Arrancars excluded, as they're all basically Hollowfied Shinigami which gives them pretty big boost. Bankai Ichigo is roughly as strong as unreleased Grimmjow in HM. He had to Hollowfy to handle him and his ressurection, talking about Shikai there is pointless. Ichigo back then seemed shit compared to other captains. His reiatsu was big, he was pretty fast, but he would never win against Stark or even hold his own like Shunsui did. If he lost against captain-class in Shikai it'd NOT be because Zangetsu is weak in shikai, it'd be because he was just weaker. Well, actually, he never had Zangetsu to begin with but...
Last edited by Duniak; August 05, 2013 at 07:01 PM.
No one likes getting hit point-blank, athough we've seen how Shunsui handles an even more powerful cero from point-blank range. And as you accept, unreleased Yammy was weak compared to the other Espada.Quote:
So what was your point in responding to my post on this front, my point has always been the advantage Shunsui gains early on. You asked which game was advantageous, my answer has always been every single one at its commencement, prior to Urahara figuring the rules out. And Shunsui doesn't become disadvantaged once Urahara figures it out, the rules apply to them equally, and they are once again on equal footing, in terms of the games. As for Takoni, we know what happens; Shunsui explained that whoever was higher wins. And your constant reference to the gigai assumes Urahara is aware of Shunsui's abilities, that he knows exactly when to utilise his gigai, while Shunsui's use of the shadow is a surprise attack, which Urahara has no prior knowledge of. It's well and good to say the gigai is an option, but it's another matter to suggest that Urahara is going to know when to use it without having full knowledge of Shunsui's ability. As I pointed out, Urahara is intelligent, he isn't prescient. And Urahara was hit by the first Bala, he admits as much. It is the subsequent Bala that he escapes using his gigai, which he admits is difficult to pull off. He likely utilised the time which Yammy, rather stupidly, decided to elucidate on his technique. The technique wasn't instantaneous. And Yammy doesn't know when it happened because he's an idiot, Luppi seems to have realised from a distance what was going on.Quote:
Fair enough. I tend to favour Shunsui's familiarity and experience with the use of his own techniques.Quote:
So far what we have seen from Shunsui is his games and swordsman ship. His games can go either way and in swordsman ship and Kido both him and Urahara are almost equal (Urahara excel in spells and Kido) .
So judging from this if Urahara figure out Shunsui's games use there to his advantage to defeat him.
Also another X factor is urahara's bag of tricks. If he use his inventions as well, he may be able to to defeat shunsui.
So all in all IMO Urahara wins
If it comes down to Kageoni, Urahara has to call a color he wants to hit. Urahara wears green with black underneeth. Shunsui wears pink with white then black. How is Urahara going to do damage if Shunsui doesn't give him the rules? Even if he figures out without hints, he only can hit Sunsui and deal consinderable damage by using a like color while wearing a large amount of this color. So basically Urahara would have to strip to his under garments and find a place on Shunsui to strike that is covered with the same color he is wearing. With that in mind, Urahara loses, sorry. Once Kageoni is played or any game, Shunsui has the upper hand considerably. And he can switch games if he wants as evidenced by calling bushogoma then takaoni against Starrk. Theres a reason this guy is Captain Commander! Lets not forget you are forced to play KK's games. So once initiated Urahara is stuck. All these claims of kido etc. are as useful as Starrk firing ceros. They did nothing. He dodged them but the one directly on his body, and it merely gave his captains robe a stain.
Last edited by freshseth83; August 06, 2013 at 04:42 AM.
As you wish, we'll drop Ichigo topic. It's going too much off topic.
PS. I disregarded the last part as the reply above is about the same thing.
---------- Post added at 05:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:09 AM ----------
And Stark's cero made him fall. I didn't really care about stains on a robe when he was falling on the ground, while his friend could have been killed.
I'm not quite sure how Irooni works - the Bleach Wiki description is confusing with the 'risk' bit. But nonetheless, to get the most damage you call a colour both you and your opponent are wearing. Now, they don't wear similar colours - the power to OHKO Starkk came from BOTH Shunsui and Starkk being mainly clad in the same colour. That ain't gunna happen with Urahara - it's still strong, but not unbeatable and not a guaranteed OHKO.
Oh, and remember Shunsui has no control over his games - he takes time to get some of the more powerful ones active. He can't just Kageoni or Irooni straight away
I don't think it's a massive advantage, but it is enough for me to favour him over Urahara. That slight advantage, in my mind, is more than Urahara's shikai provides for him.Quote:
The strength of the technique is unknown, but the rules have been put forth. We never got the chance to witness the game, but Shunsui spoke on the way it works.Quote:
The Aizen example is flawed by virtue of the fact that Urahara entered the scene utilising his gigai. He didn't make use of his gigai during that battle, he only took to the field after Aizen attacked his gigai. Shunsui is going to be facing the real thing at the commencement of the battle, so he's going to have to switch out in the midst of fighting, rather than prepping a gigai prior to. Very, very different, if Urahara was allowed prep time, like he was against Aizen, his gigai might be effective, but he isn't provided with that here. From what we've seen, the gigai isn't instantaneous, it is difficult to use in the middle of a surprise attack. It is the reason why Urahara was hit by Yammy's first Bala, but was able to avoid the others when Yammy decided to give an extensive lesson on his technique before finishing his opponent.Quote:
About prep time, I have no idea how it is. He can take his equipment to battle, who says he can't use it at the beggining?
