I know that by making this post, I, too, am contributing to the lack of real substance (at least pertaining to the topic of the thread), but I figured I'd make it known to everyone.
We all love Naruto, people.
True, Exodi's main argument was that "un-used chakra could be used for something". Thanks, but I think every single member partaking in this discussion has gone into this thread knowing that already. Nor has he mentioned the point of the one-handed Rasengan, turning the clone problem mute, if Naruto keeps on doing them so.
Do you M3J and Exodi agree that Naruto is capable of using hundreds of clones at once? If yes, don't you agree, that the creation of a ten or so clones wouldn't take away much from his complete chakra pool? That so little is lost producing the clonea[and nothing else is lost as everything would return at will], that it didn't really matter in the grand scheme, that Naruto rather lost his the majority of chakra constantly using RM/SM/creating various kinds of Rasengan? I would appreciate an answer.
Last edited by Schabrak; September 16, 2013 at 02:50 PM.
That's one way out too. haha A simple yes or no would have been enough. I've read all your posts, but none gave an answer to this, if it is a noticable loss of chakra. Naruto may also stop jumping using chakra or running at all, as all that wastes a bit of chakra. And as you wrote, yes it would be better if Naruto uses no clone to create a Rasengan.
You tried to change the topic in the first post already, so maybe I shouldn't have asked in the first place.
Last edited by Schabrak; September 16, 2013 at 03:40 PM.
Kidding, obviously. And I can't speak for M3J, since I'm not M3J.
He's been known to make a clone or two. I'll have to go back and check.Quote:
Not kidding, this time. Over time, the spent chakra adds up. Leading to exhaustion, even for the powerhouse that Naruto is.
I'm aware of everything Naruto has done during the war. I think Kagebunshin is a huge part of that, bigger than what you are making it out to be.
He did make a lot of clones.
And is there really a way that we have to quantify the amount of chakra Naruto uses to make all of those clones vs. all of those Rasengan? Until there is, telling me that the Kagebunshin didn't matter in the overall scheme of things won't sit well with me.
Especially when Kagebunshin (Tajuu) has, from the beginning, been known as being forebidden because of what it does to someone's chakra.
Last edited by Exodi; September 16, 2013 at 03:50 PM.
Let's imagine Naruto wouldn't fall to PIS during the war, let's imagine he would create kage bunshins to create chakra tanks for when he's in need. He has the means and anyone with a brain would use them, but Kishi doesn't let him, so that he won't be any more overpowered, to give readers an untimely damn laugh. For Naruto those clones are helpful to the extreme, yet the author doesn't seem to intend to use one of the smartest things he as ever done for combat ever again. It's sad, but it's not Naruto's fault Imo.
It's not quantifiable, but using logic and the manga as evidence it will very likely take [far] less chakra to create a clone than a rasengan. The rational for that can be found in my comments towards charmilion.
That was to make the technique from the chapter that's supposed to attract most readers look significant and it was. Yet it has also simultaneously shown us how many Naruto was able to create, a number so high no other opponent was able to match him in such feat.
Not the the bunshins made him lose so much energy, but the gargantum rasengans/fuuton rasenshurikens did.
Last edited by Schabrak; September 17, 2013 at 08:02 AM. Reason: grammar
Naruto is an idiot. Kakashi had to explain to him about the learning experience of Kage Bushin, even though he had been using the technique for 3 years. Naruto wouldn't create chakra tanks for himself because it's not something he would think of, not to mention I don't think it's even possible for him to do so.
Naruto often times creates a dozen clones when 3 or 4 would suffice. He does this because he isn't Kakashi or Itachi and simply tries to overwhelm his opponent, not out maneuver them.
Naruto often creates two Rasengans when one would do the trick. He often creates a massive one when a regular one would be fine. Naruto is over the top. He doesn't do things on a small scale, he does them on a large one. (And if anyone shows the Mini FRS I'll drop kick you through your computer).
Despite this being his personality, it shows that he over does things and can be wasteful. You say it takes far less chakra to create a clone than to create a Rasengan. No argument from me. But how many more clones has he created than Rasengans? You cant say he hasn't been wasteful with some of his clones, and hell he's even been wasteful with some of his Rasengans.
The question isn't whether or not his chakra control is good, because it's certainly up there with the best. His chakra control isn't leading to him wasting chakra. It's his tactics and intelligence that are doing so. I'm sure Roman will say this is "hating" but would Kakashi or Itachi run out of chakra as fast as Naruto if they were given the same amount as him with the same skills?
But he's not such sort of idiot, why would he forget how he managed to save his village? Naruto thought it up the last time, why not again?
Rasenrangan and Rasenkyuugan were useful and didn't appear like a waste. :P The mini Rasengan wouldn't have been enough. The mass kage bunshin at the end of 545 was indeed helpful to cover a lot of ground.
Side note about the need of multiple hands. Zero real hands, six Rasengan.
Naruto's chakra allows him such fighting style, like it did for Kisame, Hashirama or Madara too. Special people, it's not the characters personal fault for being made so. It clearly allowed the alliance to take care of some ETs.
After using the above mentioned techniques + a Fuuton:Rasenshuriken, he loses Kyuubi mode because of long usage while creating a single clone.
