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Last edited by Duniak; April 29, 2014 at 07:42 PM.
if the soul king becomes an enemy then ichigo will have to fight the royal guard which i don't think will happen. So, NO, I don't think he is the enemy but rather the blame for the creation of juha bach
Genocidal? Name one genocide that was done by Juha... Thank you. Now let's think about genocides that were Shinigamis' doing. QUINCY massacre 1000 years ago, QUINCY massacre 200 years ago...
Caring about people who worship him? Who is he? Jesus? It's hard to care about people who blindly worship him. Don't forget they're here ONLY because he let them. They're tools for him. Tools that he created with HIS blood and power. He cared about his comrades 1000 years ago, because they were his friends, not creations. Unlike Yamaji, who was ruthless all along and never changed. He got soft, but he still could kill Shunsui and Ukitake because of the rules.
His brethren would die anyway. He doesn't care if they die, because if they do, it'll just be a powerup for him. Again, they're just his tools, that probably wouldn't live otherwise. Even if they survive he wouldn't kill them, he'd just wait for them to rot and die. They're humans.Quote:
Yamamoto is a ruthless killer, who found peace in an organization he was responsible for. 's all. He's just like Kenpachi. Then again, SRs also has normal guys. Haschwald, Askin, GehGehGeh is also normal so far. Buzzbee. Even NaNaNa or whatever his name was. They look strange, they're enemies, but they're not crazy in any sense.Quote:
He doesn't care if they die. That DOESN'T mean he wants to have them killed. He could have just killed them on his own if he only wanted power. He didn't do it. Thus he doesn't want them dead. He just doesn't care. If they die he's just "Oh, James died. Too bad, become my strength."Quote:
Who said he wants to disrupt the balance? He almost did it, but it was only because he started wiping out Hollows and looked for allies. He doesn't care about balance. He wants to avenge his comrades that died 1000 years ago.
And tell me who're those genocidal maniacs you talk about? Bambietta? As Nodt? Gremmy? Gremmy was pretty sane until he met Kenpachi. Sorry, but Gotei 13 has just as many murderous maniacs as Quincies.
Don't jump to conclusions. Askin is not that bad, he didn't attack Mayuri when he had a chance. Is Haschwald crazy psycho? I don't think so. Now my favourite. Is Ishida murderous maniac? Is SR that fought Kyoraku also a psycho? Or NaNaNa, or Buzzbee?Quote:
People who are captains now are protecting Seireitei. But we're not talking about entire organization, we're talking about 0,0001% of 'em. Captains and VCs. And if we look at them, we have quite a few psychos. Four. The nature of organization doesn't make few individuals less psychotic. Not every person in Nazi was a bad person. Not every german was evil. SS and Third Reich were bad, right? It works the other way round too. Even if G13 is good organization, there can be psychos. Ever heard of serial killers being policemen or lawyers? Organization or a job doesn't make them NOT psychos.
Last edited by Duniak; May 01, 2014 at 11:29 AM.
As for the second bit, are you serious? To begin with none of that makes sense, for another half the stuff you say are basically the reasons juhabach is the evil one here. Its hard to care for his subordinates? No, it is not, that is beyond ridiculous.... The stern riter and his soldiers weren't created in the literal sense, they are not soulless toys, they are actual human beings who pledged their life to juhabach. They are actual human beings who juhabach lead into being murderous thugs who cannot bring themselves to care about each other. That to juhabach the stern riter are only tools is precisely the problem here, that is precisely what makes him from any conceivable point of view the bad guy. In the eyes of the quincy juhabach is by all intents and purposes jesus. Juhabach walks around healing the quincy and giving them power through his ability, he has control over life and death without any quincy questioning it and the lot of them aim to make him god of the world on top of him having the name of their god. And he still kills the guys who basically worship him over nothing, no, more than that, he needs them to continually die and will make sure they keep dying forever. That particular bit is what makes it particularly scary that he might end up as god of the world, more so than the fact that he is willing to kill millions and potentially billions by destroying the balance of souls.
