And no Kenpachi has never shown a shunpo at all, so its not known if he even has it, but considering its a basic shinigami art that most are probably taught at the Shino academy I doubt someone like Kenpachi who has no formal training in the Shinigami arts other than Kendo has learned it.
Are you sure you don't just want him to be as strong as possible for the sake of these arena threads? If he had all the power ups he could gain (shikai and bankai and full control over his sealed potential), then his fights wouldn't necessarily still go the way they usually do because as you said, he wants to grow stronger for a reason... why would he want to grow stronger, just so he could hold that power back the way he used to?Originally Posted by BaddAzzKenpachi74
http://www.mangareader.net/94-563-14...apter-109.htmlOriginally Posted by Razh
You're considering that fast?
Compared to whom? The reason Kenpachi is often said to be blitzed by the faster captain class opponents in the arena threads is because his fastest feats of speed were back during the SS arc and against barely captain class opponents (Ichigo couldn't even shunpo at that point I don't think). People keep thinking that his showing against Tousen and Komamura is proof that he has captain class speed, but speed didn't help him in those fights. Reaction time did. He remained immobile throughout the entirety of the battles, tanking blows in order to counter attack afterwards. That is the WRONG way to fight someone like Grimjoww, Byakuya, Soi Fon, or Ichigo.
Then there's this canon instance in the manga:
There's no way of telling who was closer to Ichigo when this happened, but the fact of the matter is they both ran after Yammi and Byakuya arrived so much earlier that he had time to cast a Hadou which staggered him. Byakuya admits to arriving first as well. Now, if Byakuya, is this much faster than in a sheer foot race, then what would Soi Fon do in a foot race? Or Bankai Ichigo, who blitzed Byakuya outright? Or Pantera Grimjoww? Now take away the foot race aspect and put them in an honest to goodness fight to the death and Kenpachi gets blitzed by either of these foes... and all of the ones actually faster than the ones in this list.
Though I was trying to avoid turning this into a match. This argument should be in a versus thread.
Last edited by ninjabot; January 13, 2014 at 09:41 PM.
Compared to whom indeed. Since, as you may have noticed, I was never comparing Kenpachi to anyone, even though this thread is about comparing him and Byakuya. He's fast enough to appear behind his opponent instantaneously, or to block Tesla's attack in the last second when he was going to punch Ichigo on the ground.
Just stating cold facts. Does he get hurt a lot because he's slow, or the fault likes in his slacky way of fighting in which he's purposely handicaping himself in order for fight to last longer? It's debatable at the least.
Back to the topic at hand, I've never really thought about the Kenpachi / Byakuya dynamic, even though the two captains have seen plenty of screen time together. Well, as much as you can when you're dealing with a manga like Bleach, which has tons and tons of characters that aren't really too developed besides one or two personalities traits. But yeah, they do seem like two characters who play off of each other very well, and among the captains of Soul Society, they're probably the ones who've had the most interactions with Ichigo (barring Aizen and those who ceased to be captains before the start of Bleach, like Urahara).
The Noble / Savage dynamic does seem like where all the contrasts begin, to be sure. As stated in the first post, Byakuya is really high nobility, whereas Kenpachi amounts to street trash. Byakuya has proper learning, an actual last name, family, etc. Kenpachi got his creds the old-fashioned way, just took the name of the place he was born, and his only family is Yachiru, who he just sorta... picked up somewhere. A bunch of contrasts that are apparent.
There's probably more that could be said but I'm looking at this thing I'm written and wondering why I put so much effort in a manga where the third best character is about to get killed by Renji of all fucking people.
On a last note, I do wonder how Kenpachi vs Tsukishima would have played out. Byakuya doesn't think it would have gone in Kenpachi's favor, stating...
"Zaraki Kenpachi is even less suited. His only wish is the thrill of battle. Since your ability allows you to win with one strike, it is unfavorable for him to face you."
But as we've seen in Byakuya's own fight against Tsukishima, that's not true at all. Byakuya had his sword and himself cut, but he still killed Tsukishima in the end by coming up with a brand new technique on the spot. And furthermore, he does (or claim to) feel Kenpachi's thrill for battle during his fight with Tsukishima, though.
