If Naruto has a faulty jutsu, learns sennin mode, then comes back with a non-faulty jutsu which he never uses while NOT in sennin mode, this indicates that sennin mode fixed that jutsu. Now, you proposed that this is because sennin mode increases defense. Yes it increases defense against punches, kicks and falling. Does it increase defense against the poisoning effects of nerve penetrating chakra at cellular level? Likely no. Nothing indicates that.
But what else changed when Naruto gained sage mode? A very obvious thing: he's now throwing the jutsu, rather than having it explode in his hand. So the most logical solution is that the ability to throw "fixed" the jutsu. You're not supposed to keep fireworks in your hand. If Deidara only had bombs that he had to detonate in his own hand, he would have a shitload of faulty incomplete jutsu. The fact that he turned them into projectiles made them complete jutsu.
When having a discussion, saying that something is true "for you" defeats the premise of having an argument. We're trying to establish whether something is actually the case. There's no point in stating random opinions and leaving it at that.
Last edited by Xrayz0r; January 23, 2014 at 09:24 AM.
Sage Mode increases a lot of things and is the next step in Naruto's power. It's only natural that Naruto would expand the usage of FRS once he becomes stronger and takes the next step in tapping into his power, which is Sage Mode. Which again doesn't amount to original FRS being faulty because the original body can't handle the stress.
The premise of an argument is an opinion in this instance. We're both talking about facts but there are things that are left to opinion whether you like it or not.
My fist is not a technique. The way I efficiently move my fist toward someone elses face while avoiding any potential counterattack, that's a technique. Not just the part that hurts his face, but the entire method of delivering it to his face, that's the technique.
I assume you're not paying attention, not because you disagree, but because of the reasons for which you disagree. You totally disregard the argument that Naruto had a jutsu he couldn't throw, then gained sage mode, then suddenly had a jutsu that he could throw. Coupled with the fact that Naruto himself mentioned specifically that he had to keep practicing the jutsu while in sage mode, this implies that the FRS that can be thrown is dependant on sage mode.
As for the premise of an argument. I'm not talking about the premise of "the" argument, I said the premise of "an" argument. The premise of having "an argument" is the idea that one view has to be right. Why would you have an argument if you're presupposing that both opinions are equally subjective. If you make the claim that FRS is not dependant on sage mode or is not to be considered "completed" because of sage mode, that is not an opinion, that's a propositional statement which is either the case, or not the case. And we have sufficient evidence to show beyond fair doubt that Naruto has completd FRS because of sage mode. And the main reason for this, is that it can be thrown. Again, because of sage mode.
There's no such thing as "handling the stress". He could handle the stress just fine. It's that the jutsu destroyed his nerves, slowly reducing his ability to mold chakra. Sage mode can't do anything about that. What it does do, is stabilize the FRS so that he can throw it, so that he isn't near it when it explodes. For this reason, sage mode has completed the previously faulty and incomplete FRS.
Last edited by Xrayz0r; January 23, 2014 at 04:27 PM.
Naruto took it a step beyond that by figuring out how to throw the jutsu. I can only assume he was able to throw the jutsu with the same concept as frog kumite, which is by manipulating the natural energy around the FRS. Now the interesting question is how can he throw the FRS while in Kyuubi Mode. This has yet to be explained in the manga.
Did you really think that completing the FRS would also immediately give Naruto the ability to throw it and expand it? No, of course not. That came later, after he could safely use the technique in the Sage Mode. The fact that he had to practice it in Sage Mode means it wasn't a instant benefit when he entered the Sage Mode. He practiced and found another way to use it. You may add that to the benefits or you may not, you're the one who's not paying attention to my posts.
You're completely wrong. Naruto perfected the FRS against Kakuzu. The imperfect version was the one he clashed against Kakashi's Rasengan. Again, a jutsu isn't faulty if the body can't handle it. It simply means you have to strengthen your body to use it. Which Naruto did.
Difference in opinions.
I don't want to see you say "you're complicating things" when it obviously means you plainly haven't understood what's being said, which you then proceed to demonstrate. I apologise in advance if you're not being stubborn on purpose, but your ability to grasp things is rather pushing it.