Of course yamamoto was going to kill shunsui and ukitake but what choice did he have at the moment? At that point no one had any idea that the chamber 46, the competent ruling body, had been killed and shunsui and ukitake as captains had effectively betrayed the gotei 13. Even in real life scenarios treason is rewarded with death... Its not like shunsui and ukitake even knew or had reason to suspect there was something wrong with the chamber 46. What they did at the time was the equivalent to disagreeing with a legimitate ruling in a trial and went with machine guns to the court to make the point they disagreed. And even then, yamamoto could not bring himself to actually kill them...
And of course juhabach wants to destroy the balance. Think about it, why else kill thousands upon thousands of hollows? That was done specifically to disrupt the balance of souls, there is no other coherent reason to do that. And within the arrancar juhabach was not looking for allies, he was looking for slaves. He brainwashes them into becoming expendable puppets whom he kills himself for literally no reason. Even then, isn't the implication here that juhabach specifically aimed for the disruption of the balance of souls? Juhabach makes people aiming for genocides look like the good guys at this point, the guy is worst, he is aiming for an apocalypse.
All genocidal maniacs, that we call Shinigamis agreed on it. But only few Quincies understood what they were talking about. But too bad Shinigami weren't really good at peace talks...
And are you serious? I mean damn, you're like a 50 year old screaming "KILL ALL MUSLIMS" because of what he saw in TV and knows only one side of a story, american one. It's astonishing how much you want to
Again, he DOESN'T want to tip the balance. Don't use it as an argument unless you show me PROOF, that it's his intention. And I'm not talking about HM conquer, where he killed some Hollows because they didn't want to help him. Because the reason he did this WASN'T tipping the balance, it was conquering HM and getting some soldiers, that doesn't need to be taught.
You think I'm trying to explain why Juha isn't evil? Come oooon. All I'm saying Shinigamis are no better. As a matter of fact, they're worse. Just look at how you justify their massacres. You're basically saying the same thing I do.
We're living in 21st century, helloooo? Treason rewarded with death? You don't think those mangas you read are real life, do you? Treason is rewarded with being burned or Quantico. In Middle East, though...Quote:
He didn't have a choice? And what the hell does C46 have to do with it? HE DIDN'T KNOW THEY WERE DEAD. Thus, all he could do was bringing them to a trial. Nah, he wanted to KILL THEM.
He just didn't have time to, the bigger treason was happening just in Seireitei, Aizen was supposed to be dead, he wasn't, Hogyoku, all that shit.Quote:
Don't forget he wanted to KILL 60% of captains and VCs just to kill Aizen. That was like the most stupid decision he could EVER make. G13 would crumble with only few captains. This guy was a maniac, that was pictured as a good guy. But his nature never changed. You think germans knew Hitler was mad? They loved the guy!
Tell that to As Nodt. Juha saved him. Auswahlen? You do realize he distributed his blood to get more strength, right? And even so, he didn't kill purebloods. He could. I mean, what the hell, they all served one purpose, making his soul stronger within them and making him as powerful as he was during his fight with Yamaji. Yet he spared them. And he didn't KILL them, he took their powers. Katagiri couldn't handle it, Masaki was killed by a Hollow. He didn't kill them, he took what was rightfully his.Quote:
I don't think they NEED to be redeemed in any way. I'm just saying they're normal guys, who fight for the wrong side.Quote:
In Wandenreich, winning is everything. If you lose to a Shinigami, you die. Simple. Not to mention the fact, that they're alive after getting beaten. I mean, they should be like Spartans. You either go back on your own feet or on a shield. They returned without a shield. Plus they were too weak to beat Shinigamis, so taking back their powers benefits him more. They won't make Juha stronger, so they can just go back. Again, they're just tools.
Killing Hollows? Army? Arrancar doesn't need to be taught how to fight?Quote:
And that doesn't mean he wanted it. It could be something like "Boom, slash, crush" "Your Majesty, at this rate, the balance will crumble!" "Not that shit again Luders...". And even if he wanted to, he wanted to screw Shinigamis, not kill milions of people. His purpose is different. Atomic bomb that was dropped in Hiroshima was supposed to scare Japan, not kill thousands of people. We know how it ended, but the guy who dropped the bomb wasn't genocidal maniac. He got mad over it, though and never came back to sanity.
