The shichibukai don't exist for smaller pirates, they exist to increase the power of the Marines to stand against the Yonkou. I doubt they'd quit when they get benefits from being with them. The Whitebeard crew alone took on the Marines and were mostly evenly matched until Luffy's party came and increased the Whitebeard crew's fighting power. I think the war is an example of why the shichibukai exist - because of the Yonkou.
Plus, look at what Blackbeard and Law were able to achieve as shichibukai. Given that he saved Luffy, Law should have been hunted and have a bounty on his head, but he was safe as shichibukai until the Marines saw that he and Luffy allied with each other.
Yonko - strongest PIRATES
Shichi - just below them???? I doubt it, most of the Shichi have some sort of political or personal deal with the government so I just don't see it purely power wise.
Rookies - so these are third in power?
Yonko beat Shichi ->Shichi beat Rookies, I just want to think the Yonko are stronger since they are THE STRONGEST PIRATES, and I want there to be a group of pirates below them.
So yeah going of how Oda set this up Shichi - primary antagonists of Paradise, along with the marines and CP9, though the marines continue into the NW, and Yonko primary antagonists of the NW. We did not see Yonko in Paradise, but we might see Shichi in NW, come to think of it, I do think only Mihawk is left after the defeat of Dofla ... though I do see Kuma coming into play with Vegapunk
I seriously doubt Buggy, or this NEW 7th Shichi will have an arc of their own.
I think sooner or later an event triggers that just disbands the Shichi, we need to move past them as villains of OP for the WG, and they should all go rouge and add to the chaos. Of course as I said after a few Yonko fall.^^ That way it will not ruin the balance, I do not see the BALANCE being the theme for the rest of OP.
But, Oda did state that the shichibukai were established so they could boost the Marine's power and make them equal to the Yonkou. At the very least, the shichibukai would exist to make the Yonkou weaker when they worked with the Marines, and no Yonkou would want to become weak.
As a group, and with the Marines, they're very likely able to challenge a Yonkou. The Yonkou as a group... chances are very low. Individually, I do think they're significantly weaker than the Yonkou, except for MAYBE Mihawk. Buggy is unknown though; while Buggy himself is nothing to be concerned about, his crew has a lot of powerful former prisoners, which is why Whitebeard allied himself with Buggy during the war.
However, I agree with you that most shichibukai individually would not be able to stand up to a Yonkou. I think Oda mentioned the Marines and all the shichibukai combined.
Shichibukai can still be antagonists in the New World, with their own unique power that would severely challenge the Straw Hats in different ways than fighting Yonkou or the Marines. Doflamingo isn't a shichibukai yet he has his own arc, so yeah.Quote:
I don't think we'll see the shichibukai be disbanded yet, given the government or the Marine appoints the shichibukai. They can fire any shichibukai or hire any shichibukai as they see fit.
well... i guess...kudos to the threadopener?
What would Mihawk do if there was no Marine safety? Become a Pirate again? He doesn't really seem like a pirate. Just do the same as he always did? Probably stay live as a (incredible strong) hermit... And the Amazon Lily Islands would then lose their Government protection.
Really, all the others have used it just to get their own way (Moriah, Sir Crocodile, Law, Blackbeard, et al.), but the others will be affected as well. Will Fujitora get his way? I actually think that he will, but that it won't really be that big a deal for those involved that don't abuse it.
Well, it doesn't seem like Fujitora thinks it's worth it.
Please keep in mind the 24 hour rule for the chapters, you are free to discuss things about the current chapter in the other threads only after they pass, now have fun discussing.
Last edited by Josef K.; January 23, 2014 at 11:19 AM.
I doubt it, given that the admirals don't make decisions regarding shichibukai. I think they're able to arrest shichibukai though, like how Smoker arrested Crocodile.
He'd probably still do what he's doing, maybe more cautiously. He's quite a mystery though.Quote:
I don't think Fujitora will get his way anytime soon, given how valuable shichibukai are in fights. If not for them, then chances are the war would have gone more in Whitebeard's favor. Mihawk was able to hold Luffy for a bit longer, which could have made all the difference.
Considering the WG and Marines don't have the power to quell all the pirates by themselves I suppose it is worth it. It gives them less "big names" and "threats" to have to worry about. As it's like declaring those pirates as "neutral" threats, rather than "hostile" threats. Plus in many of the cases there are other reasons to benefit the World Government. Take Hancock's or Jimbei's cases. They became Shichibukai on the grounds to protect their people. Or in another sense, their people can be considered hostages to keep those dangerous pirates in check.