The ball of chakra in Naruto's hand is not the jutsu. Your take on jutsu is utterly simplistic, and you haven't understood the fist analogy by a millimeter. The jutsu is not just the part the hurts the opponent. The way it is formed, how much time it takes, how much energy it needs, how it is applied, how easy it is to evade, whether it is self damaging, these are all attributes OF the jutsu. The entirety of its application, IS the jutsu. These determine, based on the cost benefit ratio, whether a jutsu is even useful, and in its current form: complete or not. Pre-Sharingan Chidori, was not a complete jutsu, even IF it could hurt others.
You could say about Chidori, similarly: "it's not the jutsu's fault that the user can't evade a counterattack". You might see now how incredibly dumb the statement is. The fact that the jutsu without Sharingan, comes at a certain probable cost-benefit-risk ratio, makes it incomplete. Sharingan turned an incomplete jutsu into a a complete one, without changing anything of the actual mechanics.
Similarly, FRS pre sage mode, was incomplete. Why? Because the jutsu was quite unstable in and of itself, as demonstrated by the first time it randomly dissipated before it hit Kakuzu. Second, because it's formation is incredibly obvious by the time it takes to form it and the amount of clones needed. Then the user has to get within punching range with this giant obvious ball of chakra. Without the ability to throw, it's a jutsu that should NEVER be used without a team behind your back to save your ass when you screw up, as demonstrated by what ACTUALLY happened, IN the manga. Third, even IF it hits, you're messing up your own arm.
Now THAT, is a hell of an incomplete and flawed jutsu.
I'll give you a list of things you failed to address.
- FRS doesn't hurt his arm, NOT because Naruto "strengthened his body", but because the jutsu is now thrown. Dont keep fireworks in your hand while they detonate. Throw them away. Strengthening the body does nothing to protect nerves on a cellular level. The reason it's now a safe to use jutsu, is because it is thrown. Two options: accept this line of reasoning, or argue against it head on. Do not weasel out.
- The fact that it can be thrown, is made possible by sage mode. I reiterate: Naruto explicitly stated that he had to keep practicing it in sage mode. He has never thrown a FRS while not in sage mode. Accept this line of reasoning, or argue against it head on.
- The previous proposition is backed up by evidence such as the fact that Kyuubi chakra eliminates the need for a clone. THEREFORE: access to stronger chakra increases jutsu stability and thereby reduces the need for extra control measures. Because it is stable, it doesn't dissipate, and so it can be thrown.
Now. Originally you claimed that sage mode was responsible ONLY for the oodama version of FRS. I provided you with all the evidence to suggest otherwise. Now it's up to you to find a way to talk your way out of this.
Last edited by Xrayz0r; January 24, 2014 at 03:13 AM.
No, it is Sage Mode's benefit. THere's no interpretation there. Sage Mode is the only reason why he could throw it, given we have seen him freely throw FRS every single time in Sage Mode. EVen with Kyuubi's chakra, Naruto had to bash the target with FRS.
FRS is drawn the same whether with or without Sage Mode, but it works differently. Sage Mode allows Naruto to throw it and thus, remove any potential damage to himself. It also works differently because it shreds the target, while FRS without natural chakra does not let Naruto throw it or shred the target.
Actually that's not true. Naruto has, on many occasions, thrown the FRS in kyuubi mode. Come on people, let's not argue what the manga clearly shows. A good question would be, how can he throw it in kyuubi mode? However kishi has not explained that.
Even if he could throw FRS in Kyuubi mode, it's wouldn't be much of a surprise. What would surprise me is if he couldn't do it, or something similar, in Kyuubi mode. Then we'd have to come up with an ad hoc for what's so special about sage chakra that it can stabilize a jutsu that Kyuubi chakra can't. The simplest answer and the one most consistent with the facts is that strong chakra makes up for chakra control. Personally I wouldn't say that's intuitively right (something more powerful should be harder to control), but it happens to be the case.
I don't feel like reading all the chapters again to find out how FRS has been used. I don't remember FRS actually having been thrown in pure Kyuubi mode, I'm thinking he can only extend his Kyuubi arm into someone, not actually "throw".
If I had to come up with an ad hoc for this, I'd say sage mode enables throwing by using the energy within the actual environment as a means of extra control, which Kyuubi chakra can't.
