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I know there is a ranking of Captains thread, but thought I would add a spin too it. Since we don't know the majority of Captains Bankai I thought it would be interesting to see how Captains would rank if we take away their Bankai. All Captains past and present are included. All abilities are still included(Shunpo, Kido etc) just no Bankai. To start off, here is my list:
I am in no means certain of this list, there are a lot of characters I'm uncertain of. Think of it as a template.
Additional info: Aizen is pre Hogyoku and Kenpachi is pre Unohana.
So all opinions and discussion welcome.
Wut? Toshiro at the bottom even though hes the one in seretei that has the closest range betwen shikai and bankai?
Retsu should be under Yama and Kenny should be at 4. I am only taking into acount what we have seen. Maybe Kenny should be over Unohana but she healed him up over and over to get him up to scratch so.....hard one. 3-4 is the kenpachis though.
Also gin should be a lot higher, he kicked some major ass even before he used his bankai. And so should Byakuya. He has shunpo, a powerful shikai and good kido.
Can't argue nr 1 and 2.
I seriously question why Aizen is above Yamamoto, actually a few individuals for that matter. If it weren't for Wonderweiss, Aizen would've been dead when he faced Yamamoto, and that was with Yamamoto already under the effects of KS before the battle even commenced. I've already commented numerous times on how I consider Shinigami Aizen to be completely overrated, considering Isshin's brief skirmish against him, one would think they'd be closer together in rank. Kisuke has shown great intelligence, but I question whether he'd be able to handle the senior captains, I don't see how he stands against Unohana. Don't know what Shunsui has shown to rank him above Unohana either for that matter. Considering the comments about Hitsu's bankai, it would seem he should be higher.
Sajin saved Tosen from Kenpachi and has already beaten Tosen.
Byakuya cockblocks Soifon's hax Shikai and Flash Cry with his own Shikai easily in addition to Kido. Soifon doesn't stand a chance against Gin either.
Zaraki can tank Yoriuchi. Unless Yoruichi uses her Zan for once, she cannot kill him with just Flash Cry. I also doubt she is better than Byakuya and Gin either without using her Zan.
Shinji's Shikai won't really matter, considering Zaraki had no problem against Tosen's Bankai which is actually worse. Shinji cannot defeat Zaraki, even in hollowed form.
Aizen without Hog cannot defeat Yama in a legit 1 vs 1, this is even admitted by Aizen. Aizen only stood a chance due to Wonderweiss negating his Shikai. Yama, who I actually forgotten besides Gin, was the only person who understood his KS as well.
If you are gonna put Ishhin near the top based off his hype, he's gonna be behind Kisuke.
So the list would be better as:
2. Aizen (pre-hog)
4. Isshin (with hype)
14. Yoruichi (without Zan)
20. Jushiro (with illness)
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Kisuke can OHKO. Shusen can also basically OHKO. OHKO counters Regen-Tank Retsu. Simple as that.
The rest I agree with on what he should change in his rankings.
Last edited by TisForTat; October 14, 2013 at 02:25 PM.
And I didn't even realise that Ukitake was so low down the list, even ill Ukitake could probably wreck half of the captains.
People mistake this claim for Hitsugaya saying "My shikai is almost as powerful as a Bankai", when it could simply mean "The growth in power I obtain from Bankai isn't that much greater than what I obtain from Shikai" or "Because my zanpakuto is a kidou type it's ability is more important than the power increase, therefore the power increase is neglegable".Originally Posted by Sanadan
Remember that Hitsugaya's Bankai isn't "complete" so to speak, so the thought that it simply isn't as strong as it could be isn't that hard to believe.
As for the illusion of Byakuya's shikai being weaksauce, I point to his ability to shred through As Nodt's Blut. Also, the fact that Kubo simply won't let him use it the way it's supposed to be.
