This proves that you don't understand a single word I've said or that you don't even bother to understand my point of view. Your example of Kamui and MS is ridiculous because we know for a fact that it's a jutsu that comes down with it. And it IS instant just how Itachi/Sasuke instantly have Amaterasu/Tsukuyomi. Sage Mode and throwing/expanding FRS doesn't. It's not considered a fact, it's something that one can argue or interpret in various ways. Do you understand what I'm saying? To summarize, FRS was perfect from the start, Naruto just needed to be strong enough to use it. He found a way through Sage Mode. Once the risk was nullified, it was normal for him to start practicing it and using it in advanced ways, which doesn't means it's all because of Sage Mode but because of Naruto's skill. This is why I speculate that whichever solution Naruto found to disable the risk of injuring himself, he would still found another way to use the FRS, regardless of Sage Mode or not.
But you ARE making rocket science out of your own opinion and thinking that I'd somehow agree with you because of the detailed description. It doesn't work like that because like I said, it's open for various interpretations, you have yours, I have mine. Actually, I'm keeping up way more than you do, but whatever helps you sleep.
"Reason" is relative here. Facts are one thing, but leading it to something else is another. I showed you my reason, you just don't accept it because you think you're right. That's the whole problem here.
I'm willing to see this through to the end. How long can a person keep this up with a straight face.
REASONING: I'll try to be as clear as possible. Kakashi did not gain Kamui in an instant. He may have gained the potential ability to link with the other dimension in an instant, but he did not gain Kamui in an instant. Kamui is a jutsu that is based on that ability. The actual jutsu, Kamui, he had to develop step by step. Right now he can transfer objects of any size, before he could only transfer small objects, and before that he could only transfer small objects quite inefficiently. Extrapolate further backward, and you'll reach a point where Kakashi notices that his eye has access to another dimension, but can't really utilize it as a jutsu quite yet. Hence: he had to develop the jutsu. Back then when he needed a handseal for Kamui and targeted the wrong portion of Deidara, Kakashi had a flawed and incomplete jutsu, even IF it was useful.
CONCLUSION: Kakashi did not gain the jutsu he coined Kamui in an instant. He had to develop a jutsu based on the ability that the eye offered.
ANALOGY: Similarly, ANYONE's body holds the ability/potential to do a bunshin no jutsu. However, bunshin no jutsu is NOT instant. No one can pull it off instantly simply by having a body. There's more to it than that. You have to practice bunshin no jutsu WITH that body, in order to be able to finally pull off: bunshin no jutsu.
By this I have proven that your straw man of me saying that FRS was an instant benefit, is, besides being a straw man, stupid. No one claimed that FRS is instantly fixed by sage mode. What was claimed, by me and others, is that FRS owes its completion (in that it can be thrown, thereby reducing risk of injury) to sage mode. At this point you're ready to admit that you set up a straw man, which was both dishonest and stupid.
Final conclusion: You do not understand the difference between a jutsu and a potential ability. Sage mode offers the ability/potential to fix FRS, by offering the potential to turn FRS into a jutsu that can be thrown. This is not instant, because one has to practice, but its development is dependant ON sage mode, or any other mode offering similar benefits. QED
Now. FRS was perfect from the start? Let's see how that holds up.
Naruto's initial FRS dissipated randomly before hitting Kakuzu. Did you notice? The property "perfect" does not correlate well with the property of "potential random dissipation". These are inconsistent when attributed to the same jutsu, and either of these has to go. Because the jutsu did in FACT randomly dissipate, the property of "being pefect" has to go. By now, the jutsu already isn't perfect, but I'm not finished.
Second. Because it can't be thrown, and yet it's called after a shuriken (which as you might know, is something that is thrown), the user has to get within punching range with a giant obvious ball of chakra. Not very stealthy, not very sneaky. You can be sure to expect a serious counterattack. What happened in reality? Yamato had to save Naruto's life.
Third. Because it can't be thrown, the arm is always near the explosion, it damages the nerves.
CONCLUSION: Pre sage mode FRS is not to be considered perfect.
Quote the parts that you don't agree with, and show us why they are incorrect. You are a master of rhetoric, but not of argumentation. These are polar opposites. I want to see you get into the fray and argue against points head on, not weasel out by shouting general statements from a distance.
Last edited by Xrayz0r; January 25, 2014 at 08:48 AM.
You're starting to become hilarious. You're repeating yourself with the same sentences only with different words. It's not hard to keep up a straight face that way.
