Anyway, back to the general crowd, I'm interested to see the results of this matchup. Unohana just defeated Barragan so I'm curious if we'll get a similar thing here
How come Aizen couldn't? Aizen actually won. He just felt from what direction Shinji was attacking and that's all. It's really just a useless trcik in a one on one battle that can only work against the likes of Wondy. The problem is that he still needs to hurt.
At the same time Shinji's Shikai can work in gang fight, but it's a different thing and we must not consider it here.
I understand Shinji's ability. It's you who overestimate him overall. Not only his ability. If he is so godly as you say, then why didn't he win against any of Sternenritters in this War? Maybe it's because you overestimate his ability?
And of course he never showed anything special in terms of swordsmanship and physical power. Of course he gets a power boost from his Mask, but it doesn't last long and his physical capacities can't be compared to Ichigo's since he merged his Shinigami and Hollow powers in Dangai, thus technically his Mask is always on and also added Fullbring to this.
what a joke: shinji is dead before he even realizes it. his power is nice,but not haxed, ichigo's heavenly powerups would counter it with no effort
I'm going to go with Ichigo on this one, if it's after his power-ups.
He has a Blut Vene strong enough to defend against JB's attacks, so I don't think he could be seriously damaged from even a slash/stab from hollowified Shinji if he is prepared (surprise attacks aside). Besides, with his bankai speed, he just might be able to evade Shinji's attacks by going to the left or right when Shinji seems to attack from the front (a less effective way to evade, but one that doesn't go directly against what his sense are telling him).
Now to hit himn, I guess he could either
- do as Aizen did, i.e. after taking a few hits, wait carefully for a chance to counter-attack once he begins to get used to Sakanade's power
- unleash a Getsuga Tenshou so massive that he doesn't even need to aim for it to hit.
We both know, that this discussion won't get us anywhere, we both said what we wanted. About your points, sorry, I really didn't read them. Such discussions are fun for first 1-2 posts, then they gets tiring.
His mask is always on, AS fullbring. Don't say it's fullbring AND mask. Why didn't Shinji win with any Sternritter? And did he fight?Quote:
He seems like he fought. And why is he running looking for more Sternritters? Oh, maybe he already KILLED his opponent. And if he didn't fight, Shinji not being able to find any Sternritter DOESN'T make his ability any less powerful... How can you even arrive to that conclusion? He didn't fight, but he wanted, so his ability is weak?
mattiaildivino, slougloubarbaki: We take Ichigo as he was in his fight with Kirge. Thus, NO BLUT VENE, NO Blut Arterie, NO heavenly power-ups.
the gap in power is still to vast. ill edit this with all ichigo's current confirmed abilities in a minute or so.
EDIT; Ichigo's current abilities form the wiki.
Natural Abilities AKA Human form.
Expert Hand-to-Hand Combatant: Physically, Ichigo's Human body is in top form. Ichigo has been trained in martial arts since he was a small child, both professionally and by his father.
He has repeatedly shown great agility and coordination in his attacks. In addition to having powerful kicks and punches, Ichigo is proficient in counterattacks, takedowns, and body locks. He has repeatedly caught an opponent's weapon strikes with a single hand.
He effortlessly defeats multiple bullies and gangsters on a regular basis, and is a better martial artist than Tatsuki Arisawa, who is ranked the second strongest girl in all of Japan despite her fighting with a broken arm.
While he has stopped training, constant attacks from bullies and his father keep his skills fresh.
Enhanced Strength: Even while not in his Shinigami form, Ichigo is deceptively strong, smashing a man's head through a concrete road with a single kick, and later kicking Asguiaro Ebern from his bedroom into the street without injuring his leg from the man's Hierro.
Enhanced Speed & Reflexes: Even before learning Shunpo, Ichigo is a very fast and agile fighter. Ichigo possesses great reflexes, dodging a strike with no wasted effort and immediately counterattacking.
He can strike quickly, without warning, and in rapid succession. His speed allows him to follow the movements of faster opponents to better analyze their movements, and block otherwise fatal strikes.
Even when struck by surprise by Tenjirō Kirinji, who is fast enough to outpace Suì-Fēng, Ichigo counterattacked and injured said attacker without anybody else noticing.
Enhanced Durability: While only a teenage Human, Ichigo is a highly resilient young man, safely breaking free from a binding spell (albeit a low-level one) and withstanding an
assault from a large Hollow.