Case by case...
Law kind of has served his purpose as a Shichibukai, he delivered many pirates to the marines did he not? I recalled reading that line around delivering 100 pirates hearts to the marines. Which seems like a reasonably good trade off considering how strong Law already is, a few of the pirates whose hearts he captured could have been over 100 million bounties much like his bounty originally was. Newer pirates who may have been considered as dangerous as Luffy was becoming back around Enies Lobby!
Hawkeyes has been worth it, he almost seems like a retired pirate right now, he already achieved his "best swordsman" ambition and seems to have little interest in anything now, he doesn't seem much of a threat at all unless you attack him THEN he's a threat. Recruiting him as a Shichibukai has given them a powerful ally from time to time.
Kuma's part is just weird. While having his "brutal" reputation he seems more soft hearted, perhaps due to his revolutionary loyalties. Now if he's simply another pacifista robot, he can't really be considered much of a shichibukai can he? In this case you could say he is a "reformed" criminal completely, that now fights only for the Marines (or WG). There may be some other complications behind his story though, like I note with Jimbei and Hancock they may have had leverage on him like a hostage that has put him in the situation he's in.
Moria's ambition was weak, even if he had Luffy's shadow in his zombie army. It couldn't have got far off the ground considering their fatal weakness to salt which a few other pirates already knew (ie Jimbei), while he has in turn stopped many other powerful pirates. If he tried to oppose the Marines he'd just be another pirate who could easily be put in his place.
Jimbei became a reliable asset to the Marines for a while I think, he was kind of forced to join the Marines in order to keep the slaves that were freed safe. Otherwise had he not those slaves (who may not have been exactly eager to live a life of violence) may have suffered, so it was like they had hostages to keep Jimbei in check.
The same applies to Boa Hancock, they could use her people as hostages again in order to keep her in check. Doing this in Jimbei's and Hancock's case gave them 2 strong pirates who could help them clear the sea's of other pirates.
Buggy may be only a Shichibukai out of fear of the escaped convicts he has under his command right now, as even Whitebeard admitted, he didn't want those convicts siding against him when he already had his hands full. Marking them as neutral for now, until as such time the Marines can really just do away with them.
While BB and Crocodile may have just been considered as Shichibukai because of their reputation or achievements they were in hindsight bad choices. But the Marines couldn't have known the kind of ambition either one of them had. In Crocodile's case he may even have appeared to be helping since he must have made quite some money through his casino he owned.
Ace was apparently offered a chance to become a shichibukai, and if he had, he might have been a good one too. Though this might have become a trap by the marines to capture him.
All in all, the best point of having the Shichibukai is for the loot they turn in, and the threats that are kept in check. The Marines aren't strong enough to completely prevent piracy, so having some threats kept in check is better than having more running rampant hurting more of the innocent that the Marines are sworn to protect. Though it seems some have the idea that they can completely do away with the Shichibukai.
Last edited by BetaRuler; January 23, 2014 at 02:36 PM.
Shichibukai worth it, even all the trouble they cause in the cover of governement just think one thing !!! If they were not Shichi they would still have the same ambition but would have done more trouble to do it.
For exemple Croco would not have been a Shichi, he would not have do secret action to take Pluton, I'm sure he would have assemble a vast army of criminal to obliterate and control Alabasta in the seek of Pluton.
He was sneaky to have the time and security to do it, but without the protection of the Governement, sure he would have been more brutal !!!
The World Governement is not dump, they know that Shichi are not working for justice, but they prefer an half controled pirate helping them time to time, than a full agressive (and powerful) pirate that would waste a part of their force.
All the troubling Shichi like Moria, Crocodile, Black Beard or Doflamingo have their ambition, without the Shichibukai position they would have find a way to go achieve it.
The question is, is it better to let them trying to fulfill their ambition as full free pirates or have a deal with them as Shichibukai and force them to do it in a sneaky way ?
I think as it take them time and energy to hide their action, with the risk to be discover and being hunt by admirals, other schichibukai or pirates who want to get thieir position, it's the way better for the WG to deal with those troublesome pirates who would be hard to defeat.
I'm not sure that most of the vice-admiral could beat Moria or Crocodile.
Ahh, it seems I started the thread at just the right time lol.