Every Quincy? We have only few bad guys. We have strange looking guys, cyborgs, but outright psychos? 3-4. Will there be more to come? I don't know. G13 has just as many.Quote:
There is no reason for us to think the quincy did not know what the shinigami were talking about. And then, what difference would that make? If they couldn't understand what the shinigami were saying then what alternative were the shinigami left with? Were they supposed to just shrug and say "I am sure the problem will solve itself"? If the quincy could not understand or accept what the shinigami were saying regarding the balance then the only alternative they were left with was force because under no circumstance it is acceptable to risk the balance.
I showed you the links, juhabach even sent that arrancar to inspect the balance and as it turns out they expected the balance to have tipped at some point (which it didn't because mayuri sacrificed 28000 people to prevent that). There is no reason for wandenreich to simply go on to kill hollows like they did other than intentionally tipping the balance. Even just killing hollows with their arrows is wrong to begin with since they knowingly obliterate souls out of existence which I am pretty sure is worst than death.
Well, even in the 21th century there are places that have death penalty for treason. Although it is true that it has been progressively abolished in favor of life prison (which I honestly doubt is more humane even if I disagree with the death penalty).
I doubt taking shunsui and ukitake would be a thing for yamamoto under the circumstances (they are thousands of years old). Even then, would shunsui and ukitake simply have obliged had yamamoto simply arrested them? It would have likely resulted in either a death penalty or life imprisonment for either of them in which case they were better of fighting anyways. I'd argue that one way or the other the fight between them at that stage was inevitable.
As nodt was saved at the last moment solely because doing so would turn a profit for juhabach. And even if he had saved nodt under ideal circumstances it would not justify the killing of the other quincy. We know for a fact that virtually every quincy from the selection died, that was specifically said. Only ishida survived on his own. Masaki might have been an exception although it is entirely plausible that she simply did not live long enough to die from the selection itself. Katagiri lived for 3 months and nodt was hospitalized and dying, odds are that something like what those 2 went through is what happened to every quincy involved in it.
The fact that they are tools (and insane) is what makes the quincy the evils one here. What sort of policy is it for them to come back in victory or none at all? Shinigami are in comparison centuries ahead regarding notions like that. If the shinigami had that sort of attitude against their own then there wouldn't be shinigami left...
Does it make a difference if if juhabach intentions were to screw shinigami instead of killing millions? He is still doing it, he still needs to be stopped. I doubt that at this point the quincy don't know about that stuff. Heck, even ishida at the beginning of the story thought the shinigami were right to wage war against the quincy and stopping them from killing hollows (and to boot ishida heard the story from his grandfather, not shinigami). Wandenreich without a shred of a doubt knows about the balance of souls and for whatever reason want to turn it.
Virtually every quincy we have seen is a psyco... Bambieta and the 4 other girls that killed her, BG9 (attacked a little girl), bazzb is at least in a grey area, gremy (threw a meteor at everyone), kirge (killed his fellow quincy and arrancar for literally no reason), jugram executes his comrades even though they committed no crime, mask is perhaps questionable although going berserk while screaming "murder" does not bode well in his favor, royd transformed into juhabach which means he was probably aware of how little juhabach cared for him and the other stern riter and he still worshiped him... Any stern riter that has gotten any degree of development has been proven to be a murderous psycho... There are a few that still have the benefit of doubt because they haven't been developed yet however things don't bode well for them if we consider juhabach wants them to be insane.
"Hey, Luders, check the balance, we're doomed if we tip it, right?"Quote:
"If we keep going like that, we'll tip the balance"
So, where is your proof Juha specifically aimed to tip the balance, other than the fact he was aware he could do it?
Yeah, but we're talking about civilizied countries. And there's quite a lot of them that are not killing for it. In the Middle East on the other hand... they set some guys on fire for less.Quote:
Getting "burned", stripped of your whole life and on your own without anything is worse than a death, or a prison.
I don't think they'd have had a choice, really. They didn't stand a chance. If Aizen was sentenced for 20000 years prison for a treason of such caliber, I doubt Ukitake and Shunsui would be held for more than 100 years.Quote:
Wut? Where? Ishida was the only survivor because he actually KEPT his powers and Juha couldn't take his soul back. And even if those guys died without their powers, Juha didn't kill them. Masaki died because Hollows attacked her. If she hadn't fought Grand Fisher, she wouldn't have died at all. She'd still live probably. Isshin would just take over.Quote:
Devoting your life to a cause is what makes them evil? Are we living in a same world, on the same planet? Without devotion and feeling of a purpose they wouldn't even try to fight. Shinigamis didn't do ANYTHING to them. Name one reason other than their devotion to "His Majesty" for their fighting.Quote:
They know about the balance, and stop at that. They have no reason to tip it, as they'd also be screwed if that happens.Quote:
If you look at a bigger picture, Shinigamis were right. But their method was freaking BAD. It was unneccessary bloodshed. They should take care of it earlier, try to talk with Quincies, not show up when it was almost too late and massacre them. No wonder Quincies didn't listen.
