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think what the back story for Bach said he is essentialy a loan shark of powers he gives a little you make it your own develop a signature skill set and when they die all the power bach gave plus thier own power goes to bach and ichigo will likely go 1on 1 in in true shounen style so ichigo will have the power to be able to beat all quencies.
summary bach gets all quency powers ichigo has to beat him 1on 1 soooooo am i missing something
Ichigo becoming a God would fit well with the entire of the series from an anagram perspective. However, I think, Ichigo could become evil, during this fight with Ywhach and it's interesting to see how far his power has come, due to his Quincy heritage. Especially considering that his mother comes from a bloodline of "pure blood" Quincies. Could this be a "weakness" for Ichigo versus a "strength".
and he still will have that 1 dumb getsuga tenshou move. he's had 3-4 different forms now and yet all he does is a stupid sword slash. everyone else has multiple if not one singular ability that has some oomf imagination wise
Ichigo is a Soul Reaper, Hollow and Quincy. If he brings all of that up to maximum, it won't matter how many epithet powers Yhwach has regained. He's only a Quincy.
Well, as I see it, when we finally see Ichigo fight he should be stronger than how he was against Aizen. He got the same Royal treatment as Renji and Rukia got (considering that even in the begining of the Arc he managed to take down two Sternenritters and that is a damn feat) and this can already make him a monster. At the same time we learnt that before his visit to Nimaya he practically didn't use his real Shinigami powers at all, but used his Quincy powers and Hollow powers in stead. So we can say that just by getting full access to his Shinigami powers and finally learning about his Quincy powers will already make him way stronger and in a combination with Royal treatment it will make even a bigger difference.
And about him becoming a God in the end of the manga... I don't really know, but at least in terms of overall strength... he might become the strongest in the manga.
I doubt ichigo would be stronger than he was against aizen. Right now his strength should be unreal but it should also be different from what he had back then. Back then the idea behind aizen's power was that it was transcendental, simply beyond the realm of what souls could attain. His power extended beyond the very perception of ordinary souls, it was dimensions above. In a battle of reiatsu aizen could not be properly opposed as he would always win provided he did not fool around. Then came along ichigo and he had power beyond aizen's perception, he was in a position where aizen himself could not perceive or fathom ichigo's power. Ichigo has definitely gone through a lot of changes through his royal guard training but I can't imagine him actually being superior to what he was against aizen. He has learned the true nature of his powers as a shinigami/quincy/hollow/human and he was given kirio's food but that only affects his techniques and reiatsu volume... What ichigo got back then was well beyond just volume of reiatsu, it was something which the manga made clear was in direct order of superiority to shinigami reiatsu and aizen's own superior reiatsu. To me what ichigo had against aizen was a sort of ultimate form, what he has now is simply more of normal powers (even if he has all the powers). Now, it is entirely possible that the next time ichigo goes transcendental he becomes something even superior to what he was against aizen. I don't think the amount of rieatsu he attained thanks to the royal training will be that relevant, given the perception thing it is entirely possible the volume of reiatsu needs to be measured in ways beyond the conventional which makes volume in a way which would make sense to normal souls irrelevant, but the fact that ichigo has knowledge regarding his origin and all of his powers can be of extreme importance. Next time he will likely go step beyond than what he did against aizen.
To be honest I don't think there is any reason for ichigo to not be able to access his transcendental powers right now. IMO there is one of two things going on here. Either urahara made a point out of sealing ichigo's godly powers while ichigo was in a comma or ichigo is willingly not using those powers. In this regard the issue is not ichigo becoming a god, the issue is that ichigo already is a god among ants. Its all about him actually wanting to use his godlike powers. He probably does not want to use his godlike powers because he does not want to part with his family and friends. Shunsui probably has some degree of awareness of this which is why he visited his friends a while back.
And now that Ichigo has complete control over Shinigami/Hollow powers, not just fake ones. His power against Aizen was his Shinigami/Hollow power. Tensa Zangetsu is Yhwach, an OMZ said in "Blade is Me" that he wanted to protect Ichigo by supressing his power. Tensa Zangetsu (young Yhwach), said the same thing. IMO it's pretty clear that Aizen was Shinigami+Hollow, but Ichigo was a Quincy (Yhwach merged with...), a Hollow and a Shinigami (Hollow/Shinigami side from White)
Yeah, I'll step into that topic again. Why doesn't Aizen feel Ichigo's reiatsu? Because Ichigo's Bankai works like Vollstandig (but is NOT actual Vollstandig), the power he is using from his Hollow/Shinigami part becomes a fuel for his Quincy side. Thus Ichigo has all powers, Quincy side has a fuel, and Ichigo doesn't waste any energy, he gains boost in every physical ability (just like Vollstandig, minus the absorption of reishi, as he doesn't need it because he absorbs what he exerts).