Look at the fight between As and Byakuya. Usually Byakuya uses SKY by hitting the opponent once and then talking trash while they get up. It's because if he was allowed to wield it the way it should be, Byakuya would be essentially unstoppable. Look at what As Nodt did to him:
http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/502/8 Two... and then a third strike as he's falling over.
http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/502/9 And a forth one while he's crushed into the ground, followed by innumerable poundings. He's essentially grinding him into hamburger without moving.
This is why Byakuya's bankai is so horrifying. Once you're hit once, if Kubo isn't deliberately holding Byakuya back, you're essentially fucked. Every sword swipe you make, every foot step, every time you blink your eye, you eat a god damn armory worth of blades.
The same should be true for Byakuya's Shikai. Even if it can't do grevious injuries from one single blow, it doesn't matter since he can grind you into chum if he wants without getting close. He can move Senbonzakura around you and attack blind spots, he can gouge out eyes, lacerate tendons, and burrow steel through your inner organs all while still dodging your attacks or staying out of harm's way.
And this is without including his high levels in kidou, or his shunpo mastery. That said, even in shikai alone, I still place him above every other "mid tier captain". He simply can't NOT connect with his attacks provided he's unhindered by plot.
EDIT: I just realized... shouldn't Ukitake be able to absorb energy with his blade whether it's a projectile or not? If he blocked a sword strike that was coated with reiatsu, he should be able to redirect the power from that blow through his other blade.
Ninjabot? Did you talk to me about byakuyas shikai? I think he should be ranked higher, read my post again if that was the case.
Toshiro had completed his bankai when he made that statement, there is nothing confusing about it, his shikai is close to his bankai and it is also complete. IMO toshiro has been under ranked.
Oh, no. I talked to you about Hitsugaya's bankai being compared to his Shikai. The rest was just my general opinion on Byakuya's rank in the list. Didn't care to list everyone though.
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The point I was making with Hitsugaya is that his shikai is close to his bankai in power, but his Bankai shouldn't be considered comparable to any other person's bankai in power, because it simply isn't. His Bankai is the only one with a time limit, and it's also dependent on his environment in order to use it's most powerful techniques.
In regards to Yama and Aizen, I do think Yama is stronger yet the nature of Aizen's Shikai is incredibly broken. I thought once you are under KS your pretty much screwed, that's why the Captains said that Ichigo was their only hope as he wasn't subjected to it. I could be very wrong but thats the logic behind my reasoning.
Regarding Toshiro, I don't entirely disagree with him being higher, but who would you guys put him above?
If anything, I would put Byakuya lower on the list. His Bankai isn't that great offensively both Ichigo and Zommari tanked it. His Shikai is going to be 5 - 10 times weaker. His versatility is why I put him where he is.
I put Kisuke ahead of Shunsui and Unohana, again, I am by no means certain of this but my reasoning is his overall abilities. I do believe Unohana is the better swordsman of the two but I don't know how she would do against Shunsui's Shikai. I put Kisuke above Shunsui because of Kisuke's intelligence. He has shown the ability to be able to immediately figure out how an opponent's abilities work and nullify them(Yammy's Bala). I think if anyone could get around Shunsui's Shikai, Kisuke would be an ideal candidate. Also while I think Unohana would destroy Kisuke in a sword fight, I think Kisuke's Kido, intelligence and Shikai may overcome her. I am open to changing this though.
I put Jushiro where he is because I haven't seen anything of him. I do believe he is comparable to Shunsui and one of the strongest Captains. But I don't know how much his sickness his holding him back and I haven't seen much of his combat abilities. Although you could make an argument that he would destroy most Captains with his sword alone, I really haven't seen enough of him to make that claim.
Being a master at every Shinigami skill + inventions, we have seen him to have potentially OHKO Aizen if he wasn't fused with the Hog, then there's the simple fact that he does eventually defeat Hog Aizen with help from Ichigo.
"Kisuke sux, nowai he cud OHKO aneewon, lolnop!" I rest my case.
Hollows with High Regeneration can be beaten in two ways. OHKO/killing them very quickly or hax "viral" abilities. 3 examples of what Hax "viral" abilities would be are Yama's Shikai, #2 Espada's Release, and Mayuri's Bankai.