It's funny how you're saying that I don't understand the concept of this debate but ironically, you're the one who doesn't get it because you like too much what you're writing that you're repeating yourself. You can't seem to grasp the concept of vagueness of giving the benefit to certain aspects when there a clear fact isn't present about it. I guess I'll have ti simplify, again, what my reasoning is. Your example with Kakashi is, again, ridiculous because you can't compare the two instances in this argument, but you're doing it again anyway because you yourself don't understand what the hell you're talking about. Gaining Mangekyou Sharingan means gaining Kamui, no matter on what level it's mastered. Therefore it technically holds no ground in the discussion in which FRS isn't dependable on the Sage Mode. Did you get that? Did you? I'll simplify again - Kamui doesn't work without MS, but FRS does work without Sage Mode regardless of the risk injury. So, since FRS doesn't require Sage Mode to be used, it doesn't have anything to do with it. It's a jutsu that was developed on its own. It obviously requires a strong body which Naruto needed to gain in order to not damage himself. Being something left for interpretation, what you don't understand, is exactly the concept of two simultaneous opinions we're having. Because FRS isn't dependable on Sage Mode, it doesn't mean that throwing and expansion of it is a benefit of Sage Mode. It could mean that when Naruto entered the Sage Mode, found out that he doesn't injure himself anymore, he proceeded on with practicing other usages with it, regardless of Sage Mode having anything to do with it other than Naruto's own skill. Did you get it now? I sure fucking hope so.
Really? What the hell was I saying in my posts? Sage Mode isn't necessarily the reason and the factor of Naruto's ability to throw it and expand it. It can be but it also doesn't have to be because, again, Sage Mode isn't a requirement for the FRS. If it was, he wouldn't be so proficient with the usage of FRS in Rikudou Mode.Quote:
That's your reasoning. Do you understand that? Creating a perfect jutsu and perfecting the usage of it are two entirely different things. When Naruto hit Kakuzu, it was a perfect hit and he practically killed him, regardless of doing the damage to himself because the body wasn't ready for it.
I'm not trying to prove you incorrect, I'm just stating my opinion. I gave you perfect arguments but your ability to comprehend them is not on the same level as them, which, again, brings you to practically quote yourself in another new post with the same meaning. If you still didn't grasp this, don't continue, this is getting boring.
He did not succeed entirely in executing the FRS. First time he used it against Kakuzu, it fell apart, and Naruto was in danger as result. It is not a fact that he was entirely successful in creating FRS because it wasn't a stable jutsu and required instant hit, which if Naruto did connect would injure his arm and likely render him unable to fight. Like rasengan and chidori before Kakashi got the Sharingan, FRS was incomplete.
No he would not have. There's no other way to throw the FRS, keep it stable, or make it bigger. Naruto could do that with rasengan because he was still connected to the chakra and controlling it, and he had a clone to help him keep it stable. I only remember FRS being thrown once or twice in Kyuubi chakra mode, but one was miniature. It was easy for Naruto to use FRS because the KYuubi's chakra helped Naruto make the jutsu and keep it stable. FRS in Sage Mode is complete because Naruto was able to keep it stable and expand on its capabilities that he couldn't have done otherwise.
Nope. Works like a needle, doesn't shred. SM FRS shreds, but normal FRS does not. Naruto received the same kind of damage to his arm, if not less severe.
No, the FRS as a technique was successful but his usage of it wasn't. It would be an enormous accomplishment if he both perfected the jutsu and perfectly executed it in such a short amount of time.
You contradicted your own argument with Kurama's chakra mode. It allows the same benefits as Sage Mode which is why I'm persistent with my point of view. FRS is a perfect jutsu because it can be executed without Sage Mode or Kyuubi's chakra mode regardless of the risk injury, for the tenth time. It's not the jutsu's fault because a body isn't ready for the level of its power. Plain and simple.
It's the same thing. FRS and FRS in SM is the same. Oodama FRS can be attributed to SM. I don't think we need to elaborate our opinions any further because they differ at a large scale.
FRS isn't a perfect jutsu because it's either unstable or can't be held long in normal mode. Naruto had to come up with a dangerous plan to make sure he hit Kakuzu before the FRS dissipated.
I love the loss of the Kyuubi. Provided it's real. I don't want to get my hopes to far up only to have them crushed with he gets the other half of the Kyuubi or some other craziness; which does not seem at all unlikely to me.
In my mind, this would be a huge case of it's addition by subtraction. There are no consequences I will not welcome with open arms along with this. The more I think about it the more I like it.
He could lose the ability spam FRS? I'm putting this in the good things category.
He could die? Somebody will rub some Dragonballs together and he'll be back in no time.
His power will just get replaced with something else? As long as that something is ninjutsu-like, I'm calling that a win. I don't want him to suddenly sprout a sharingan or anything like that but if it's that's the tradeoff...so be it.
I couldn't be happier.
Naruto makes FRS. Tries to hit Kakuzu. Comes so close but fails to hit because FRS falls apart. Naruto gets in trouble and is bailed out by Kakashi and Yamato. Has to find another way to connect FRS so that Kakuzu can't react to it.
It was never perfect or completed until Sage Mode because FRS was too dangerous. Naruto had to hit FRS before it dissipated, find a way to hit it so that his opponent couldn't dodge an obvious attack, and when he did hit, he got caught up in the attack.
Minato made Rasengan, Naruto expanded on it and made Rasenshuriken. 2 techniques exist although one is incomplete. Even though it was intended to be more and has been expanded on, I would called them 2 different versions as opposed to a complete and incomplete technique, Very debatable...
Last edited by Bradhimself; January 31, 2014 at 07:42 PM.