Changing reiatsu into physical strength sounds familiar...
And FGT is like Letzt Still... Plus Isshin's FGT must have been different, as he clearly had his powers all the time, so his FGT didn't involve losing all his powers I guess. Or he wanted to learn about it but didn't manage to do it. Not to mention the method to regain powers are EXACTLY like Letzt Still's.
And the famous dimension speech. No wonder Ichigo is stronger, he fought Yhwach+Shirosaki and gained all of their power at the same time.
LONG STORY SHORT.
Ichigo WILL achieve his former power-level from Aizen fight. It was his original strength. That he further developed during FB arc (more or less), that he developed during RG training, thus he'll be slightly stronger.
Btw. kkck, what is your definition of "transcendent being" and why do you think, that Ichigo LOST those transcendent powers? The source of his powers is his soul, he still has his powers, no reason to think he had something else.
Aizen- Shinigami+Hollow overcame his limit as a Shinigami, gaining power beyond Shinigami and beyond Hollow's limit. He transcended both. His explanation of reiatsu was that people can feel it if he lowers it. That means the reason they didn't feel it was because of it's magnitude, and NOT its nature. That means he didn't have anything special, just loooots of reiatsu.
Ichigo is Shinigami+Hollow+Quincy, so he was stronger than Aizen, because he "stood in an even higher dimension" because of Quincy power, thus he "transcended" Aizen.
I don't think manga made any point, that "transcendental powers" are something superior to everything or that they are unique for people like Ichigo with all the mix. He got "transcendental" after Yhwach+Shirosaki fight, but it was his own powers, nothing new.
Last edited by Duniak; May 08, 2014 at 09:50 PM.
I have thought about the possibility of ichigo simply fully compressing his reiatsu so that it does not scape, like with kirge's volstandig, but for me it does not really add up on multiple angles. Ichigo might have had a portion of his shinigami powers sealed by old man zangetsu but that does not mean he was altogether not using his shinigami powers. They were limited, not altogether sealed. We also know ishin inherited his techniques from ishin (even if ishin is a fire user and ichigo uses what appears to be cero-like black reiatsu). Getsuga tensho is an innate technique of ishin's and ichigo. Under that logic the final getsuga tensho is also a technique which ichigo got not from his quincy side of the powers but from the shinigami side of the family. Heck, we have every reason to believe ishin is also capable of using FGT simply because there is no other plausible way for him to know about it. Ultimately ichigo's abilities from the past were not quincy techniques in disguise, they were full fledged shinigami abilities limited by old man zangetsu. The evidence is that ichigo AND ishin can do them. If there was any quincy to those techniques then ishin would not be able to perform them as he lacks quincy abilities.
Then there is the consideration that volstandig or lets ztilt are not things which a quincy can learn to do on his own. The forms presumably need to be mastered however they are not innate quincy abilities. Those are forms artificially induced by specific quincy tools. It would be too much of a coincidence IMO that ichigo just happens to have a specific set of shinigami/hollow abilities that allow him to use something like a volstandig. Specially if he is not even aiming for it.
Anyways, there is also a third point here. The most important reason for the whole thing to not be a pseudo volstandig is that it just does not make sense based on what we saw and was said.
In the very link you posted we actually see ichigo in his final getsuga tensho form releasing power, he is actually covered in his own black reiatsu and wearing reiatsu clothes and everything. AIzen is right there wondering what in the holy hell is going on and even after ichigo has released enough power that even aizen is surrounded by it he can't feel it. Ichigo just had reiatsu that was beyond aizen's perception, it was not something aizen could comprehend.
Now the final reason why it does not make sense ichigo had a pseudo volstandig. Lets go back to aizen... What about the fact that others were unable to feel aizen's reiatsu? By the time aizen went into the cocoon we know ishin and co could no longer feel his power. Aizen definitely was not using a pseudo volstandig, we know that for a fact. The proof? Ichigo was able to feel aizen's power. Aizen was releasing power which others could not feel but ichigo could. So aizen' power was beyond the perception of shinigami but not beyond the perception of ichigo.
