Somebody outside the legion
By any standards he is a good commander. He is capable of forming fast plans and rational thinking, as well as ordering troops and making calculated risks. Humanity would be dead if someone else was in charge and didn't make some of the decisions he did.
He's already shown to be easily better than Levi, Hanji, or Armin.
What do you mean humanity would be dead without him? Whatever did he do that saved humanity?
Also, it's my opinion of him and my opinions are my own. I could go on for too long but I don't feel like it. If this was real life we're talking about, he would be under the headsman's Axe by now for all the lives he threw in vain.
Last edited by KingOfNight; October 20, 2013 at 01:54 PM.
He can't predict anything? Like you predicted the Female Titan could summon hoards of Titans to eat her or harden her skin? Once he knew that the Female Titan had special abilities, he instructed Levi to refill gas and blades (something both Levi and Hanji opposed), doing this allowed him to save Eren (who will go on to probably save everyone). It's scenes like that which prove he is better suited than they are. It shows he can adapt his way of thinking in a situation.
He probably would have lost his position at the end of the Female Titan arc if his meeting with the higher ups hasn't been interupted. Even though if he hadn't of done what he did humanity would be in a much worse position. Regardles of your opinion of him that's true. Without seeing into the future he had no idea if lives would be lost, but he's willing to risk it for thew chance of success.
And this isn't even taking into account that he's brilliant n forming tactics, and is completly willing to die for the cause.
Yes, but I'm not the one throwing the lives of soldiers without a damn clue. He instructed Levi to refill his gas because of Hanji's hypothesis that the human inside can conserve their stamina, not his brilliant mind. So I wouldn't go giving him full credit. But I will give him credit for thinking ahead.Quote:
I would understand where you're coming from by saying he had to take a risk. But the problem is that it's not that he HAD to take risks, he CHOSE to take risks without any sort of guarantees. What good leader joins a battle blindly? Because that's what he did. That's exactly what he did.Quote:
We're going off topic.
Last edited by KingOfNight; October 20, 2013 at 02:49 PM.
Actually Erwin's method is the only one who can save them. It's true that a lot of person die in vain but it's not trying to act like an idealist that you can win against them. A lot of guys die but some sacrifices saved the permitted to help humanity( Ian for example), they were already dying in vain even before that anyway. Erwin has the will and the nerves to act like that, this is the best choice, soldiers need to be used like pawns. It's make or break.
Within the context of the story, Erwin is portrayed as a laudable hero and the controversy surrounding his actions is muted, but KingOfNight has some very interesting points. I wouldn't go so far as to call him a terrible leader personally, but Erwin's choices are certainly worth debating. Are his *risks* worthwhile, considering how little they know, or are they just desperate gambles paid in human lives (and remember the soldiers in this series aren't typically people who signed up because they wanted to)? At least Jean was willing to question Erwin's methods (while Armin was sold on the "risk something to get something" thing).
But on topic, I wonder what another commander like Nile Dawk would do with Recon?
Did everyone but me forget about Keith Shadis?
He has experience in leading troops for the Scouting Legion. (This guy totally looks like him, in both anime and manga.) He knows the price of failure and the feeling that losing brings. He led Irwin when he was starting out and possibly knows him personally. He's got the personality. With Eren's titan form he may feel as if humanity has a fighting chance and will return to leading. He's no Commander Handsome, as what the fandom seems to call Irwin, Keith is more Commander Terrifying.
Super bonus reason for Keith to return to front line duty.
He knows Erens father. There's got to be a reason why it was pointed out that he and Grisha know each other and yet Eren doesn't know about Keith.
Very true! Actually Shardis' failures (chapter 1) are probably why he isn't leaping to mind, as we were just discussing him recently. Having had time to reflect (and to see what trainees are capable of), he may have improved however. So if Erwin was gone he could still certainly be a viable candidate. (The anime treated him as the same person, so I think most here are tentatively considering that to be the case.)
Erwin's plan to "capture" the Female Titan worked, so the troops wouldn't have died in vain if not for her unveiling a set of new powers. Without her abilities (which no one would have predicted) they would have won. Once Erwin knew she had other abilities to Eren he thought about what might happen. If Hanji or Levi was in charge she wouldn't have told Levi to get the troops back into formation and leave, Erwin adapted his way of thinking and Eren survived as a result. Even Hanji didn't think she might have escaped.