Anyways, the point I am trying to make to a great extent is that these guys would not have been able to cause as much trouble as they did had they not been shichibukai. Of the shichibukai we have seen 4 have taken advantage of being criminals with a permit to do as they please. Crocodile used his power and influence to essentially turn alabasta upside down. The case can be made that moria used his title to kidnap shadows (not just from pirates, civilians and marines too) without getting attention to himself and build an army, BB used his title to release everyone from level 6 and add the most dangerous ones to his crew, doflamingo used his title to become king, destroy a nation and become a massive force in the underworld. My point is exactly that what they have done is actually way more than they would have been able to do as regular pirates rampaging across the grand line to their hearts content. Thanks to their titles they have been able to act beneath the government's radar and have been able to pull off improbable and immensely complicated plans. In what universe would crocodile have done something worst than what he did if the marines had been on his back? BB wouldn't have made it to ID without his title, the title is what allowed him a crew that could compete with that of other yonko. Its not like its just 1 shichibukai who has gone out of the norm or anything. The manga has presented the following shichibukai:
Out of them crocodile, moria, blackbeard and doflamingo have abused their title to the point where they have had their own arcs dedicated to them.
Law and hancock are not as bad but they have their issues. Hancock only answered the call because luffy needed to get to ID. Actually thats another one, without hancock's influence luffy would have never gotten to ID at all. Yet another world changing event that happened just because the shichibukai do as they please. Jinbe has not abused his title in such a manner but when the time came he did not answer the call to marineford, renounced his title and fought against the marines. Kuma was the one who saved the strawhats at sanbody and to boot he protected the sunny for 2 years. Even in death he managed to go up against the marines when it was convenient to him.
The only shichibukai that apparently have not abused their title yet are buggy and mihawk. Even then, mihawk spent 2 years training zoro and being mihawk's apprentice meant zoro could walk up to a marine, pee on him and the marine in question has to say "thank you". Just as luffy would have been off the hook in fujitora's eyes had law said luffy was his subordinate rather than his ally.
Without the shichibukai title the following things would ultimately have been dramatically different:
Crocodile would not have taken over alabasta. The marines would have been up his ass regardless of how much he pretended to help the people.
Moria would not have been able to take shadows from innocent civilians and marines, he would have had quite a bit of attention drawn to him.
BB would have never made it anywhere near ID.
Doflamingo would have never made it to king which means no broker of the underworld (at least as he is now)
Luffy would have never made it to ID because hancock would not have been able to take him there.
The bits with kuma saving the strawhats would have played out different at least.
Every major development the manga has ever seen revolves one way or another about a shichibukai going rogue and starting a shitstorm. The current arc, which will without a shred of a doubt shake, if not destroy, the foundation of the world involves 2 shichibukai going rogue, abusing their titles and clashing. The fall of doflamingo and his underground empire will without a doubt be the single most ground shattering event since WB died, the amount of people he sells stuff to and money he moves is far too important. I doubt doflamingo will remain a shichibukai after the events and law has already rescinded his title so on top of every client joker has being screwed over once he falls there is the issue of at least 2 shichibukai positions opening up. The manga has implied loosing even 1 shichibukai is a huge issue, right now we are talking 2.
A shichibukai abusing his title is not an exception, its the norm. The fact that these remorseless sociopaths even find a way to abuse a title that forgives past crimes and allows them to commit crimes with impunity should be indication enough of how absurd the whole thing is. Seriously, the manga literally spins around how these guys consistently use their impunity to obtain asinine amounts of power.
I guess there is a chance that things would ultimately be worst if there weren't shichibukai however considering everything it does seem unlikely. To put things in context though, after the war we saw the retirement of garp and sengoku and aokiji quite the marines. 3 important people just left, 3 people presumably as strong or stronger than individual shichibukai. The hole is massive and yet akainu was able to build the marines into an even greater force. The shichibukai are like a drug for the WG. They need them to remain somewhat stable but their very actions keep making stuff more unstable. So as things are more unstable they need the shichibukai even more. I am with fujitora on this one, the WG needs to get rid of these guys.
Last edited by kkck; January 24, 2014 at 10:09 AM.
There are some Real Life examples that I've been avoiding to use... (as benefits for the Shichibukai's existence)
IMO, abolishing the Shichibukai system only makes sense if the WG organizations (namely Marines and Cipher Pol) are suddenly powerful enough to overthrow all opposing forces: Yonko and Supernovas...
The Shichibukai are useful as powerful pirates that actually answer to the WG (by doing some dirt work, being a permanent menace to other pirates, and not attacking the Marines - even if Hancock never respects this last part) but, as I see it, they don't actually balance the power against the Yonko by their own: The 4 Yonkos balance themselves out, while the Shichibukai's existence works only a menace - as in, if some Yonko try to join forces and attack the Marines, then the Marines + Shichibukai could hold said Yonkos; said power balance only keeps everyone from attacking everyone else.
