arm was completely scorched and Ulq was fine. Furthermore, him being able to sneak up on Ulq and trap him in caja negacion does not make him stronger nor equal.
Uh, what? Lol. Again, I'm not sure if you understand this, but simply because you believe something doesn't make it fact, nor does it mean someone else should. I'm not sure why you mentioned Yammy at all. What was your point? I'll tell you now that at best you can give me your assumption on Yammy's strength, not anything concrete. Given that it's repeated multiple times that the Espada are ranked by strength, even in multiple databooks, I'll take the authors word over........Duniaks, lolQuote:
Sure he was, but we also know that Ichigo was stronger in his fight with Ulquiorra. Or let me guess, "Stop listening to Ulquiorra, you should know better" So while he wasn't full 100%, he wasnt exhausted and infact he'd even grown strongerQuote:
Your "base" isn't base at all, it's essentially just some random information that doesn't at all imply your conclusion. None of it followsQuote:
Obviously he did put forth more than minimum effort if he wasn't going easy on him. What the? Do you even know what effort means? Clearly notQuote:
Does Yama burn the flesh off of people with casual flames? Did he do so to Tres Bestias? No? Then he obviously is giving more effort on Driscoll than he did them, clearly meaning it's not effortless
I never said he put forth "much" effort, I said that he obviously put forth more than minimum effort. It was not effortless. See above for the definition of the word "effort"Quote:
This is a blatant strawman. There's no way you could've mistakenly twisted my argument to what you're saying it is. Grimmjow was moments away from being finished by Ichigo here, obviously not when he's nailed to the ground. Which makes no sense to even assume I meant but whatever helps you think you're making a point I guess?Quote:
Oh, not to mention you completely ignored the point. Which is that Ichigo significantly damaged Grimmjow so much he was prepared to finish him. Just because Grimmjow turned the tables after Ichigo's mask broke doesn't mean his injuries suddenly vanished, so what exactly is so great about Shinji downing (for what, 2 seconds?) a already beaten down Grimmjow?
The internet, lmaoQuote:
It means I can tell you that what you're presenting is wrong if it doesn't prove your point, which it doesn't for reasons I've stated multiple times now. Do you know what it means to prove something? If you did, I'm sure you'd realize that my saying you failed to do that isn't stupid nor childish, though you'd say that anyway I'm sureQuote:
Yeah I mean that Fullbring that Ginjou outright says could've increased his base skills. Really why do I even bother...Quote:
It's not like he didn't know about him? Clearly knew about Ichigo losing his powers, Isshin, Aizen, etc.Quote:
Uh, no? A fullbringer being born of Hollow power does not mean Ichigo's hollow became his fullbring. I'm pretty sure Ichigo's hollow wasnt its own being anymore after he and Zangetsu merged again during his training in DangaiQuote:
Right, must be the same reason why we didnt see him wearing a mask post-dangai. Right? Obviously the fact that this possibility exists means yours doesn't have to be the caseQuote:
Seeing as your premise for this conclusion was terribly flawed I see no reason to trust you hereQuote:
Right because the guy that planned the whole setup for Ichigo along with Ginjou couldn't possibly have known anything about Ichigo prior to Ginjou meeting him, and that makes sense to youQuote:
Which is irrelevantQuote:
No, you rambled on and on about something I said nothing about and made a lot of presumptions in your rambling that you can't possibly proveQuote:
So what if it was discussed trillions of times? How is that relevant?Quote:
I've already shown how it was stated that Ichigo's power would transcend what he had prior by combining it with fullbring, and even Ginjou states that the fullbring could've made him stronger. The existence of these possibilities means you can't state that he wasn't more powerful and pass it off as fact
I'm aware of the rules, but this isn't about that. This is about lyght's statement, where he said "Ichigo was capable of 1-shotting SRs now", and how you attempted to refute that.Quote:
Already did. Multiple timesQuote:
Unfortunately you "deciding" the factors dont matter doesn't mean anything here. You need to prove they don't, which you'll be hard pressed to doQuote:
Also, half-brain? Really? That wasn't even funny, lol (And the lol is me laughing at myself, btw.)