With ichigo the implication is that his power was simply beyond what aizen, in his own superior state, could perceive. Ichigo and aizen had actual reiatsu which they released to every extent they could but the simple superiority ichigo had in terms of quality and perhaps quantity (aizen used the words dimensions so speaking of volume of reiatsu is weird because if you are measuring reiatsu volume in more than the 3 dimensions we can perceive the topic is kinda absurd and incomprehensible).
I wrote about why I thought ichigo did not have those powers right now. Either sealed by urahara or ichigo has simply not willed himself to go back to being a god among ants.
As far as to what I think they are, my only thought that is transcendental rieatsu is simply reiatsu arbitrarily stronger than those of lesser beings. Simply put each being has his own reiatsu which can do things within certain limits and also his own perception and transcendental reiatsu breaks that scope of what normal reiatsu can do and is beyond the perception of lesser beings. I simply take aizen's words in this case. I doubt he would be lying to himself for the sake of breaking the fourth wall and fooling us....
Now, a bit I don't agree with is that transcendental is just a thing of having hollow/shinigami and ichigo having things added to that. Under that logic arrancar and vizards would already be transcendental. The whole thing goes well beyond hybridization and even aizen made the point that what he was doing was not "mere" hollowification. The shinigami/hollow hybrid we have seen in the form of arrancar and vizards necessarily has all other types of souls. Aizen aimed to go beyond hollowification and considering everything I would think he succeeded.
Quincies can shoot reishi. Ichigo can also do it, channeling it through his sword. I still think GT is just an imitation of Isshin, and IS a result of Yhwach's interference.
FGT? Isshin knew about it, yet he didn't acquire it? Laaame. Again, why is it just like Letzt Still?
They don't have to be innate, Ichigo has looots of power, and he trained a LOT with Yhwach. He mastered it on his own. What was innate was his Quincy power, that he trained with Yhwach.Quote:
Reiatsu is flowing next to Ichigo, unless it reaches Aizen it doesn't matter. Aizen said he doesn't feel his reiatsu, he didn't know the reason, he asked himself a question "Does this man stand in a higher dimension because I can't feel his reiatsu?!". He didn't know the answer. Aizen wondering about that doesn't mean it was true. It means he didn't know. >.<Quote:
Who said Aizen was using Vollstandig? O.o I don't think I've ever made that particular point. Tatsuki felt Aizen's power, she couldn't feel a thing from Ichigo. That's why I wrote it was a matter of magnitude, and not its nature. In Ichigo's case, it was a matter of ability, as NOONE could feel a thing. In Aizen's case, as he himself stated, it was a matter of magnitude. "If I lower it they can feel it".Quote:
Of course he meant volume... what the hell... xD "Dimension above me" meant "stood higher than me", meaning nothing else than "he was stronger than me".Quote:
All that talk about two-dimensional and three-dimensional beings was nothing but an example. And aaaalll Ichigo said was "Does it surprise you I'm stronger?" He said nothing about his reiatsu being impossible for Aizen to feel.
Plot reasons. He'd be too freakin' strong for anyone in the manga, he'd have killed Juha in the first invasion, not letting him get all the powerups he needed. Thus he had to regain it, get it back from a scratch. Too bad "scratch" in his case is godly powers with speed and power above that of a captain. That "scratch" could handle Kirge and Ginjo.Quote:
And I agree with it. Transcendence is a matter of volume, not something different, but you wroteQuote:
As if the volume of his power wasn't coming from his own soul, and not that he lost, he's "normal" and can't attain such heights. But it WAS his power, from HIS soul, that hasn't changed at all. The fact he lost it doesn't mean he can't get it back, he still has his powers. The fact it was beyond perception was only because of the volume, and nothing indicates Ichigo can't get back to that volume.Quote:
Don't you think it'd be sad if we saw Ichigo's bitchstomp mode only once?
Vaizards are also considered failed products, they're balanced with Quincy vaccine. Both Ichigo and Aizen are natural hybrids (if you can call Hogyoku transformations natural). Ichigo could balance himself on his own (he's a human, Quincy, Shinigami and a Hollow in one), Aizen was balanced by Hogyoku. Vaizards were unstable and were failures, then saved. If you do a BBQ, and you leave the meat for too long it'll get burnt, but you can somehow make it edible, if you scratch off carbon/coal/whatchamacallitenglishisnotmynativesorry. In Ichigo's and Aizen's case, they're perfectly made.Quote:
Of couse Aizen didn't undergo "mere Hollowfication". Nothing Hollowish about that regeneration. He Hollowfied after Ichigo arrived. Earlier it was just Hogyoku making him stronger and "protecting its master", but the guy reached his limit and could only become a Hollow to become stronger. I guess even Hogyoku can't change a guy infinitely.
