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You ignore that Madara and Obito casted genjutsu over Kurama and controlled him. The same as Sasuke.Quote:
Paralyzing isn't controlling, merely halting... ok.
Yeah, sure, because Sasuke was never under it anyway. Naruto, on the other hand, was protected by bijuu sage mode - there is no data to support him able to break from it.Quote:
His normal sharingan broke MS tsukuyomi, that's alright; however, it did not prevent Sasuke from being under its influence. IT, on the other hand, didn't have any effect on Sasuke.Quote:
Yes, the same way I expect myself being capable of turning on a car and starting driving even though I never used one before. DId you remember that I posted Sasuke awakening abilities and then refining its use? It was automatic for him as soon as he awakened them. Like I said, those primary sharingan abilities are just superman's powers.Quote:
Being good using it doesn't equal strong/weak genjutsu. Sasuke's basic genjutsu was weak throughout part II, no denying since Danzou himself stated it, but against users who seemingly have no experience dealing with it is another story. You yourself stated that Sasuke's pale in comparison to Itachi's. And yes, he was not so great using it since we have Killer Bee's fight to prove my point. Danzou lost because he was cocky and Sasuke exploited that - and here he made good use of his weak genjutsu.Quote:
Couldn't or didn't use susanoo? And again your example is about refining its use, not being unable to use it.Quote:
I don't know what d you mean by a level of skill required here. AFAIK, Sasuke has plenty of both, he was able to master raikiri/chidori rather quickly (Sasuke always was a lightning user, even if he wasn't good at manipulating it at the beginning and required training).
Last edited by Dhazard; February 19, 2015 at 07:34 PM.
And when Madara and obito did so, kurama was clearly being controlled. His mind had been subdued and he couldn't control his actions. When sasuke used his rinnegan genjutsu, kurama's mind was intact as he told naruto to help and he could even move a bit.Quote:
Obviously paralyzing isn't controlling. Does the paralyzed person do the bidding of the one who paralyzed him? No.
He was never actually under IT. He simply prevented himself from falling victim. What he did is the equivalent of closing your eyes against a sharingan user so you don't get caught in a genjutsu in the first place.Quote:
IT did not affect sasuke because he did not expose himself to it. Its clearly stated, being under the light puts you in the genjutsu. Sasuke prevents this by using his susano to block out the light. That's why he waited under it instead of staying outside. Black zetsu himself notes that the susano didn't allow the light to penetrate. That aside, none of this translates to being able to use IT because being the juubi's jinchuriki and having the rinne sharingan are prerequisite to cast it and sasuke has none of those.Quote:
Yes, and I suppose the fact that you have a car means you can simply get in a drive cross-country without having the skill. Or maybe you'll say Superman as a kid, could do everything despite the fact that he had only realized part of his powers and was adjusting to it.Quote:
Don't care what danzou says. Sasuke genjutsu was good. He successfully took over Orochimaru using genjutsu as well as incapacitating C who was both a sensor and jounin and also incapacitated killerbee albeit briefly.Quote:
Danzou commended sasuke's skills but said it was inferior to Itachi's MS tsukuyomi which I agree with.
Again, this is simply by the way. The point is that sasuke always used genjutsu. It was the equivalent of naruto using kage bunshin. Every single fight up till the war (apart from his brief clash with team 7 after danzou's fight) involved him using genjutsu.
This is my point. Its a technique used to give an opening and sasuke being tactical, always made use of it. Thus not using it in part 1 indicates he couldn't actually do so for some reason
Couldn't use it at the time as far as we know. Potential was there but he hadn't achieved it at the time.Quote:
Obviously you missed some biology classes here.Quote:
Hmmm, was that really simple as having eyes closed? (sorry, just teasing you LOL)Quote:
link please.Yes, you are indeed correct, my bad. So Naruto doesn't have any protection against Sasuke's genjutsu while in BSM, only by closing his eyes - or perhaps using the tactic you described. That shenaningans that you say as pre-requisite for IT is totally nonsensical, though, since it was the flower blossing the Eye the only pre-requisite here (the whole company was desperate to bring down the tree). Still, Sasuke's eye is the very same as the one casting IT and since IT is provoked by that eye the logical conclusion is that he is able to cast it. I ask you to provide link that says otherwise from a source confirming that sasuke rinnengan is different from the one that casted IT.