Some chapters later, or rather simultaneous his clone is using a planetery Rasengan on Muu, a vain Rasenshuriken attack on Raikage, all while heavily implementing his chakra arms. Starts to create Bijudama to overcome defense, looses shroud again. Short wait, Frog-Fu induced Rasengan from two clones to finsih of the 3rd.
Rest of the clones appear on the battlefields, finding and taking out Zetsu clones for which he has to rely on his kyuubi shroud, slowly starting to lose the shroud on some clones since he's fighting two dozen battles at once, helping all fronts to overcome their enemies.
Madara appears, he's using Chou-Oodama Rasengan to supress ET Madara, failed[Susanoo], but three clones create a Rasenshuriken, again fail[Rinnegan].
Kurama is willingly giving Naruto chakra to let him fight Madara[look how happy is is, still sure about Kurama getting friendly within 1-2 chapters?]. Uses it up for a taiju kage bunshin wall & a multitude of Dai Rasengan to stop Mokuten. Kage appear and he dissolves clone, Obito fight start.
So far it seems like he used the appropriate approach, using sizes of Rasengan and his chakra hands wisely.
Another play of thoughts: When he has 20 clones out, and uses kage bunshin to create two or three others, will their chakra pools be shared by three or by all twentytwo? If it's the second, he could create clones to get more chakra for that specific clone, enabling him to create a bigger Rasengan than if those two only had chakra from the one creating the clones.
Last edited by Schabrak; September 17, 2013 at 09:55 AM.
Why wouldn't it be? I mean, I have provided good examples that directly contradict the manga's claim that Naruto is bad at chakra control by showing that despite his chakra being messed up horribly, he was still improving to the degree that even Ebisu was surprised. He even tried to make rasengan without a clone when trapped in Jirobou's jutsu, way after using a clone to make rasengan. Supports his Part I claim and contradicts his Part II claim horribly. Yet there are panels that show Naruto being bad in chakra control, like when he tried to summon Bunta when fighting Gaara and when going up against Orochimaru and Kabuto, but failed so hard.
The point of one-handed rasengan was probably already mentioned by me. Naruto mentioned it as well in his fight against Kabuto.
Yes, I agree.Quote:
No, I disagree depending on the fight. In the war, it takes a lot away from his chakra pool. In a fight against fodders, it'd barely take anything away unless he continues fighting onward. It would matter, otherwise Naruto wouldn't have gotten so tired in the past.
I have a question for you, Schabrak, and Roman. Do you think Naruto has unlimited chakra? That he'd never run out no matter how many kage bunshin he uses in one fight, can last through any and all fights? Do you think he never gets exhausted regardless of how long he has fought or how much chakra he has spent?
Of course not, but making clones for the Rasengan certainly isn't the reason he ran of chakra. That's what I'm trying to say all along, which is also why I bring blindness/hatred/delusion in the posts. I hope that clears it for you.
Naruto potentially running out of chakra from using a clone is not the issue here. At this point in the manga the idea does not make sense. Ever since naruto started working alongside kurama he has actually ran out of power a few times at least and it does not take kurama too long to replenish it. No one is arguing naruto is going to run out of power from using a clone to use rasengan, the point is that using a clone is one way or another an indication that naruto cannot actually use the technique otherwise. If naruto has to use a clone to use rasengan it is only to make up for the fact that he cannot do it with only one hand as several others have shown so far. Its not an issue of style, its a practical thing. Naruto can afford to work that way with clones because his chakra is virtually limitless however that does not mean his chakra control is on par with those who can use one handed rasengans.
Jiraiya himself is responsible for how naruto is in this regard. Precise chakra control is not something naruto needs because he can throw chakra at his chakra control problems(which is precisely what he does when he uses a clone to make a rasengan or uses an extra hand from his chakra cloak to make rasengans). Naruto is like a rich person throwing money at problems until they go away. Naruto does not need and probably never will need precise chakra control. Since naruto has virtually limitless chakra and does not need precise chakra control he simply never learned it. What we see nowadays is the result of that, naruto is able to summon huge power but there is not even the slightest indication that he is any good for the things which require finesse. Odds are naruto's chakra control for the things which require subtlety is actually well below average even today. In turn naruto would be second to none when it comes to calling forth unfathomable power.
I pretty much agree with this.
That bolded sentence. So, so true. Not that it's a bad thing.
That's just how it is.
The point I was making is that I would consider that wasteful behavior. That's just me.
Call me a miser, I guess. A chakra-Scrooge.
It is without a doubt wasteful. I guess it would have been wasteful either way. Shinobi seem to have to train chakra control in regards as to how efficiently they use it and how much they can call forth. Most shinobi would ideally balance this two unless we are talking about extremes. A shinobi with limited stamina (sakura for instance) would have to focus on efficiency so as to use his limited chakra to 100% of its capacity. Shinobi with a lot of stamina are better of focusing on using up all of their power. The difference between the two is why tsunade or sakura seem to be well capable of exceeding raikage's strength even though they have mere human levels of strength while naruto or the raikage seem to need biju levels of chakra for an equally powerful punch (or even inferior).Naruto using a clone is wasteful not because there is a risk of running out of chakra, it is wasteful because it is a technique which could and should realistically be used with a significantly smaller amount of chakra.