"Battle is something to prepare for, and to wage at peak condition, or so I thought. However, today, for the first time, I have experience the joy of standing knee-deep in the fleeting moments of insanity during battle. Thank you. I have enjoyed this battle." (chapter 472)
That's the kind of shit Kenpachi specializes in. A big part of him is that he doesn't have a strict fighting style, since nobody taught him properly (one day lesson with Old Man Genocide aside, heh that rhymes). Could Tsukishima insert himself into Kenpachi's past and become someone that Kenpachi wouldn't ever hurt? Who even qualifies for that? The way I see it, Kenpachi is so battle crazed that he'll even battle his allies. Hell, after the end of the Soul Society arc, dude was raring to fight against Ichigo despite the two not being enemies anymore. Even if Tsukishima somehow became someone that Kenpachi was so indebted to, I don't think his Memory Insert could overtake Kenpachi's lust for battle, just like it failed to overcome Byakuya's gratitude towards Ichigo.
Finally, what's also hilariously ironic is that Byakuya vs Tsukishima happens roughly around the same time Kenpachi had his "Fucking boring" utter wipeout of Muscled Mustache Butler (not to be confused with Muscled Mustache Wrestler, the third best character in Bleach).
I could ask you the same thing about Byakuya.
But I merely gave my opinion on why it would not be so out of character for him to achieve shikai and bankai.
As I pointed out this has been forshadowed since the Ichigo fight and him wanting to learn the name of his sword, it was only matter of time in my opinion.
He could still go wild and crazy with a shikai and bankai, especially if both match his fighting style which I think they will.
Could you though?Originally Posted by BadAzzKenpachi74
I stated in an earlier post in this very thread that I don't want his power to be too great because it would ruin the type of character Byakuya's supposed to be. If he could beast through his foes effortlessly then he wouldn't need to rely on cunning or speed or his versatile bankai. His fights would be boring as all hell.
As for shikai and bankai matching his fighting style, let's not get ahead of ourselves. Almost every bankai we've seen has altered the fighting style of the wielder. Soi Fon goes from speedy ninja to immobile one-shot nuke silo. Byakuya goes from speedy close range fighter to speedy long range fighter. Ikakku goes from battle loving spearman to battle loving spearman who's spear has to warm up before he can reach his full strength... and also loses it's defensive power along the way. Ichigo goes from average speed to super speed. Mayuri goes from a pointy sword that paralyzes you to a giant baby that eats you. Komamura goes from giant sword to... giant. Who shares injuries with himself.
I think the only bankai that does the exact same thing as it's shikai is Hyourinmaru. And all of the other listed ability changes make for changes in combat strategy. Different fighting styles.
To be fair, plot induced stupidity was used to prevent Tsukishima from simply rewriting Byakuya's past into one where he was Byakuya's best friend, or the true captain commander, or the true head of the Kuchiki clan. Instead all he used it for was to learn the secrets of his fighting style. That's why he was only able to win by doing something that was completely outside of his fighting style. Could Kenpachi be expected to realize this and do the same? With the aid of plot, sure, because that's what it took to let Byakuya win the fight too, lol.Originally Posted by ChaoticKen
Still, that kinda doesn't mean anything. Being fast enough to appear behind his opponent? It matters who the opponent is. Simply showing that he did it without acknowledging why he was capable of doing it leaves FAR too much room to misinterpret what actually happens. Case in point? Yammi is a slow giant, but he managed to punch Kenpachi into a mountain because he wasn't paying attention to him. I could totally leave the part out about Kenpachi not paying attention and simply say "Yammi was fast enough to take Kenpachi off guard and knock him away." It's only half of what happens. It leaves room for fudging with facts. It's not right.Originally Posted by Razh
He gets hurt a lot because he allows his opponents to hit him, because he enjoys the thrill of battle, which includes the pain and blood. Does that in any way guarantee that if he DID want to fight seriously that his speed would somehow become more remarkable than it has been shown to be? Of course not. It is debatable, but only barely, thanks to the lackluster speed feats Kenpachi has shown.Quote:
Though admittedly, what I posted was mostly in response to BadAzzKenpachi74, in order to clear up the "Kenpachi gets speed blitzed" thing. It's not that we're saying he's slow. We're saying he's average. Which automatically makes him severely disadvantaged against characters shown to have supremely above average speed (Byakuya, Ichigo, Soi Fon, Grimmjow). It IS debatable how fast Kenpachi is. It is NOT debatable as to whether these characters are significantly faster than he. Not by a long shot.