Law's idea was, at least at first, to defeat one of the Yonko (and mess with Mingo in the process), throwing the powers off-balance; Kidd had the same idea. By doing that, I imagine that even Law and Kidd don't have idea of the consequences, and only want to cause chaos by the fall of the status quo, or a rupture moment that could permit change or the rise of new powerful entities...
Well, everything goes outta the window if the Marines are now powerful enough to pose a threat to the Yonko without need for the Shichibukai, and that is what concerns me the most: the Marines (or another / new WG threat) getting an upgrade in power, and trying to balance everything out with the Yonkos or even worse, trying to defeat the Yonkos to finally put the entire World under "absolute justice" (no more island protection by the hands of Yonko, everyone getting "protection" by the hands of the WG).
... So, I can only imagine the Shichibukai being discarded as an organization if the WG / (or Marines / CPol) are suddenly strong enough to hold / defeat the Yonko.
I get what you kind of saying with all this, but the real, real reason that the World Government even decided on factoring a Royal Shichikubai, is because the entirety of the Pirate World is much grander than their own, organized system. When, Gol. D Roger turned himself over for execution, this gave the World Government a somewhat advantage, because the Pirate World was changed after that. There was no Pirate King, so you had the 4 Yonkou and the WG's answer to that was the Shichikubai.
Now with the new age of Pirates coming through and causing all types of problems for both sides, your going to have an interesting development in the New Age of Pirates.
The Shichibukai faction does help the World Government expand its control over pirates to a certain extent, through the fear the Shichibukai embody and through the [limited] duty they bind the former pirates to. Plus it helps that potential enemies are now temporarily borderline allies of sorts with the World Government thanks to the Shichibukai system - rather than today's enemy, they could be seen more as tomorrow's enemy. For those reasons, the Shichibukai do serve a benefit to the World Government, but ultimately within the One Piece story they also serve a detrimental role to the World Government which the World Government is not even be aware of.
The Shichibukai have effectively enabled the Strawhats to get opportunities to test their strength against strong opponents throughout their journey as well as gain allies through the conflicts/meetings they have with the Shichibukai:
>>Thanks to Crocodile, the Strawhats were able to befriend Elbaf Giants (Dorry and Brogy), Vivi and the Alabasta Kingdom, and of course catch the attention of Nico Robin who subsequently joined the crew as a member;
>>Thanks to Moriah, the Strawhats were able to befriend Lola (and whoever her mother is), recruit Brook as a member of their crew, and Zoro was able to get his hands on the legendary O Wazamono grade sword, Shusui, which will effectively become a relevant item of interest in the Wano Kuni Arc, if we have one;
>>Thanks to Doflamingo and his Human Auctioning House, the Strawhats were able to meet Rayleigh, Kid and Law. And this Dressrosa Arc, the Strawhats are amassing a Pirate Alliance thanks to Luffy in the Corrida Colosseum (Chinjao, Bartolomeo, Sabo, Rebecca), Sanji and his interactions with Viola, and Usopp's Usolander epicness (the Dwarves). The Mera Mera no Mi will also likely go to one of Luffy's nakama/allies;
>>Thanks to Mihawk, Zoro was able to strengthen his resolve after his defeat, and evolve his combat abilities after training with Mihawk for two years;
>>Thanks to Kuma, the Strawhats were saved from complete annihilation in their battle against Kizaru. The Thousand Sunny was also protected thanks to Kuma;
>>Jinbe, because he was a Shichibukai, Luffy was able to meet him in Impel Down and shortly after have his live saved by Jinbe during the Marineford War. Jinbe saved Luffy again when he was overcome with despair and trauma. Jinbe saved Luffy a third time when Luffy needed blood at the end of the Fishman Island Arc. Jinbe also helped Luffy return to Marineford to ring the Ox Bell and send a message to the rest of the Strawhats. Jinbe may as well as be a Strawhat now;
>>Hancock, through and through she will always be Luffy's ally (she wants to be more though), even if it means forsaking herself and putting her nation, Amazon Lily, in danger, she will help (and love) Luffy unconditionally. Luffy was able to get into Impel Down thanks to Hancock. She is also potentially the future wife of the next Pirate King... (Sorry I couldn't help myself =P);
>>Buggy, he hates Luffy, but he always ends up helping and sometimes saving Luffy, so now that Buggy is a Shichibukai, it is reasonable to assume that he will continue to help Luffy in some way even though he has no intention of doing so;
>>Law, in an alliance with Luffy and effectively is the head behind the plan to weaken and overthrow Kaido as one of the Yonko. Thanks to Law, the Strawhats were also able to befriend Kin'emon, Momonosuke and get their hands on the much lusted after Caesar Clown;
>>Teach, the only one who I can't say had much benefit to the Strawhats. I suppose the Blackbeard Pirates appearing at Impel Down and the Marineford War added enough chaos to the situation that helped to enable Luffy to escape/survive. And with the Level 6 Impel Down prisoners they released, the World Government can't focus many resources on capturing the Strawhats.
