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Plus, Yoruichi with armor doesn't have da speed. She said herself that she couldn't dodge Aizen with armor thingies on.
Well then, I guess I have to go with Shunsui. I don't think it will be an easy match for him but those games can catch Yoruichi off guard. She doesn't really have anything big in her arsenal beside shunko. If she had that armor she would have more attack power and defensive capabilities and I think with that armor she would still be able to match Shunsui's speed but that's just my speculation.
Last edited by shuha27; July 18, 2013 at 04:06 AM.
Here Yama states that he retained the position of CC because he's the strongest. This more than hints that the most powerful captain is selected to be Captain Commander. Maybe Kenpachi can say otherwise, but he's not a right fit for the position. Shunsui is absolutely top-tier, whatever you make of it. Just because you prefer Yoruichi, don't deny everything that even so much as threatens to cast the shadow of doubt on your ideas. That's the mark of a fool, especially since this manga is not exact science.
1. He did not want to fight, like he did earlier. Unlikely.
2. He observed the battlefield, since it drastically changed with the revival of Bar and Har, Aizen, Gin and Tousen being free, Wonderweiss and the Vizards appearing. Since Shunsui is analytical and perceptive, he'll feel the new situation out to act accrdingly. Underhanded, maybe, but effective wartime strategy nontheless. The cero did damage, but not nearly enough to really impede him. And Starrk's cero were insane.
And please, do not compare this battle to a battle that has absolutely NOTHING to do with this one. Quilge is an entirely different person, with different powers than the gunslinging Sternritter. Not to mention Ichigo is an entirely different combatant than Shunsui. I will completely disregard that statement because it says NOTHING about the power behind anyones Heilig Pfeill, except Quilge's.
So there you have it. you win some, you lose some, and you overall lacked a certain nuance. Remember that if you cannot doubt your own theories, or god forbid you might not even attempt to, you clearly haven't thought things through enough, and that endangers the overall strength of your theory especially as bias creeps in.
As for me, I voted Shunsui since I see him as more experienced, versatile, dangerous and skilled. Yoruichi wins in speed, but not by a huge margin. She probably wins in shunpo technique. She easily wins in hand to hand. But that is only a small part of Shinigami combat, and I see Shunsui being clearly superior in each other area, such as Kido, reiatsu, swordsmanship, etc.
Last edited by Smerten; July 18, 2013 at 04:54 AM.
There are vulnerable points on anyone, really. Take specific note of Nnoitra vs Kenpachi. Kenny was having a tough time damaging Nnoitra, so what does he do?
He goes for his neck, which Nnoitra quickly dodges. This is the same Nnoitra who moments before was gladly taking hits just to show how he couldn't be cut. Yet Kenpachi easily discerns why Nnoitra decided to move this time
But continue reading and Kenny makes another observation
Point Kenny's making is that no matter who you are, your eye and throat will be a vulnerable/soft area. So Shunsui getting his eye shot out is by no means a knock on his durability. If that didn't happen, well, OMQ would've had to be pathetically weak
It wouldnt surprise me if Shunsui is fluent in each style of fighting. Afterall, Yama was his teacher, and we know he is proficient in every category. Hes shown one instance of hakuda. That was completely dominating Chad with a touch of his fingers. He didn't call a name but the technique is called tsukiyubi or thrust fingers. So Yoruichi isn't the only one with hand to hand combat skill.
Shunsui is one of the fastest guys in bleach but he's a different kind of fast. He can't blaze about like yoruichi and ichigo do but he's got incredibly quick, unpredictable and expert sword skills. He won't want to get hit by big shunkou smack but I say he's got the right mix to face off againt yoruichi.
Read all of it before you write such nonsense.
Any speed feats by Shunsui to prove it? Because there are plenty of feats to show from Yoruichi. In Shunsui's case... almost being caught by Stark's Cero if not for Ukitake, being outrun by Yamaji and... this is the end of speed feats by Shunsui. Me having no rebuttal? Did you just accuse me of something you're afraid to admit?Quote:
So nowadays carrying someone from one place to another is a proof of someone's speed... Ok. "Covering long distance with one step" isn't SPEED. There are also reflexes, that are even more crucial. And long step is good for escaping. In real fight, you have to use it wisely, precisely to cover SMALL distance, in order for you to make a clean hit. And that's what Yoruichi is the master of. I don't know if Shunsui would use his extra long flashstep to attack someone. He does 200 metres shunpo, enemy is 2 metres away, pretty useless if you ask me. Also, no proof that Yoruichi couldn't cover just as long distance. Do you even remember, that you should talk about Yoruichi being slower than Shunsui, not about Shunsui being fast? Going by his feats, you have no proof. I can prove she was faster than average captain, devised ultrahigh-speed techniques for special corps, that SoiFon and Byakuya used. Also, going by the databooks, she could fight evenly with Soifon, whose speed is ranked 100. She outrun Byakuya easily with Ichigo on her back, that is ranked 90. Yamaji, who is ranked 100 outrun Shunsui easily, who is ranked 90. So yup, Shunsui is not outspeeding Yoruichi and Kubo himself says so.Quote:
Yama also didn't show anything to be considered very fast in manga. His reiatsu and Zanpakuto, that made him so invincible DON'T make him fast. Don't assume things in discussion, it'll make you look bad.
And he didn't dodge all Ceros, Ukitake saved him from one, he was hit by the first. The troubles started when Stark stopped playing games and shot more than ONE Cero.