Thats wrong as well. If he didn't have control he wouldn't have been the person calling out which game to play.Quote:
---------- Post added at 01:42 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:03 AM ----------
I'm not judging the outcome. However, like any other game, the individual that knows the rules is going to fair better. Until Urahara figures out this game, Shunsui is going to have an advantage. Even if it weak, it is still a slight advantage to Shunsui. I'm not pointing to this game for a fatal blow, but it is simply one more leg up for Shunsui.Quote:
We haven't seen his gigai engage in combat, it's only been there to take a blow. And I doubt that Urahara is going to be able to switch out without Shunsui noticing. Urahara himself pointed out the difficulty in utilising his gigai, and the only time he successfully used it in the middle of battle was when he was granted time and space, and a lack of attention, from his idiotic opponent at the time.Quote:
After Urahara reappears behind Yammy, he notes that he isn't going to get hit by any more of Yammy's Bala, indicating that he was hit by the first one. And we saw Yammy take a long break to exclaim about his technique in between the first attack and the subsequent barrage, that would be when Urahara utilised his gigai. Luppi actually comments on it from a distance, suggesting he noticed Urahara's switch.Quote:
The fighters aren't given prep time. He can take his equipment, and he can use it at the beginning. However, if he uses it at the beginning of the battle, he is already going to be face to face with Shunsui, he isn't going to be able to pull it off without Shunsui noticing. When he used it against Aizen, he utilised his gigai before he approached Aizen. That setup before was crucial because switching with his gigai takes time that isn't going to be available generally in the middle of battle, and the advantage the gigai provides is the element of surprise you gain from your opponent thinking they've attacked you when you're waiting in the wings. If someone notices you using it, it's pretty pointless. Unless Shunsui decides to go on a rant and look away, like Yammy decided to do, Urahara is unlikely to be able to use his gigai effectively.Quote:
The strength of techniques is enough to concern Shunsui. He needed diversion to catch Aizen. Shunsui isn't that fast and strong. Using point-blank Nake isn't really impossible. Ichigo can handle fighting with Getsuga, Urahara would handle fighting with Nake while playing games.Quote:
Well, so far it has been no advantage at all against Stark, so I don't take it into account.Quote:
Well, if gigai can't attack, then he switched with his gigai in front of Aizen. He commented on how difficult it is when he fought Yammy, but it was probably the first time he actually used it, so I understand it can be hard. In Aizen fight he pulled it off skillfully.Quote:
"I won't be hit by any more of this" doesn't mean he got hit for me. It can mean "It's no use shooting any more of them, they won't hit me" IMO. About Luppi seeing it, I'll check the manga, but later, I don't have time at the moment.Quote:
Shunsui doesn't need to look away. Shunsui says the name of a game, Urahara instinctevely shoots Kido in 30s like against Aizen, blocking Kyoraku's sight completely, he switches and looks what happens when Shunsui is executing his technique.Quote:
Just because Starrk didn't end up being particularly bothered by it doesn't discount its use.Quote:
Based on what? When Urahara came into Aizen's view he didn't attack until Aizen had already pierced his gigai. We haven't seen Urahara's gigai attack. And he utilised his gigai prior to being noticed by Aizen. There wasn't any switch during battle. He had time to prep a gigai and pull off a surprise attack.Quote:
In your opinion? That doesn't make any sense, you've completely changed the statement. If he says he won't be hit by any more, it means that he has been by one already. And how is that you're attempting to argue with me about the events that occurred with little memory of the events, or without even bothering to check the manga.Quote:
Exactly which kido spell is he going to pull off to completely shield himself from Shunsui's view, set up a gigai, and take up a separate position? And even if he pulls off the gigai, it isn't sturdy. The first attack is going to destroy it, and then that trick is done for. You've used the gigai as an answer to Kageoni, but you've yet to show how Urahara is going to pull of the gigai successfully, and do it at the exact right moment without prior knowledge of Shunsui's abilities.Quote:
And there is small talk:
And there is Aizen's attack
There are 3 options:
1. Urahara attacked from Gigai (he is expert with making all sorts of them, normal, reiatsu sucking, human/shinigami shells), which is what I wrote recently
2. He switched in that instant.
3. He attacked, (and Aizen didn't feel his reiatsu at all), quickly swapped with his gigai, (Aizen still didn't sense his reiatsu at all), started talking from gigai. And here I thought he didn't have his reiatsu hiding cloak with him.
If you have another theory how he pulled it off, please don't hesitate to write it.