BG9 was a damn cyborg, he carried out orders. -.- He's neither evil nor good, he's a robot. Kirge killing Arrancars and Quincies? Arrancars who rebelled, Quincies who decided to run away. Still fits spartan "Win or die" philosophy. And we don't know what happened with Bambietta. And again, Jugram is far from a psycho. He carries out orders.Quote:
Aizen was probably sent for a 20000 year sentence because he had that immortality thing going on. I don't think you can get any more traitorous than what he did and they did say the sokyoku was generally used to execute captains.
But what about the rest? Katagiri died, nodt was dying, masaki ended up dead indirectly... Juhabach himself said that every quincy that was part of the selection died. Do you think they all died by freak accidents or unrelated diseases at the same time? I doubt juhabach would have failed to know they would all died shortly after. Juhabach effectively killed the lot of them for their power with uruy surviving either as some sort of plan or something beyond juhabach's calculations.
A cause? The quincy are fighting only for juhabach, they have never actually named an actual cause. And juhabach himself is a maniac who modeled his military organization after murderers from 1000 years ago. Within the gotei 13 you have a couple of people who are clearly insane and should in a fair world be locked up in the deepest dampest hole you can find but even among those only one would kill their comrades for no reason. Every single stern riter that has been even mildly developed has already shown he has the same regard for life as mayuri or less. Juhabach killed his subordinates for no reason, kirge killed his subordinates for running away from enemies they would have died fighting against anyways, bambietta killed a dude who had sex with her, her girlfriends were more concerned about the mess than the murder and then presumably murdered bambietta, BG9 attacked a little girl to get information omada might have had, gremy could not be bothered to care about killing everyone and sereitei and beyond, mask killed james (who apparently would have revived but still) and at some point went berserk while screaming "murder". How is any of that not evil? How are not the shinigami better than that? Safe for mayuri the shinigami in general have at least cared for their comrades well being and would actually put themselves at risk to help each other.
At least in the version we have tried to get the quincy to stop fighting hollows for years. That much was said in urahara's version of the story back in the day. Based on what we know it is not a situation of the shinigami asking politely once and then going on a murderous rampage.
He needed Arrancar soldiers, he can "make" Arrancars with Hallibel (creepy), he has lots of Soldats+ he has SRs on par with Shinigami captains. Ending the world+ending himself+ending all worlds isn't his aim. He wants to take over SS, take revenge, become a king. And how was he supposed to kill Arrancars? Without Quincy abilities? Let me remind you, he didn't want to kill them at all. They were supposed to KILL EACH OTHER in a tournament to prove worthy of being in VR. Those were the orders. They didn't want to kill Hollows at all. But when they rebelled they were disposed of. By Quincies with, what shouldn't come as a surprise, Quincy abilities.Quote:
He could be in here for eternity, yet they gave him 20000 years instead of unlimited time.Quote:
Nodt was a mixed blood? Wut? Since when? All mixed bloods lost their powers. Where did that come from...? None of mixed bloods were killed by Juha. They were killed by what happened afterwards. Yet Uryu still had his power and he is still alive. Then, Juha refers to Ishida as the only one to overcome AND SURVIVE Auswahlen. It means overcoming it is one thing, surviving after it the other. All Gemischt Quincies couldn't overcome and survive afterwards, thus they died.Quote:
I'm not saying those cases are not evil or that those few SRs are normal. But Kirge's behaviour fits their philosophy/religion. I can't justify Gremmy (who isn't that mad) or Bambietta. I'm just saying it's just ignorant to say SS was any better. We had Aizen, Unohana, Kenpachi, Gin, Tousen, Yamamoto and Mayuri as captains at one time. 7 psychos on 13 posts. More psychos than normal guys. SS is also fucked up. And Juha's cause might be considered just from his point of view (but NO war can be considered just). SS massacred Quincies twice.Quote:
Imagine this manga was called "Quincy", and was about Juha who grew up with godly ability, had friends etc. Then, he is massacred by Shinigamis, with bloodthirsty maniac, monster called Yamamoto leading them. He goes mad, everyone he ever cared for (he even cried when he saw his comrades' corpses) died, and dedicates his whole life to revenge. Creates army of obedient soldiers, that with his power, become mighty fighters that can help him get revenge. But during this time bloodthirsty Yamamoto became a good guy and all. Does it justify his actions 1000 years ago? I can name loooots of stories/films where bad guys become good (or at least abandon their former life). Tarantino's "Kill Bill" being the most popular one.