Advanced Growth Rate:
According to both Aizen and Urahara, Ichigo's most astounding ability is his growth rate; he grasps the basic control of advanced techniques in days where it would take several years for even the most gifted Shinigami. Shortly after gaining Shinigami powers and with no previous training, he began learning advanced spiritual
energy sensing techniques by sheer instinct.
While it takes most Shinigami at least 10 years to achieve Bankai, he did so in two days (albeit with the assistance of a special device invented by Urahara which was originally intended for three days).
He gains considerable experience in the use of Shunpo while training with Yoruichi, which was
done over the same period as his Bankai. Besides his improvements in his Shinigami abilities, Ichigo greatly increased the time he could maintain his Hollow mask, from eleven seconds to considerably longer amounts of time. During his first fight with Ulquiorra, he is instantly incapacitated by one Cero blast, even with his Hollow mask (which
broke within a second), but only a few hours later, he withstands another Cero from Ulquiorra without undergoing Hollowfication, and can analyze Ulquiorra's movements much
better than before, when he had "felt like [he] was fighting a machine or a statue" and failed to predict and counter his attacks.
Keen Intellect: Despite his somewhat punkish attitude, Ichigo is analytical, perceptive, and deductive. In his high school, Ichigo's grades are almost always near the top, despite
his work as a Substitute Shinigami. Aside from that, Ichigo can determine the pattern of his opponent's battle methods and form a proper counter-strategy to defeat his opponent's
Spiritual Awareness: Since he was a child, Ichigo has had an innate ability to clearly see spiritual beings and sense their presence. After becoming a Shinigami, his senses
have continued to improve with time, learning various advanced sensing techniques, such as using a spirit ribbon to find Yūichi Shibata (in bird form). Even from a considerable
distance, he can detect the condition of a being with spiritual power. During his intense fight against Kenpachi Zaraki, he clearly sensed and recognized Sado's energy signature
even as it weakened, despite the considerable distance between them.
Shinigami Powers & Abilities
Master Swordsman: In terms of fighting style while in his Shinigami form, Ichigo relies mainly on swordplay. Aside from his initial training with Urahara, he is essentially on a "learn as you go" training regimen; thusly, his skill has developed by fighting rather than formal instruction, becoming even more capable with every fight.
His overall skill allows him to fight evenly against sword masters of Byakuya Kuchiki and Kenpachi Zaraki's caliber. While usually fighting right-handed, Ichigo appears to be ambidextrous, as he is proficient in wielding Zangetsu in his left hand.
Shunpo Expert: Though not particularly versed in its various techniques, Ichigo is proficient enough in the technique itself to keep up with and even surprise high-level Shinigami
with his speed.
Byakuya Kuchiki, one of the most proficient users of Shunpo in Soul Society, complimented Ichigo's growing mastery of the technique.
During his first demonstration of this skill, he knocked out three lieutenants and grabbed his Zanpakutō before any of them hit the ground.
Vast Spiritual Power: Ichigo has been noted on several occasions to have tremendously vast levels of spiritual energy, well beyond most other Shinigami. He defeated a Gillian before awakening his true power with only his sealed Zanpakutō. Even at less than half strength, his spiritual energy is comparable to a Captain-level fighter.
His spiritual power is noted to be heavy, which surprised Renji Abarai, a lieutenant-level Shinigami. Ichigo constantly gives off reiatsu at the level of a captain. Even when wornout in battle, he can continue fighting effectively while still using Getsuga Tenshō or unleashing and maintaining his Bankai. Because Ichigo's spiritual energy level is constantly very high, even at its base level without him consciously being aware of it, he rarely becomes exhausted in battle, meaning the sheer resilience and amount of energy Ichigo has is monstrous.
Ichigo's spiritual energy is rather difficult for him to control, as he has no formal training in controlling it, and upon Hollowfication, his reiatsu fluctuates wildly, with it being unreadable at its lowest point and at its highest point greater than that of the 4th Espada Ulquiorra Cifer.
Due to this, and him having far more spiritual energy than his body can consciously contain, it leaks out constantly, preventing him from hiding it and effectively making stealth impossible when dealing with other spirituallyaware
He has learned how to harden his spiritual energy and enhance the strength of his attacks, or use it as a barrier to reduce the impact of attacks on him, if not negating them completely.