Last edited by Duniak; May 06, 2014 at 05:21 PM.
Well, the dimension bit could be hyperbole however what rules out the possibility is aizen's next sentence. He makes the point about 2 dimensional beings not being able to interfere with 3 dimensional ones. In other words, aizen is being quite literal with that.
What is a god?
I'm not saying he learned it (but I COULD understand if he did during his training), I'm saying he could use it. Sanrei glove? Quincy cross? Shinigami powers as a substitute, FGT-Letzt Still, Bankai- Vollstandig. But I don't think his Bankai WAS Vollstandig. But it was similar, it was the only thing Yhwach could let Ichigo use during suppressing Shirosaki. It was Shirosaki that fueled Ichigo's Bankai, and Shirosaki couldn't go full power, Yhwach was controlling Ichigo's power. So he made an ability he knew about, so Ichigo doesn't use ONLY Shirosaki's power. When he uses too much, Shirosaki goes wild (stated in Grimmjow fight).Quote:
The ONLY implication was "YES FUCK YES ICHIGO IS IN A HIGHER DIMENSION AND IS STRONGER YOU COCKY IDIOT!". But the reason for him not feeling reiatsu? None.
And the last sentence is exactly why I said it was only an imitation of Vollstandig, not an actual technique. The reason Vollstandig needs to absorb everything is because it needs power, a fuel. But if that power is within you and you constantly use it (spiritual pressure depends on how much energy you let out), it can be used as a fuel for Vollstandig. Thus, Ichigo doesn't need to absorb his surroundings, as he absorbs his own Shinigami/Hollow powers that would leak out.
So am I supposed to think Kirge went transcendent?
Nah, my point was nothing like it. Aizen specifically said the reason they couldn't feel him was because it was too much for them, not because his reiatsu was somewhat different.Quote:
Ultrawaves...? You can feel certain frequency, once it goes over the border (20kHz) you don't hear anything.Quote:
You know what 2 dimensions are? It's not 3D that you see. Two-dimensional beings can't interact with this world, as they simply don't exist here, in this four-dimensional universe. Then again, you can't "stand in dimension". So his first sentence is literal, it's a scientific fact, an example. His next sentence means "Can it be he's so much stronger I can't even feel his reiatsu?". The answer? None. We can assume it was because Ichigo's reiatsu was sooooooooooo huge, or because it was ability. Now the logic part.
Aizen was SOOOOO MUCH WEAKER than Ichigo? Ichigo used ALL of his power in ONE-SHOT technique and COULDN'T kill Aizen. Hell, he couldn't even slice the guy in half. Aizen got up, could still regenerate. So Aizen couldn't feel the small percentage leaking out of Ichigo, but could handle Ichigo's WHOLE power in one shot? Not likely...
Of course ichigo could learn volstandig, just like any quincy, but the suggestion that he could use it on his own does not make sense. To be honest I don't see how old man zangetsu could have taught such a thing to ichigo. Volstandig or lets stilt are invariably induced by tools, it is not something that can just be learned. It is simply the basic quincy ability taken to the extreme via an outside tool. Ichigo can learn anything a quincy can however a volstandig is not something a quincy can learn on his own as far as we know.
I disagree with how you are defining volstandig there. The vosltandig or lets stilt are not just fueled by absorbing huge amounts of reishi. Thats what they are, there is no volstandig or lets stilt without taking reishi absorption to the absolute maximum possible by a given quincy. Ichigo absorbing his own shinigami powers does not even properly make sense here. More so, not once has he fought without releasing reiatsu in some form or another.
With kirge the manga was very specific about the situation. Kirge was not releasing power, he was absorbing it hence he did not release power. The situation with aizen and ichigo is intrinsically different, they were releasing reiatsu but lesser beings couldn't feel it.
Everything about the deicide events is about there being something different with aizen's and ichigo's reiatsu. The manga never said anything about the amount of reiatsu whatsoever (that is just a convenient interpretation). There is no reason for us to think that simply amount of power would actually make aizen's power unperceivable to others.
As far as reiatsu goes ichigo was without a doubt immensely superior to aizen. Ichigo barely even made an effort through most of the fight. He was able to stop aizen's blade with his bare hands, he brushed of a level 90 kido with a wave of his sword and he blocked aizen's kido with his arm (although that did hurt him a bit). In a reiatsu fight aizen was simply helpless, he could not oppose ichigo nor defend from him. The only reason aizen survived ichigo's strongest attack was that he could regenerate to the extent he could.