Unohana fights only with Kido and her base Zanjutsu (her Shikai has no battle presence and OP said no Bankai allowed). Her kido is mainly for healing, although she is certainly capable of using it for seals, barriers, and destruction spells. Regardless to beat someone that heals their injuries, you must outright take them out or they'll continue to heal. That being said, Shunsui specializes in OHKO with his Shikai. With that in mind, I find it highly improbable that he'd lose. It wouldn't be a roflstomp, but it wouldn't be an even fight either.
I never referred to Yama in regards to either of the above being able OHKO him. Yama is well aware of Shunsui's abilities, after all he is his teacher and although he is not as intelligent as Kisuke, he has thousands of years of experience on him. That being said, Yama IS top dog. Therefore there is no disagreement and pointless mentioning to me if we already agreed on this single point.
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Both of them knew how to stop it. Zenpachi did the same thing when he was 2 vs 1 against Tousen's Bankai during SS arc. The inherent weakness of Aizen's Shikai and Tousen's Bankai is that if you touch the sword, it will not work.
Yama easily had Aizen in the bag, but Wonderweiss who was developed strictly to counter Yama intervened their fight. Then near the end he was forced to decide between killing Aizen and saving Kakura Town because Wonderweiss was about to explode with Yama's Shikai filled up inside him. Aizen played even more dirty than Shunsui does. Yama would've beat pre-Hog Aizen easily in normal circumstances.
That's not what I was implying, or meant to imply at least. I meant attacks that were coated in reiatsu. I was referring to something like an un-launched Getsuga Tensho, or Yamamoto's Zanka no tachi.Originally Posted by TisForTat
Byakuya's bankai isn't great offensively because it has to be limited for the sake of the plot. If it worked the way it's supposed to... well, he'd be unstoppable by anyone other than the most hax of foes. They both tanked one strike from SKY. That's why I took the liberty of showing that Byakuya isn't limited to hitting the opponent once by showing what As Nodt did in those scans. If need be he can hit them over and over again in rapid succession, just like how As Nodt did Byakuya.Originally Posted by vanyar
Not to mention, Zommari didn't tank the blow. He hid inside of the pumpkin around his legs and used it as a makeshift barrier, which allowed him to survive the blow, even though it severely weakened him. Had he not had a giant hierro shield nearby to jump inside he would've been flayed into nothing. And Ichigo survived because, once again, Byakuya chose to stop hitting him after the first blow connected, so that he could wax poetic about how awesome he was.
Byakuya's bankai is only limited by the necessities of plot, and since he has the same level of control over his shikai as he does his bankai, the same limitations apply. If he hits you once, then he can hit you twice, thrice, as many times as he wants, unless you have access to a 360 degree defense, or you have speed comparable to Bankai Ichigo. This, in conjunction with everything else in his repertoire, is why he can't realistically lose a fight to anyone in the mid tier list. Not Kenpachi, not Hitsugaya, not Soi Fon.
Not sure if this is enough to warrant a thread of its own, but I don't see any apparent reason to merge threads, since the other thread has been inactive for some time now. If it doesn't get bumped up out of nowhere, shouldn't be much of a problem.
Onto the topic at hand, it's not any easier to judge captains without Bankai, either, since there are a lot of characters who hasn't shown a Bankai yet. So, for instance, we don't know how fighting with and without Bankai effects Kyouraku in terms of power. Captains like Byakuya, Hitsugaya or Komamura wouldn't change their fighting styles altogether, since their Bankai is more of a volume related power boost. On the other hand, Gin would lose a lethal one-shot kill ability, and Tousen would lose an all-senses manipulation ability, therefore, it's safe to assume they lose more. However, that alone cannot determine their rank amongst all.
I think there is no real reason to challenge Captain-Commander's #1 status. Not even Aizen wanted to take him head on in a fair fight. With his difficult to read and even more difficult to handle Shikai technique, Aizen ranks #2. I also have no doubts that no one will topple Kyouraku from #3, since the captain commander position is a symbol of power, above anything else that can be a factor. Ukitake and Unohana would wrap up the top five, for the fact that the former is considered to be an equal of Kyouraku's in terms of power, while the latter is one of the few people who has the techniques to end a fight without a Bankai.