If the Strawhats weren't the main characters of this story, the Shichibukai would be incredibly useful, but ultimately they serve the purpose of enabling the Strawhats to amass enough power to overthrow the Yonko and eventually the World Government. Right now, the Shichibukai are more beneficial to the Strawhats than the World Government. It would be in the World Governments best interest to disband the Shichibukai, but I suppose regardless if they do or don't, the heroes of the story, the Strawhats, will find a way around the problems they face.
I am interested to see what will happen if the Shichibukai faction is removed, would a new third power come to fill that void? Or will the Marines extend themselves to make up for the role the Shichibukai served?
I am of the opinion that even with the Shichibukai gone, a third power would naturally come to fill that void, and that power would be the Strawhat Pirate Alliance. As things are, the Strawhats in a sense act as a balance between both the Marines and Pirates. The Strawhats haven't directly gone against the Yonko as of yet, but through their prevention of bad things occurring across the arcs in One Piece (ironically with the defeat of the Shichibukai), they are effectively "protecting" the people, which is what the Marines embody, well should embody. The Strawhats have gone against the Marines as well, being directly responsible for the destruction of Enies Lobby, the break-out of Impel Down (through Luffy), and having a hand in the destruction of Marineford (through Luffy). The Strawhats would make a better third power than the Shichibukai as they would be more benefit to the [innocent] person and serve to trim the number pirates on the seas.
The Strawhats take the balance even further and bring the World Government into the mix through their declaration of war against them during the Enies Lobby Arc, their complete victory over Cipher Pol 9 and of course through the beating Luffy gave the Tenryuubito - Saint Charloss. With Doflamingo's inevitable defeat at Luffy's hand, the Strawhats will have further threatened the rule of the World Government and the Tenryuubito - besides Fisher Tiger, no one else has gone against the Tenryuubito, not even Gol D Roger. Luffy is currently the only person alive to have directly harmed a Tenryuubito.
With the likes of Jinbe, Law, Zoro, Sanji, Luffy, Robin, Hancock, Sabo, Koala, Bartolomeo, the Chinjao Family, Kin'emon, possibly Caesar, and other named characters, the Strawhats have quite a notable force at hand if and when the Shichibukai title is abolished. The Strawhats will also likely get the backing of the Sakura Kingdom, the Alabasta Kingdom, Fishman Island, the Riku Family (plus the Tontatta tribe) and possibly Mihawk who might indirectly aid the Strawhats as he is interested in Luffy and is expecting Zoro to become a swordsman strong enough to challenge him one day. The Revolutionary Army may provide some support for the Strawhats, but even if they don't, Sabo and Koala definitely will. The Strawhats and their Pirate Alliance really have the potential to become a notable force within the New World, especially if they gain the support of Wano Kuni.
Alternatively, a third force may come into power after this year’s Reverie, through some Allied Kingdom Force - the answer Kingdoms could arrive at after seeing the increase in piracy over the last two years. The Shichibukai may very well be abolished after this year’s Reverie with the Sakura Kingdom, the Alabasta Kingdom and Dressrosa all being negatively affected by the Shichibukai pirates (Blackbeard on Drum Island, Crocodile in the Alabasta Kingdom, and Doflamingo in Dressrosa). There may also be nations/Kingdoms negatively affected by the escape of the level 6 Impel Down prisoners which Blackbeard, a former Shichibukai, and Buggy, an active Shichibukai, were responsible for. I really will be surprised if the Shichibukai faction doesn't come under threat in this year’s Reverie. The Shichibukai are currently doing more harm to the World Government, the "justice" they represent, and Kingdoms around the world than actual benefit. I'm sure if Akainu read the manga One Piece, he'd get rid of the Shichibukai the same day....
Last edited by Syphin; January 25, 2014 at 07:17 AM.
The comparison isn't "Shichibukai exist vs. they don't;" it's "Shichibukai have some slight fealty towards the government vs. they have hostility towards it." Do they drive the government nuts? Yes. Would it be worse if they were just some additional, super-powerful, pirates? Probably.