Do you even read what I'm writing? You're repeating what I wrote. Outside tool is needed because Quincies don't have any innate power. That's why they fight by absorbing energy, not by exerting it from within. Ichigo has Shirosaki, which can fuel his power just fine. And I wrote it's not Vollstandig, it just works similar, and could be Yhwach's doing. "I have to give him something for his Bankai, that he CAN'T use, because Shirosaki would take over. Something Quincy-ish, so I can stay in control when he still uses some of his Hollow reiatsu (max 3-4 GTs)... dayum, Quincy ability on Bankai level...? Hey, I know one!".Quote:
Uryu still had reiatsu when he used Letzt Still, so Vollstandig isn't all that perfect. Also I already said, that his Bankai is NOT Vollstandig, it's just an imitation fueled by his powers.Quote:
And yeah, he fought without releasing reiatsu, but you think it was because he had godly reiatsu that a guy who was supposedly weaker in terms of reiatsu and who could tank all of it couldn't feel...
[quote]With kirge the manga was very specific about the situation. Kirge was not releasing power, he was absorbing it hence he did not release power. The situation with aizen and ichigo is intrinsically different, they were releasing reiatsu but lesser beings couldn't feel it. [/quotre]
Nah, you assume Ichigo's case was a matter of magnitude and not ability. So you can't say it was the case in Ichigo's case (sounds bad), unless you get some proof. For all we know it was just Aizen thinking of the reason, and he never got an answer to it. Your guess is just as good as mine. But my guess considers the reason Ichigo was superior (he was additionally a Quincy), and seeks a reason for his superiority in his Quincy side.
Nah, it was specifically said by Aizen, that others can feel it when he LOWERS it, meaning the reason they can't feel it is because it is NOT lowered, thus it's too big. Your interpretation is convenient. "IT WAS SOMETHING ELSE WE DON'T KNOW WHAT AND WE'LL NEVER KNOW BUT IT WAS"Quote:
Dimensions? "Higher dimension" means something like a "higher class". NOTHING indicates those dimensions you speak of are something different.
Stopped Aizen's Kido? It was probably a Cero.Quote:
And you do realize, reiatsu plays a major role in abilities fight, right? Cutting? Stopping with one's hand? NOT connected to reiatsu, it's connected to physical strength, that Ichigo had highly boosted, along with his all basic abilities. Vollstandig-reishi absorbtion= Ichigo's FGT form, that's my whole point.
He regenerated because Ichigo's godly reiatsu, that can't be felt by Aizen because it was too big as you say couldn't hurt him enough. If not for Urahara Ichigo would have died, and noone would ever question Aizen's superiority. The fact Ichigo is alive makes people look for excuses for his loss. It wasn't his win because Urahara sealed Aizen. It wasn't his win because Hogyoku rejected Aizen. Both of them lost their powers, but Aizen was able to stand and would have killed Ichigo.
Shikai GT was taught to ichigo by old man zangetsu but bankai GT was actually taught to ichigo by shirosaki, the manga made that clear. Heck, even during the fight with grimmjow it was using GT that drew shirosaki out. Because it was his technique, his power. Old man zangetsu was in control of shirosaki at the time, shirosaki existed as a part of him. It makes sense that old man zangetsu would have access to zangetsu's powers. Also, ichigo only had a limit over his use of GT because he could not control shirosaki at the time.... Once he got a hold of shirosaki (and particularly after he mastered the mask) he could fire as many GT as he wanted.
I am not sure of what exactly you think volstandig is. From what I gather a volstandig without outside power is just impossible in any form or context. Volstandig is not a state which simply needs huge amounts of power to be accessed, volstandig actually is the quincy's ability to absorb reishi taken to the maximun. By definiton there cannot be something like volstandig that does not involve absorbing power.
The entire point of the manga during the deicide events was about transcendental beings. The comparison made here was that ichigo was to aizen what aizen was to ishin. I am also not talking about just the bit with the ball that aizen threw ichigo.
http://www.mangareader.net/94-57111-...apter-418.html (This is the part I meant about waving away aizen's kido with his hands).
The mountain was not blown away by aizen's power, it was ichigo's and aizen could not even feel it. Ichigo simply blew away aizen's attacks with his own reiatsu, he did so repeatedly. Even when aizen had ichigo's reiatsu in his face during the FGT bit and he still could not feel it (I disagree with the bit about aizen needing physical contact with it to feel it). In the end ichigo simply had reiatsu beyond aizen's comprehension.