Last edited by Xrayz0r; January 24, 2014 at 03:53 AM.
The thing is, I think the sage mode was able to expand/worked naruto's brain thus he found a way on how to used his frs without being hurt. I don't know, but I think deva pain mentioned that naruto's frs took amount a large amount of his senjutsu, that's no doubt a simple clue on why the reason naruto can threw his frs. In sage mode, naruto can only used/throw 2 of his frs. That's his limitation and his chakra/senjutsu's limitation. It's nothing to do with the quality of chakra, but it's more like the quantity of chakra that enable naruto to threw his frs.
---------- Post added at 11:05 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:59 AM ----------
There is. It's not an instant benefit, like I said before, because he had to practice it. Immediately if he had to practice for it means that the Sage Mode doesn't have to be deciding factor because of it. Why? If Naruto found another way to exclude the risk of injuring himself, I wonder then if he could move on to throwing it and expanding it.
You're wrong. It shreds the opponent even without Natural chakra. You're the one who needs to reread the chapters where Tsunade said it. That's why it's the same version in Sage Mode if it's not Oodama.
Last edited by Roman; January 24, 2014 at 05:07 AM.
I will give you this: based on the explanation kishi has shown us, he shouldn't be able to throw it outside of sage mode but he can. Seemingly, the only reason we've been given that justifies this is that kyuubi chakra is stronger than sage chakra. So, logically you're right but according to kishi, you're wrong lol
On top of that he has bashed the FRS(not thrown) while in sage mode when trying to take the kyuubi chakra. I feel like on top of influencing the nature around the FRS to throw it, sage mode also increases his healing and recovery so he can effectively throw ans hold/bash FRS without any negative consequences.
Last edited by jiraiyanindo; January 24, 2014 at 08:44 AM.
Huh? That makes no sense to me at all.Quote:
He has to practice because it's the first time he's combining Sage Mode with FRS. He has to balance the chakra and learn how to do the FRS and improve it. If Naruto learned about controlling natural energy from afar, then he already guessed he could throw it and trained to do that first before moving on expanding it and all.
How am I wrong? If it shreds the opponent then Kakuzu should have been completely shred. I remember the chapter, and she said it worked more like needles.
That's why I said it's left for interpretation. He succeeded in creating and executing the FRS without the Sage Mode. That's a fact and it has nothing to do with another fact that it damages the user. FRS was just a technique that required the body stats to be higher in order to not damage the body. Hence why I'm saying it's the same FRS he did against Kakuzu and why throwing and expanding it doesn't have to be attributed to Sage Mode because he would probably do the same if he found an alternative to Sage Mode, i.e. a solution for not damaging the body.
Semantics. It severs/slices/cuts/shreds on a microscopic level.
If you like rereading the manga so much, maybe you could tell me which chapter Naruto throws FRS in kyuubi mode. I'd like to see it. Your analysis on FRS in sage mode is the best explanation I can come up with also, but I don't see why anything similar can't be done in kyuubi mode. Especially since kyuubi mode eliminates the need for a clone to form regular Rasengan, implying that the dense chakra aura makes up for chakra control by providing jutsu stability.
Actually the fun part is, the other guy claiming that pre-sage mode FRS was already a complete jutsu shoots himself in the foot. If the non-thrown FRS is a complete jutsu, then what is the one that can be thrown? If not a completed version, that would make it an entirely new jutsu, which is exactly my point. Hence, the sage mode FRS is a completely different, fixed, completed, non-flawed, whichever term you like to apply, jutsu.
The above paragraph is just exemplary of your entire problem around here. You do not reason. And when the other person does, you weasel out by saying "don't make it rocket science", a cunning way of saying "sorry I can't keep up, but I don't feel like losing an argument in public either".
As for "outrageous assumptions considered to be facts". If you pay attention, it's all carefully reasoned. It's facts taken from the manga, reason applied, leads to conclusions. When you disagree with the conclusions, all you have to do is show why the arguments are invalid, incoherent, inconsistent, or based on faulty premises. You never do any of this. That's it.
Last edited by Xrayz0r; January 25, 2014 at 04:22 AM.