The main issue here is the nature of the war humanity is fighting. The enemy they are fighting is enormously powerful, so much that it could have wiped them out at any time during the past 100 years, they know absolutely nothing about them, they have extremely limited resources and realistically not even what could be considered a good fighting method (unless playing steam punk spiderman around 15 m tall almost immortal cannibals can be considered a good fighting method). By all intents and purposes this was not a war, humanity was already cattle within the walls. They were already doomed, they already had nothing they could achieve. It was all a simple waiting game until the titan overlords decided they had no further use for the cattle within the walls and destroyed the walls. There wasn't a war going on, that would imply that for the past 100 years humanity had a fighting chance. Remember the capture annie arc? A single titan shifter can be so powerful that the strongest member of the scouting legion deemed it impossible to win against it. A coordinate effort by the entire scouting legion failed even after so much planning because of a variable for which they could have never accounted for.
Ordinarily yes, a mission would be chosen and planned so that it has the highest possible chance of success and could be forfeited if the risk was deemed too high but in this particular world things are by no means ordinary. Humanity, irwin, got desperate. Because there was no knowledge, because there weren't effective fighting methods, because they had no chance of winning, because there wasn't a war. So with the realization that they had nothing they were left with only 2 possible courses of action. One would be to do nothing as no military action ever against the titans could be done without taking enormous risks. The alternative would be to jump at whatever crumb of information regardless of the risk because even a fraction of that crumb would imply they have something contrary to the nothing they had earlier. The 3d gear is a recklessly stupid combat method that kills even those who are mastering it and yet it is widely used by the military because the alternative is to not have a fighting method. Pixis sent a worn out eren to cover the whole and ordered the soldiers to do whatever it takes to protect him while doing the job because the alternative was to let titans have a significant portion of whatever scrap of territory humanity has left. The scouting legion targeted the female type because it was their first chance in history to actually learn about the titan overlords at whose whims they lived under. Realistically speaking the coherent decision would have been for humanity to put eren down for the risk he represented but the scouting legion saw in him someone that could fight titans in a way no one else could ever have (a rampaging mindless eren took on 20 titans while it usually takes several scouting legion soldiers to take out a single titan). The scouting legion chased after eren when reyner and berholt took him because he was the only actual asset that made a difference in the war, because eren alone was more important than several scouting legions combined. And right now all that finally paid off with eren being a coordinate. With eren being a coordinate humanity can not only put up a fight against the warriors beyond the walls but even fight on even ground. Right now humanity is no longer at the whims of the warriors for the first time in 100 years. And that is because they acted like the doomed little rodents they were and jumped straight into titan territory into anything that even appeared to be helpful.
It's a new type of enemy, with new abilities some of which he witnessed for himself. She was bound to have some surprises with her. Normally, you would go for the kill against such a dangerous enemy or retreat. Even Eren stated that had they gone for the kill, they may actually CAPTURE her. Or they could have retreated, they at least knew she was after Eren and they could also make the hypothesis about who she was. He however, went straight for the most dangerous and idealistic option. "Okay, let's try to capture this new and completely unheard of Titan with strange abilities in the middle of a Titan-infested forest, what could possibly go wrong."
I didn't mean like guarantees of certain victory, I mean at least a guarantee that the lives he's about to throw won't go in 100% vain. He makes his move without any ray of hope and when he fails, all you can say is "Eh, what did you expect to happen." Unfortunately, throwing speeches seems to be his only strong suit. Okay, in case of trying to retrieve Eren from the Armored Titan, he could be excused. It was a shitty plan, but you could say "desperate times." The Female Titan's attack can't be excused though. And her capture plan in Stohness wasn't exactly awe inspiring.Quote:
He could not rush the hell out of things and use more knowledge for once. Can't say other leaders would've achieved anything note worthy, but at least they wouldn't come back with regretful corpses. It's not like he achieved anything worth noting by sending more souls to the afterlife.Quote:
Last edited by KingOfNight; October 20, 2013 at 11:53 PM.
I don't think at the time they could have made any sort of hypothesis as to who the female type could be. They just barely found out there were humans out there who could shift into titans a while back. Not to mention that the very clues that led the scouting legion to discover the female type's identity actually came from the mission to capture her. Without armin getting a close look at her and him hearing her say his name they would have never known anything. Unfortunately the only option to actually find out the capacities of the enemy is to engage them. Its not like they can go and gather intelligence on the enemy, they are at large far beyond the walls.