His energy is strong enough to hold back the Sōkyoku, a halberd with the destructive force equivalent to one million Zanpakutō combined, using only his Zanpakutō.
He possesses some skill in channeling his spiritual power, as destroyed the Arbor of the Sōkyoku, a seemingly impossible feat which surprised the Gotei 13, by channeling his spiritual power through his sword into the execution stand. Kirio Hikifune noted he and Renji consuming her special reiatsu-infused food would greatly strengthen their spiritual power levels.
Enhanced Strength: When he is in his Shinigami body, Ichigo's already impressive strength is greatly enhanced. He has knocked out three Shinigami lieutenants with a single punch each, one of which shattered one of their Zanpakutō at the same time.
His strength is great enough to easily stop repeated axe blows from Jidanbō before shattering
Jidanbō's axes in a single swing, and hurl Rukia a dozen meters into Renji's arms and send them both skidding several meters more, achieving both feats with a single hand.
With a single kick, he can break down and launch a large chunk of a stone wall. After regaining his Shinigami powers, one swing from his Zanpakutō produced a
shockwave powerful enough to overwhelm Kūgo Ginjō, making the Fullbringer mistake it for a Getsuga Tenshō.
[B]When fighting Quilge Opie, Ichigo grabbed one of his Heilig Pfeil with his bare hand without sustaining any damage, despite the considerable explosion it caused when Ichigo threw it back.
Immense Endurance: When in his Shinigami form, Ichigo's endurance is strengthened to the point where he can continue fighting effectively after receiving many injuries, and
can survive attacks which would easily kill normal Humans. It was stated by Rukia a Shinigami's life force is their spiritual power. As such, Ichigo can withstand attacks which
would be fatal to most Shinigami. Uryū once stated Ichigo was a monster in this regard, and Aizen commented on his ability to continue moving despite grave injuries.
Enhanced Durability: Ichigo becomes much more durable in his Shinigami form. During his last fight with Kūgo Ginjō, he withstood a direct hit from the Getsuga Tenshō created by his opponent, and the damage was only done to one of his arms and part of his face.
When fighting Quilge Opie, Ichigo withstood the impact of several Heilig Pfeil fired at him, unharmed, despite the powerful explosion each one caused. Tenjirō Kirinji, a member of the Royal Guard, was amazed at Ichigo's ability to endure the unique healing properties of his "White Skeleton Pond" and "Blood Hell Pond" for so long after fully healing without rotting.
Taking all of this into account (see the bolds) shinji's ability is more or less ineffective against someone like ichigo.
Last edited by lyght; July 16, 2013 at 05:34 PM.
@Jorge D. Dragon
Aizen didn't counter Shinji's ability by figuring out how to handle the reverse world, his illusion was simply more powerful. Unless Ichigo has added illusory abilities to his repertoire, that approach isn't going to work. He was losing, and then figured out that it was an optical illusion, which didn't compare to his ability to manipulate the 5 senses. It's right there.
As for Shinji's ability, did we see him fight any Sternritters in the war? I've never claimed he was godly, I simply pointed out that the idea that Ichigo would just one-shot wasn't supported by what we've seen from either of them. He was already a captain before he got a further boost from his mask. He took on a masked Mashiro without either his mask or releasing his Zanpakuto. He casually handled an unreleased Grimmjow that had just manhandled Ichigo. He easily outmanoeuvred Grimmjow, and is faster than any of the other Visored. He was able to escape Tousen's sneak attack in the middle of assaulting Aizen. Shinji has shown far more than enough that would allow him to release his blade against Ichigo. And since Ichigo doesn't have a counter to Sakanade, I don't see him winning this battle.
This discussion comes down to two things - Can Ichigo beat Shinji before his Shikai is active, and if not can Ichigo escape/overpower Shinji's Shikai.
To me, the answers to both of them is no - Shinji isn't weak, he is a captain class fighter with a hollow mask. He's not up to Ichigo's level of strength, don't get me wrong, but he can hold off long enough to activate Sakanade.
Then for question two, I think the idea that you just have to sense Reitsu to escape it is almost insulting to Shinji. He used it on Grimmjow to great effect, and he tried to use it on Aizen, expecting it to work. Now, since Uryu from the time he was introduced could sense Reitsu, then you have to assume Uryu from the time you first met him, hollow bait and all, could have beat Shinji's Shikai. Shinji is proud of his Shikai, and has used it to great effect. I don't, personally, think it would be defeated by something as simple as that.