There wouldn't be this discussion. "Hit again" is more suggestive than "any more" and it can't be used in any other context.
Btw, would you mind showing me where Luppi said anything that would indicate he saw the swap? I would really appreciate it.
Nothing there. On the contrary, Luppi was SURE Urahara will die and said how it's a pity he wouldn't be the one to finish Urahara who messed with him.
It's funny how you accuse me of discussing with little memory of certain event using half-assed assumption like that. And if we add the fact you had pretty poor memory of Aizen vs Urahara, we can easily say who is the one who doesn't bother checking manga. I'm sorry, that I have better things to do than discussing a manga topic on an internet forum. It's 15:25 now, people are working, you know?
That one. Btw, funny like you didn't even bother to check the manga even tough I said I meant kido used on Aizen. But you still dare to accuse me of not checking the manga while discussing. While Shunsui is blind for few seconds (he can't negate attack like Aizen, it will take him some time to deal with aftereffect), he has plenty of time to switch with his gigai. Taking separate position isn't problem, if Aizen didn't see it coming at all. Portable gigai isn't a counter to Kage Oni, it's a counter to any technique that can be used. Shunsui says the name of a game he uses. So much for a surprise attack... Urahara will know when Shunsui is using his game and can use his gigai then.
I don't have to PROVE Urahara can use gigai to lure Shunsui with Kage oni. It's a fictional manga and if we could prove anything we wouldn't be there. You have yet to prove Shunsui is smarter than Aizen and can't be fooled like Aizen. You demand me to prove everything, but you're proving nothing. Knowing you can't prove it you want to disprove me by saying I can't prove it. All we can do is show basis for our opinion, and that's what I'm doing, unlike you. Don't use word "prove" if you don't know it's meaning.
I'm aware of the sequence of events. Your first theory assumes an ability for a gigai that we haven't seen, it requires us to give the ability to utilise kido to a gigai. Your second assumes that Urahara can instantaneously switch with his gigai and move to another spot without someone of Aizen's calibre noticing, when Urahara himself has pointed out that the gigai is difficult to use, and the only time we've been witness to Urahara pulling out a gigai in view it wasn't particularly quick or subtle. Your third is feasible, but is most likely possible because Urahara wasn't the focus of Aizen's attention. My thoughts are that Urahara prepares a gigai, attacks Aizen, when Aizen turns the gigai having already been prepared is in place, and then Aizen takes out gigai. Simple. And Aizen makes note that he should've been paying more attention; he never imagined Urahara would attempt to use such a petty trick against him. At the end of the day, Urahara was able to use that ruse because he had time to privately prepare before the start of any engagement between the two of them, while he isn't allowed prep here.Quote:
Those two translations indicate the same thing. Regardless of whether or not you're pleased with my choice of translation, the conclusion of both is that Urahara was hit by Yammy's Bala, and only utilised his gigai after given time and space. Maybe if you'd bothered to check before insisting on another sequence of events, we could've avoided this. My point remains, Urahara wasn't able to utilise his gigai in the midst of a surprise attack.Quote:
After going to this translation, it seems you're right. The alternative translation seemed less clear, I misinterpreted it to mean that Yammy was the one going to die.Quote:
I'll admit to my confusion about Luppi's comment, but exactly how did I have poor memory of Aizen v Urahara? And quite frankly it's a bit rich to argue about bothering to check the manga when we could've saved a lot of time on the discussion about Yammy's Bala if you'd done so ages ago.Quote:
It's funny how that's an offensive technique, which only allowed Yoruichi to come in and attack Aizen. Aizen knew it was misdirection, and didn't even bother to dodge it because he wasn't concerned with Yoruichi. He blocked her first attack. So suggesting I was to somehow pick that kido from the manga is ridiculous. And this whole theory about Shunsui being blinded comes from where? Shunsui could dodge it, or block it. It's a level 30 kido without an incantation, it isn't going to be particularly problematic. And as I pointed out, even if Urahara manages somehow to utilise his gigai once, that's it. Shunsui has more than one game, and the greatest threat is Kageoni. If he is caught unawares by Shunsui's use of the shadows, the battle is over.Quote:
I don't know what the purpose of this rant is considering that nowhere in the post you respond to is the word 'prove' utilised. I haven't suggested that Shunsui is smarter than Aizen. I've suggested that the only reason Urahara was able to effectively trick Aizen with his gigai is because of a combination prep time allowed and Aizen's arrogance. Obviously, arguing for the outcome of this match is based on opinion. However, we utilise facts to form these. Apparently, you're incapable of having a debate without going off the deep end when someone critiques your stance or has a different take on things. Everyone here gets it wrong sometimes, and has strenuous debates with others, you seemingly need to relax and take a breather.Quote:
and I know we could have saved a lot of time, but working on a certain project and writing a reply in a free time is really tiring. If I replied now we'd have been left with 2-3 topics that we already sorted out and we'll still be talking about Ichigo.