Wtf? Lol, are you serious? Surely this is a joke and this isn't what you actually consider your proof?Quote:
Maybe a beautiful picture would be better, because that was frankly terrible from every standpoint. It relies entirely on what you decide each factor means, which is flawed from the jump. If all you can say definitively is that Shinji is stronger than a beaten down, 1-armed Grimmjow, then you aren't saying much of anything at all, as that doesn't even begin to prove that the same Shinji could defeat full restored Base Grimmjow
Well you should've asked him to substantiate that, instead of claiming that he couldn't which therefore allows me to come and ask you to prove that assertion you just madeQuote:
Get how the Burden of Proof works now? I also found the bolded funny, given the numerous comments "about me" you've made so far, lol
Actually these are two entirely different things, and no I didn't say that at all, but whatever. Not gonna repeat that again..Quote:
Wrong, just like all your other "facts"Quote:
Even if I did, so what? Is my disagreeing with you wrong, or something?Quote:
Pretty sure this is a contradiction, but w/e manQuote:
Whether you doubted it or not is irrelevant, you didn't factor it into your equation and thought that it was okay to act as if it's not a factor.Quote:
You quoted "putting much effort", so is that something i actually said or..? Also, you apparently didn't even know what effort meant, so this lecture of yours isn't really workingQuote:
Well then I'd be following your example, citing random things in the manga and making conclusions based on it (ie, Shinji is stronger). I'd rather not follow your example though, lolQuote:
Wrong. If it logically follows there'd be no problem with it, problem is yours doesn't, nor is yours even logically sound as you conveniently choose to ignore many factors that would otherwise influence your conclusionQuote:
As I said, non-sequiter then. Really doesn't matter which term you want to go with
I hope you're not serious. Just to show you how ridiculous what you just said was, I'm gonna perform a demonstration doing what you're doing to show why it's wrong:Quote:
Lisa is stronger than Byakuya. Lisa managed to fight Bankai Hollow Ichigo without shikai or mask for 10 minutes where Byakuya was nearly defeated fighting Bankai Hollow Ichigo for a few moments. It doesnt matter that the Hollow Ichigo Lisa fought was mindless because I dont consider it being mindless a factor. You may disagree with me but that doesn't make me wrong!
And about Ichigo's Fullbring... It wasn't stolen. Rukia even commented on this. Ginjo only managed to steal the tip of Ichigo's power. When he got his Shinigami powers back it was obviously seen that his Fullbring was incorporated in it. His stripes are the sign that his Fullbring merged with his Shinigami powers thus giving him a boost in Reiatsu and physical capacities in base form.
Ginjo only managed to steal a tip, a portion of Ichigo's power that included his Fullbring, Shinigami and Hollow powers with the later two beeing already merged with each other during Dangai training.
Has Ichigo ever one-shotted anyone of note, much less someone on Shinji's level? There isn't even an attempt to put a coherent argument forward for Ichigo. The answer for Shinji's ability seems to be reiatsu, but what indication is there that Ichigo's reiatsu is anywhere near a level at which he could just blow away Sakasama no Sekai.
Well, Ichigo took down one Sternenritter in the current Arc with just one-shot, when he wasn't even close to his full power.
Also, it's not that he would negate Shinji's ability. He would just take him down with superior attacking power of either Shikai or Bankai and his superior speed.
At the same time Shinji doesn't have any serious defensive techs or offensive techs. The only argument for Shinji is his Shikai that is presumed to be hax, while actually not. And at the same time even Tousen's Bankai was countered and it was considerably more hax and I do think that Ichigo's current speed of reaction is way better than Kenpachi's at the time when Ken-chan fought Tousen, so Ichigo may need to endure several swings from Shinji and then catch his blade or slice in the same direction he was cut from and that's all. Shinji went down after one slice from Aizen and I don't see any differense between current Shikai or Bankai Ichigo and baze Aizen in terms of damage frrom a swing. I would even say that Ichigo's Bankai should have a stronger swing than base Aizen's.
And seriously I even doubt that Ichigo would wait for Shinji to use his Shikai. He will just speedblitz him and that's all.
P.S. The same Shinji never won against anyone of note and never showed anything close to Ichigo's level by simple fits. He never even shown to be as strong as Shunsui, so to talk about his Level...