As for Ichigo managing to tank/react to it, I disagree. Shinji in terms of power is pretty huge - he's strong enough as a captain, then with his Hollow Boost he becomes even stronger. If he cuts/Ceros Ichigo while he's confused, he WILL get hurt. He won't just shrug it off with Blut, since he doesn't appear to have control over it. I personally don't think he can react to it, either, because of Shinji's statement: "Can you fight when up and down, left and right, front and back, and the direction you take damage from are all mixed up inside your head? No, you can't. Nobody can. The stronger you are the more used you are to combat, the more likely your body is to react only to what you see!!". He makes it clear that the more experienced you are, the more you rely on instinct and reactions, the greater the effect of Sakanade. And Ichigo relies on his natural fighting prowess, his experience, far more than most fighters.
I think in terms of power, swordsmanship, speed, durability, Ichigo is stronger. But Sakanade is basically the perfect counter to him, using all the instintive reactions he's built up from fighting Hollows, Captains, Fullbringers, Arrancar, and in fact most people in the bleach universe, against him. I'd almost rank it up there with 'Killer vs Buggy' in terms of perfect ability match - of course, Shinji is plenty powerful in his own right, but Ichigo is stronger. Sakanade wins it for him though, IMHO
2. Here you can't say maybe. He either won or not. If it wasn't explisitly shown, then he didn't. It's logical.
3. No, my conclusion is - if his ability is so godly as you and other members try to show, then why SS even needs Ichigo and Kenpachi? If Shinji is so hax, then he should have won the War with just his Shikai, because noone can figure it out and react to him.
In their one on one fight Aizen figured it out and actually won against Shinji. It was never shown that it was illusion.Quote:
Where he won with illusion was a tag team fight against Aizen, when they ganged on him and Shinji used his Shikai to support his Team. And that's quite a different thing. When it's one on one it's easy to remember about it, but when youy are focusing on different things and don't look on all the opponents at the same time, you might forget about such things.
Aizen Shikai seemed to always be on during that fight, but it doesn't mean that he was using illusion all the time. It was on to be used, when needed and during Team fight, when he switched with Hinamori was the only time he used it. Otherwise Ichigo would have noticed, since in other situations he clearly reacted normally to what was happening with Aizen and others.
It's just... I don't really know how to argue with this... I think we see what was shown in the manga incredibly different.Quote:
1. Shinji never easily dominated Grimjaw in any department, because Grimjaw was half-exausted and half-dead. I thought Buzz Klinton already pointed everything out about this...
2. How come Shinji's speed is better than any other Vaizards? Where did you even get this?
3. About him beeing a Captain long before getting a Mask. When I used this argument comparing Komamura with other Vaizard Captains like Kensei and Love people said that it's my assumption and it can't be measured if as just a pure Captain he was better than Komamura and that Mask gave a sufficient power-up. So how come Shinji beeing a Captain would automatically make him strong? When he never shown anything worse mentioning as Shinigami.
4. Shinji's Mask doesn't last long the same as most of the other Vaizards. Mashiro is the only exception, so his Mask won't give him a long and sufficient power-up.
6. He several hits from mindless VC who just turned into Hollow. Don't compare her from before and how she is now. Now she trained and can control her Hollow powers and also developed them.
7. Well about Tousen... I would say that dodging baze Tousen isn't that big feat if we compare him to current Ichigo and his speed. Even though I admit that it was good and worth mentioning.
And again about Sakanade. It's a child's play. You don't even need to counter it. Any more or less relevant Shinigami can feel, where his opponent is and from where is he attacking. Ichigo showed the same, when trained by Ginjo, when his eyes were cut he saw Ginjo by sensing his Reiatsu. Ichigo doesn't even need to rely on his eyes in this fight. And onviously Shinji has nothing to actually finish this fight with one or two strikes in order to Ichigo to get that he doesn't need to rely on his eyes.
Last edited by Jorge D. Dragon; July 17, 2013 at 12:44 AM.
Shinji Hirako: 15
Ichigo Kurosaki: 16
Ichigo Kurosaki advances to the next round.
You can discuss the results in Bleach Tournament Discussion Thread.