If whole SS was wiped out in next 20 chapters and Ichigo would be the only to survive I'm SURE he'd come back in few years to massacre Quincies.
They came a liiiiittle bit too late. I mean, even if half of Quincies didn't agree, they could sort this out, discuss it with other Quincies. But no, they came with "All agree or we kill you all" attitude. Sure, Quincies should obey, they didn't, so Shinigamis had to kill them. But they came when balance was in pretty bad shape. They monitored Quincies, they knew their abilities. They KNEW it'd come down to this anyway. And yet they waited soooo long.Quote:
Last edited by Duniak; May 02, 2014 at 04:26 PM.
Why would it be too late? Its a simple matter of them not hunting down hollows... Heck, we know a few hollows disappearing here and there is not an issue, the problems start when thousands of them disappear. The only scenario in which the quincy were a problem in this regard is one in which they actively hunted down the hollows and refused to stop doing so. I don't see why it would be to late to ask them to stop based o what we know at least.
What arrancar are you talking about? I don't think the manga meant wandenreich killed thousands of arrancar at HM to disrupt the balance. The shinigami did not even know about the quincy being at HM at that point. I would think the manga simply meant thousands of hollows, not arrancar, were killed by quincy. IThe tournament bit we saw was only with kirge, I doubt those were his literal orders. And even he other quincy made the point that kirge did not actually intend on recruiting anyone (at least until he saw tres bestias). And even then, the tournament bit is inhuman, cruel and outright evil against a bunch of people that had never actually done anything to the quincy and were for all we know living peacefully.
Safe for masaki we know the selection targeted mixed blood quincy. Juhabach himself said nodt was a survivor and it was via giving him power (a piece of his soul) that nodt survived. Nodt was dying based on what we saw during the chapter, I doubt he would have lived much longer if juhabach had not intervened. As for the death of all the mixed blood quincy... do you really think the whole thing was a coincidence? Who knows how many quincy remained in the human world.... Do you really think it is just unfortunate accidents that killed them? When it happened to each and every person targeted by juhabach? If the selection in itself was not the direct cause of their deaths in some form or another then it means the quincy as a whole were somehow doomed... worst luck in history by such a specific group of people.
My point is that SS has at larged changed from what they were 1000 years ago and today it is a significantly different organization from what it was even 2 years ago. I am not saying it justifies past deeds but based on their current state the quincy are clearly the evil ones and the worst alternative of the two. The fact remains that juhbach and every single stern riter is at least currently as crazy as mayuri. In turn SS has currently mostly sane people like shunsui, soifon, love, shinji, byakuya, komamura, kensei, hitsugaya or ukitake. Kenpachi and mayuri remain but for the most part they are under control and follow orders.
We don't really have a version of he events from 200 years ago that suggests that what you are saying is correct. From what we know the shinigami insisted for years that the quincy stopped and only went with the war thing when things were getting out of hand. We would need at least another version that we have reason to believe is credible to back up what you say here.
There was no other amy, just Kirge's, he was in charge fo everything. If he didn't plan on recruiting anyone, why was Luders and Ivan in their army? He recruited some guys.
I think it was explicitly said Juha had nothing to do with their deaths. He took their powers, only. People like Katagiri died because of it, but not everyone.Quote:
Hypothetical situation. I kicked my friend in his balls. When he was heading back home he got hit by a truck, died. He couldn't run away because pain in his balls clouded his judgement. Who killed him, me or the truck driver? They couldn't handle not being able to do anything, tried to attack Hollows without powers to save souls. There are lots of possibilities. Old habits die hard.