I didn't realise that a random sternritter, stupid enough to introduce himself rather than pick up a weapon, is someone of note. The entire premise of Shinji's ability is that his opponent is incapable of reacting effectively, Ichigo wouldn't be able to land a hit, regardless of what speed he utilises. You argue that he's going to use the method that Kenpachi used against Tousen, that wouldn't work. Shinji says as much, simply countering damage from the inverted direction would be insufficient because the mind wouldn't be able to process the many reversals in direction and sense, we even saw what would happen when Aizen took a swing at it. Even if one is accustomed to fighting in that particular way, their body will not adapt, and will continue to fight by reflex, which causes it to continuously succumb to the power's effect. Aizen defeated Shinji using an even more hax ability, a stronger illusion. I don't doubt that Ichigo has enough force behind his swing to bring down Shinji, I doubt he is going to be able to touch him. And Ichigo hasn't shown speed on anywhere near a level that would allow him to speedblitz Shinji without him being able to respond. This is the same Shinji who is faster than the other visored captains, and able to avoid a sneak attack from Tousen during his assault on Aizen.
Please try to show more respect towards other people's opinions no matter how illogical they might be to you.
Regarding the discussion, I'll side with Shinji. "Ichigo is strong, so he oneshots Shinji" isn't how I see this. I'm still yet to be convinced about how he will fight him once Shinji goes Shikai. Randomly firing away GT won't help him get Shinji, while his great speed is deemed useless with reversed perception. While Ichigo is most likely faster than Shinji, I can't see a huge enough in his favor so that he can counteract to his own wrong reactions.
Well, anyone is free to think he can do that, anyway.
I don't have time for going through the rest. But I suppose it's all the same, saying how my base is wrong, cocky attitude and saying about burden of proof and evident facts in fictional art. If you want to discuss it more, don't hesitate to PM me. But you probably won't do it. You won't be able to show off then, people won't see you, you won't be able to boost your ego, so you won't bother
The only way I see Ichigo winning is if he manages to one-shot Shinji, however Shinji is a captain of teh Gotei 13, has his hollow mask, and was the leader of the Vaizards too.
It's a bad matchup for Ichigo, so Shinji wins.
Again, it's Shinji's opinion that you can't counter his Shikai. He doesn't fooll your ability to sense Reiatsu. And anyone more or less strong can feel from where your opponent is attacking. If it was someone with the speed of Yoruichi or Soi Fong at least and with some strong moves that can oneshot Ichigo or at least take him down in several shots, then I would have agreed that it would be difficult for Ichigo, but Shinji never showed any strong attack. That's the main point. He can't bring Ichigo down easily, thus when Ichigo understands that his eyesight is fooling him him would just use his sensing ability and take Shinji down.
Ichigo wins this. Guy has appearantly far more superior stats like overpowering a sternritter in brute strength who absorbed allon. Allon manhandeld kirge who was overpowering current shikai ichigo. Current shikai ichigo left his badge at uruhara store so his reiatsu wasn't restricted anymore then add to the fact that his kentatsu alone in shikai is comparable to GT. The kentatsu of komamura a captain doesn't even come close . Or the fact that he. Ichigo is also a lot faster then shinji going by feats. He blitzed bankai ginjou>>>>current shikai ichigo>>>>pre ts shikai ichigo<=pre ts byakuya. Quilge had trouble just reacting to him even though he blitzed ichigo beforehand and has the added power of ayon on his side. Not to mention the improved reiatsu control current ichigo has his road was completely straight when walking in the garganta. So basicly shinji is figthing a guy with over 2 times captain level reiatsu and massive boost to his power due to fullbring. Shikai ichigo managed to palm 6 heilig pfeils barehanded coming from a sternritter who's arrows>uryu ishida>base yammy's hierro. Ichigo's stats>>>>>>shinji by a long shot
As for his shikai. given ichigo's durability he's likely not going down anytime soon. Also given FKT ichigo's incredibly quick analythical skills of gin's bankai. I doubt ichigo will be left clueless for a extended period of time. Also he can always fend shinji off with his omnidirectional Getsuga Thensou. Ichigo shouldn't take more then a couple of slashes also . Even if he might get caught of guard ichigo might have the reactions to dodge shinji's attack speed given released grimmjow can do it twice. He dodged ichigo's strike concealed through the smoke from a small distance. And reacted to sneak attack getsuga thensou by blocking it with on arm.
Unless released grimmjow has far better reactions then current ichigo can probably react to shinji's attack speed once gotten used by sakanade. Nevermind the large GT's ichigo has at his disposal to wrap himself in it.