In the rescue eren from reyner part irwin did not really have a plan to be fair. They didn't have the time or resources to actually do that. Even getting the horses on the other side of the wall was already very complicated. They had 2 options, run behind eren like maniacs and hope for the best or simply not do it. Unfortunately giving up on eren was not a choice for humanity.
The only things that have ever been achieved in the manga have been achieved by recklessly and impulsively throwing lives at it though.Its not like irwin himself is doing a bad job... We are talking about a war in which humanity did not have a victory for over 100 years until eren closed the whole in the wall. And even that was just repelling an attack, its not like they actually got territory back. Think about it, 100 years of absolutely nothing against the titans. The best they ever did until eren was the 3d gear which is still not a particularly good fighting method. Its a miracle there even were humans out there with the will to fight, a century of failure is quite overwhelming.
True, true. I already said he can be excused here since he had no choice at all.Quote:
I understand how depressing it is to have nothing but failure for 100 year, but it's not like humanity can do anything about it by killing themselves meaninglessly. They didn't get any territories back because they're a bunch of idiots. Look at the Survey Corps, all they do is run a few miles away from the walls, get slaughtered, and then come back for another try later. I was about to create a thread about the Survey Corps' purpose because their logic escapes me. Do they expect to just find a huge revelation about the Titan's just lying there while they're running around? What good would running around like a bunch of retards do? We saw what they did in their expedition (when Levi and Hangi were just killing Titans for no reason), needless to say, it's ridiculously pointless. Desperation is not an excuse for unbridled stupidity. You can argue that they need to do something to keep the fight with the Titans and try to discover a few things about them. But if they can't tell it's meaningless after decades of failure, then THAT IS INSANITY.Quote:
---------- Post added at 02:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:38 AM ----------
I love Keith Shadis, he's awesome. Just seeing his personality is enough for me to say that he's gonna be the best leader they could ask for.
Last edited by KingOfNight; October 21, 2013 at 01:42 AM.
About the last paragraph with Nile Dawk...Actually, the one who told about Moses' mom that their deaths were in vain was none other than Keith Shadis. Yep. The instructor for the 104th squad. It wasn't Nile Dawk. XD
It's quite simple how Keith really just got to know Eren's father. Grisha's a doctor and probably the top doctor of the South of Wall Maria. And of course, Survey Corp soldiers would meet a lot of doctors due to casualties. What would you expect?
And I wouldn't go that far to reinstate him again. He was already kicked out of that job(or he resigned), and then they would want him to go back again? Considering that the last mission we had seen from him ended up in vain, I wouldn't really count on him as much. Hey, but what do I know? XD
Getting territories back? I think you are missing something here. Just look at the name "scouting legion", "survey corps".... They are not the conquering legion or anything of the sort. The scouting legion has no immediate ambition of getting a single square inch of territory back. They are the scouting legion because at some point humanity gathered and collectively decided they had not so much as a vague clue as to what could ever be done to regain a single millimeter of territory back. They are the scouting legion because they have not the resources, manpower or technology to even consider recovering territory beyond the walls. They are the scouting legion because at some point humanity looked at what they had to fight the titans with and they decided they had better odds of finding something useful outside the walls than inside. At least up until now not s single human military unit ever had even the vaguest intention of getting territory back. Besides, it has not been entirely pointless, there is a benefit for humanity to what the scouting legion has done even with all the sacrifices. Remember the second wall attack? It was the scouting legion that ended up finishing up the titans that remained inside the wall. While it has been costly, humanity does have a military unit capable of fighting titans to some extent at least. Imagine what their position would be if humanity didn't even have people like that. And of course the scouting legion is insane. If I recall even eren pointed that out when he joined them (and you know you are batshit crazy when eren points out your craziness). They have been recklessly and impulsively throwing lives at a problem hoping eventually something good will come out of it which is insane but they did not have saner alternatives. The only alternative to what they have done is essentially inaction, to remain passively behind the walls doing nothing. Just look a their technology, even if there is oil inside the walls they are still a full century behind any sort of technology that could allow them to fight titans (considering that cannons are not too effective even with their magical explosive shells I doubt even modern day tanks would be effective)....