My keyboard magically stopped working, I will respond to the rest later, screen keyboard or whatever it's called sucks.
A point the manga has made is that hollow attacks in the human world are actually relatively rare. Even when we saw ichigo taking care of hollows it was mostly souls that were being targeted. Even aizen made the point that ichigo, being someone of immense reiatsu, never suffered an attack until aizen made one happen. Quincy would do fine targets for a hollow but for given how often hollow attacks take place it is weird that just on that they would kill the thousands it would require to cause damage to the balance. Heck, urahara even had ishida take care of a hollow every now and then during the timeskip. I would think the issue here is quincy actively hunting out hollows in the past, I don't see how arbitrary hollow attacks would cause enough damage here. Remember the pill ishida used to draw hollows? The quincy don't need that to defend themselves, they need that to make hunting hollows easy. Hunting hollows is distinct from just defending themselves. As for souken and other quincy the issue was not SS not giving a crap about them, in this particular case the issue was mayuri. SS kept an eye on them but for the most part left them to their own devices. The issue here is not SS being evil (mayuri is the evil one), the issue is SS being incompetent.
Well, what about this part?
Heck, the group kirge was with was called jagdarme which means hunting army in german and japanese. Kirge was there to supposedly recruit people but even his soldiers did not think he was actually going to take anyone. Their intention for the most part was to kill arrancar who hadn't done anything to them and were as far as we know living peacefully.
Ok, lets assume masaki and katagiri were special cases. In this particular context we could take that to mean that 100% of the people were meant to survive the selection in the long term. However that is not what happened. According to juhabach 100% of the people involved in the selection died (safe for nodt who was saved by juhabach when bedridden). Does that make sense? Its not like 99.9% of people survived, juhabach's specific words are that 100% died safe for ishida. Are we to assume every mixed blood quincy was simply victim of arbitrary accidents or circumstancesthat just happened to take place after the selection? How massively improbable is that? Even if we assume there were only 20 mixed blood quincies back in the day if we calculate the odds of every single one of them at relatively the same time being victim of a freak accident or set of circumstances then we have that the odds of that happening are effectively 0. The selection killed this people and it is certain that juhabach knew they were doomed and simply did not care and did it anyway. And for that matter, the stern riter don't care that juhabach killed those quincy, heck, juhabach called ishida the only survivor in front of them.
What has really interested me since the beginning is the fact that the Shinigami and Quincies are polar opposites; this strongly suggests their existences are intertwined, and they may have been born together. Now, I'm not saying they're literally brothers, but they could have been born as an effect of some event that occurred.
I like to use electrolysis as an analogy; now, you have salt water (Human) which is PH neutral. However, shove an electrical current through it and you get an acid (Shinigami) and an Alkali (Quincy); these are polar opposites, but they were both born from something neutral.
Even if attacks are rare, it was frequent enough to disrupt the balance pretty badly. And I always thought Ichigo was targeted because of his reiatsu. But Isshin made a pretty good job hiding it.
And I wouldn't trust Aizen that much, he talked a lot to show how superior in intellect he is. I don't think he planned all of it. Him knowing about Ichigo was also a coincidence.
Kirge was a madman, but he did collect some Arrancars. And he still was following orders. And SS still has some madmen.
He offered joining SRs to Tres Bestias. And you know, hunting means catching and/or killing, massacre means killing all of 'em. I still think Juha didn't want to disrupt the balance, it's also a game over for him. If he wanted to do it he'd do it alone. If he wanted to do a Kamikaze he wouldn't need SRs to fight Shinigami. He could handle whole HM on his own, I'm sure of it, considering he'd have all of his powers. He could try to scare Shinigamis, make their attention go elsewhere, but then it was only a distraction, and not the purpose in itself.
Even if they did die, it wasn't Juha that killed them. We know Katagiri wasn't really dead (she fell into coma because she was too weak, As Nodt was "one of few survivors, nothing says he survived the Selection, would kill the whole idea behind Uryu being so special and the only one), Masaki was just fine when we look at her, but she died protecting her child. And I am NOT saying they all died in accidents. I mean they died just like Masaki. They had power, they fought, then they lost it, but they couldn't stand doing nothing after fighting all that time. And they died protecting civilians, friends, or souls being attacked and devoured.
Last edited by Duniak; May 06, 2014 at 06:34 AM.