Talking about speed, the highest tier includes Ichigo, Stark, Ulq and 1 RG so far, the other are snails more or less.
^Compared to the fastest, sure. But doesn't that just go to prove my point even further? If the characters you listed make the characters I listed look like snails, what does that make Kenpachi look like?
Also, you forget to add Yoruichi and Soi Fon to your list.
Speed only matters if you have the power to kill your opponent with the blows that they can't react to. Given Zaraki's massive power boost, no one who is fast enough that he himself can't land a blow on has the power to hurt him (outside of MAYBE Ichigo).
Kenpachi could very well come out being the strongest full blooded Shinigami in existence now that Yama is dead. His rivalry with Byakuya is now pointless to talk about given the fact that he was always making himself weaker than he actually was.
So, the question is just how strong will kenpachi be now that he knows the name of the zanpakuto and presumably shikai abilities? I would put him above byakuya at this point but byakuya is also getting the renji upgrade in the royal realm so who knows. Safe bet is they will both come out incredibly stronger than before and still somewhat tied with each other to keep the rivalry going.
What I find interesting about both Kenpachi and Byakuya is that Kubo has kept them relevant throughout the entire manga series, plus, they both played an important part in Ichigo's development as far as skill and power go. Renji for example, was the first shinigami Ichigo ever fought and Kubo, poetically gave him a proper role and upgrade in this final arc.
I think, will definitely see improvements Kenpachi and Byakuya. They are a yin and yang to themselves and their rivalry stems from simple competition amongst Captains. And it was cool, that these two killed off Yammy's punk a**.
Rather, I think Byakuya's kido will become that much more powerful, and thus that might put him near Kenpachi. But I still believe Kenpachi will be like Yama in terms of his distance in raw power from everyone else. Byakuya's increase in power will just allow his already high level skills to be that much more effective.
And power only matters against foes you're quick enough to hit or counter. It doesn't matter now thanks to the huge power increase, but back during the SS arc there was a massive list of people Kenpachi didn't stand a chance against (the most glaring and stupidly obvious, at the very top of said list, being Byakuya).Originally Posted by Delbi
Reiatsu amount doesn't have a lot to do with one's speed when you consider that there are speed increasing techniques out there that are needed to push one beyond their regular movement speed, and that Kenpachi doesn't have a variation of any of these. Leroux was so fast Kenpachi would've never touched him, and the gap in power between the two of them is HUGE in Kenpachi's favor, making reiatsu moot. And the Quincy all have Hienrenkyaku, which is like their form of Shunpo.Quote:
...that's not gonna happen anymore than Byakuya showing up and becoming the strongest shinigami in history. Kenpachi, just like Byakuya, isn't an important enough character to be that powerful. It'd be like Shikamaru instantly becoming strong enough to go toe-to-toe with Madara. Not likely, due to the lack of importance of said character to the story. It's entirely unlikely that Ichigo's gonna end the manga as not the strongest character.Quote:
It's also important to remember that even though Kenpachi was suppressing himself since childhood, every time his eyepatch came off he was dipping into that reservoir of power, although not completely. It is as of yet not confirmed how much of a power increase could come from him using all of the power he was holding back, or even if he is capable of using all of it.
Lol wow really?
You think most of the Vice Captains could have taken him back then?
Dear lord, did you watch the battle he had against Koma and Tousen?
That alone proves that most of the VCs would get pwned by him since at the time only 3 actually had a bankai and would have had to rely on shikai to beat him.
Considering he pwned 2 captains at the same time (with his eyepatch on) who where both using Shikai of their own you would pretty much have to be saying that most of the VCs in SS could take them as well.
If you don't like Kenpachi than thats fine, but don't go shitting on his power to such a large degree to say that most VCs could take him.
One thing this series has reiterated on numerous occasions is that the power difference between Captains and Lieutenants is pretty big.
Ichigo pretty much could not do shit to Kenpachi after he had just finished beating Renji not to long ago.
It was not until he got Zangetsu to lend ALL of its power to him that he was able to BARELY manage a draw pretty much.
Last edited by BaddAzzKenpachi74; February 02, 2014 at 01:10 PM.