Bro, I tell ya, reading the manga really pays off in discussions like this!
Actually, I can. Either that, or Yamaji's fire doesn't have effect on Ukitake and Shunsui, so they should have bigger reiatsu, which leads to complete bullshit. Ukitake's ability was thoroughly explained, it absorbs everything that is reiatsu. I wonder if it can be overloaded with power. It'd be your only possible explanation. Also, the point was Ukitake was there and Shunsui wasn't alone, so you should really stop spouting nonsense and don't cling on the least important parts of my reply to write something. I have a offer for you. You either adress the main point, or you write nothing at all. How do people tend to call it? Cherry picking? Something like that. I can be wrong, I'm not a native english speaker.Quote:
I disregarded anything? I think it's time for you to learn reading, because you obviously have a problem there, sir. You talked about three fights. Shunsui vs Yamaji, Shunsui vs SR with Grimaniel and Shunsui vs Stark. Which one of those I didn't mention in my post? Which point of yours I disregarded?
Read it, please?
You know why Shunsui played dead? Because he wanted Vaizards to take care of it and didn't want to fight. And I'm sure he wouldn't want to show himself in that state to his beloved Lisa! (that's sarcasm, in case you'd like to play smart)
But guess what. He was shot down with single Cero and he didn't play falling down to the ground, . I didn't say he was killed with a single Cero, just that he fell. And you know what? There was no Vaizards when he was shot and he really did take damage from that attack. Enough to stop protecting Ukitake from being killed by 2 enemies, that were next to him. And it's still so clear for you, that he just pretended to fall!
So it really was "cherry picking".Quote:
There was no "rest of your statement". To prove your point, that he is a tank, you used SR shooting his eye. Pardon my irony back there, but that point was just as ridicoulous as carrying Nanao being testament of speed. You also have NO IDEA how to discuss. How can you even say, that I have anything to prove? You attacked my argument, so as a counter-argument, you should disprove me with appropriate panels. Which you didn't. You can't say I have to prove anything, as it was me who first wrote about it and you chose to disagree. I don't want to badmouth that little flag under your nickname, but why does it not suprise me?
Yup, it was a gun shooting reishi, it wasn't an arrow. But then again, you write about something COMPLETELY irrelevant to my point, you cherry picker. And using your screwed up way of writing. It wasn't Grimaniel Vollstandig, it was Grimaniel, that looked like Vollstandig and I suggest you to stop making up things for your own convenience.
And you completely don't know how it went down... First of all, he didn't "smirk" about it. He commented on how he tries to act cool but is nervous. Then he himself said, that SR got him pretty good. And then again, you start to write more on a topic that is completely unrelated to prove your point that has nothing to do with your explanation. Thank you, Mr. I-have-no-idea-what-to-write-becase-I-haven't-read-Bleach.
Your original points were:
1. Yoruichi is not faster than Shunsui (or is even slower)
2. Shunsui is a tank.
None of the points (as you tend to call it), or nonsense (that word matches my taste perfectly in your case), were proved by SR shooting Shunsui in the eye, Shunsui carrying Nanao and Shunsui fighting with Yamamoto (disregarding Ukitake to suit your tastes, akin to cherry picking, right?). So let me ask you one question. How does being strong enough to fight with SR makes you a TANK. I think you should learn what that means. It means high defence and resistance, TANKING lots of damage and not falling. Example of "tank" is Kenpachi. Not Shunsui.
I know you won't write anything that has sense. So I have another offer you today! I'll answer your posts if few conditions are met:
1. You will counter my arguments properly, with panels from manga. At least you'll show me, that you read it at least once.
2. You will not concentrate on things, that are meaningless to original point.
3. You will not try to attack me as a person, you'll discuss the topic. Cherry picking? Pot calling a kettle black. And that pot doesn't even have a proper basis to say so, pitiful hypocrite. ..
4. You will not write the same thing again, because I will have already answered those "arguments". If you don't agree with my justification, back to condition #1.
5. You will justify your original points, instead of writing how Shunsui was good enough to make SR use Grimaniel, that has nothing to do with Shunsui being a tank or faster than Yoruichi.
6. You will check, if you know the meaning of the words you're using. Word "tank" for example.
One step means chaining the movements in quick succession so that the actual movement is perceived as a single step for others. In other words, it still denotes a speed of high caliber, which would reflect upon your reflex speed. Leaving the thinking part aside, which is unmeasurable, Hakuda pretty much only relies on that reflex speed to survive.
That long leap is consisting of many short, fast body reactions chained together (he doesn't teleport himself to a faraway point, after all), so, we can safely assume he has proof that he is fast. Well, probably not to the degree that he can win a Hakuda duel, but that would never be Kyouraku's aim in this fight, anyway. He needs to be fast enough on the defensive stance to survive and then take the initiative himself to dictate the fight's pace.
According to the databook, Shunsui's agility/mobility is 90/100, which means he's well trainned on this matter. And he got many feats in terms of speed, which were already stated by other people here, to prove that. He may not be as fast as Yoruichi, but he sure is not a slow fighter. Also, the battle is not decided by speed only.
Last edited by leshrak; July 21, 2013 at 09:54 AM.
Yoruichi Shihōin : 8
Shunsui Kyōraku: 20
Shunsui Kyōraku advances to the next round.
You can discuss the results in Bleach Tournament Discussion Thread.