I believe anything below that rank is almost purely subjective perception. I don't think a fight between two captains can be easily determined with Shikai alone. I'd probably rank Shinji a tad above the rest, for that his Shikai also manipulates optical sense, which is another troublesome ability.
That doesn't negate anything I said. I said that in all of those instances Byakuya hit the opponent once, and then stopped.Originally Posted by vanyar
When he grazed Yammi, what did he do immediately after? He stopped attacking. He could have continued his attack, over and over, against all of his vitals.
When he hit Ichigo with SKY, what did he do after? He stopped attacking. He could have continued slamming walls and walls of SKY ontop of him once he was crushed into the ground, yet he opted not to.
When he hit Ichigo with Senkei, all he did was stabbed him in the foot... and then switched to using Byakurai. He also opted not to crush him with every single sword. This is another example of plot necessitating a lapse in lethality from Byakuya.
When he hit Zommari with Gokei, what did he do after? He stopped attacking. He could have continued crushing him, grinding him, and twisting his blades around in a tornado-like formation. But he didn't.
Senbonzakura is without a doubt weaker than SKY, and has less blades than SKY, but still has the ability to attack anywhere Byakuya wants, as many times as Byakuya wants. This is why it's terrifying.
Again, my point is, Ichigo could only tank attacks from Byakuya that subside after one blow. Do you honestly believe with any certainty that after Byakuya smashed him into the ground... that if he wanted to keep attacking him, Ichigo could do anything whatsoever to stop him? Let alone any other opponent?Quote:
As for Zommari, I'm not sure you understand what it means to tank an attack. When you tank a blow, you endure it's full power and can still fight at your best. Zommari lost all of his eyes after one blow from Byakuya's bankai, and couldn't do anything but one last ditch Amor. Once that was negated the fight was over. Any situation where you endure a blow and the fight is over the second after you endure that blow, you did NOT perform your duties as a tank, lmao.
I'm well aware of both of these points. There was no need to specify because once again, I'm not referring to sheer damage potential in a single blow. That's not where Senbonzakura, or even SKY's strengths, lie. It lies in Byakuya's ability to attack any part of his opponent that he wants to, from any angle, as many times as he damn well pleases.Quote:
Ever heard of the term "DPS"? It stands for damage per second. Byakuya may not be able to nuke a person in one blow, but he can tear them into nothing over time. And it's horrifying because there isn't anything the opponent can do if they can't block every area on their body at all times (something none of the mid tier captains can do). This is why his attacks have to be limited to one-shot attacks, followed by Byakuya spitting out a monologue about how much better he is than everyone around him. Because he needs limitations. No one would enjoy his fights otherwise because they would all come down to:
Byakuya hits opponent for little damage.
Byakuya hits opponent for little damage.
Byakuya hits worn down opponent with killing blow now that their stamina has been drained.
That's how it'd go against Hitsugaya. Soi Fon. And especially Kenpachi, thanks to absolutely no ranged options and canon showing of inferior speed to Byakuya. Yes with just Shikai. All the power in the world is absolutely worthless in a fight where you can't touch your foe. Kenpachi can endure tons of damage, but time will take it's toll. From all the reiatsu he'd waste swinging at an untouchable foe, to all the bloodloss from innumerable cuts, ( Senbonzakura would take both his eyes early in the fight). High level kidou would weaken him and eventually a sealed Senbonzakura would take his head. The one chance Kenpachi would get to actually lay a hand (or blade) on Byakuya would be wasted on an Utsusemi too.
Since nobody defends for Gin because he died, then I'll cover this part.
Page 14-15 of chapter 377.
This is good enough to cross out Kensei, Rose, Love and Kenpachi who doesn't take damage from weaklings but Gin's shikai is powerful enough to make a hole through his big body all thanks to Kenpachi hates playing dodge ball of any kind.