yes, if I am smart enough like Sasuke(who is considered a genius), I should be able. Even more if it's an automatic and you just have to break or speed up.. and yes if it's exactly as it happened in that comic, you may be close to understand now: he had the ability, even strong eyes he could not control himself properly - just like sasuke was adjusting his sharingan power against Haku.Quote:
yeah, right.. for some reason.. sasuke being tactical, always made use of it.. Sasuke not using it indicates simply that he did not use it. I made assumptions supported by evidences already pointed out multiple times and you give me "he didn't use it, thus he couldn't".Quote:
You don't need to rephrase your statement. It's clear enough that you are not getting a theoretical point I've made using cannon stuff because you simply don't want to understand them.
Btw, this whole argument is useless.
You fail to realize that when he awakes his sharingan he already has access to it, no potential involved here. He may use badly, but still use it.Quote:
Last edited by Dhazard; February 19, 2015 at 08:22 PM.
That's naruto remembering when jiraiya taught him how to break genjutsu. Goes on into the next pages.
Ofcourse we can't exactly pin the exact timing of this, but its very likely it was before the Vote fight considering that we were never told about naruto and jiraiya's training during the timeskip.
You really need to learn to state your points without trying to demean the person you're arguing with.Quote:
Anyway, what I'll like to know is which biology class you attended that told you that being paralyzed is the same as being controlled.
No matter, I'll help you out:
Paralyze: to cause (a person or part of the body) to become partly or wholly incapable of
Control: to direct the behavior of (a person or animal). To cause (a person or animal) to do what you want. To have power over (something). To direct the actions or function of
(something). To cause (something) to act or function in a certain way
Paralyze impairs movement, control directly affects actions.
Just for future reference. Although if you don't already know this by now then well....lol.
I said its about the same thing in that the light did not penetrate the susano so sasuke himself doesn't get in the genjutsu to begin with. The genjutsu is channeled though the light.Quote:
Sasuke got past this by preventing the light from reaching him and the others. Sharingan genjutsu is cast by eye contact, one can get by this by closing their eye.
Here you go.Quote:
Let's ignore the fact that sasuke is a kid.Quote:
While we are it, let's ignore the fact that you need to start the car first, need to know how the different pedals work and more importantly, need to understand how to navigate with the steering. Next time, pick up a 7 year old kid who's obviously brilliant and lend him an automatic car to drive for 5 Mins without explaining anything to him. Just make sure you have insurance for both car and kid though cus both aren't coming back unscathed.
Like I said, then there should be no problem with anyone using izanagi. Its all about potential because the sharingan doesn't come with a written manual. You either learn by experimenting (like sasuke did against bee), by training (like Itachi) or by tutorial/tips from someone else (like obito got from Madara for izanagi or sasuke learning izanami from Itachi). Alternatively hatred can advance the doujutsu and allow access to new techniques. There are a number of ways these things become available and from all indication, sasuke hadn't achieved the skill needed to cast genjutsu in part 1.Quote:
Last edited by Holt; February 19, 2015 at 08:34 PM.
2-Naruto was not the only one Sasuke had to fight. Also he was using tactics. Look at VOE fight, he was conserving his chakra and using 3 tomoe to dodge Naruto and land blows, he WAS keeping a cool head and fighting using tactics.
3-Kakashi? Probably as he was low as hell on chakra and about to fall over. Naruto? No way. If nothing else Naruto had 9 team partners inside ready to bust him out...
4-Sasuke just having the eyes does not mean he knows how to cast a genjutsu and can do so efficiently. You need to train for that mate. Izanami and Izanagi are 2 examples of genjutsu that you can use with a basic sharingan but I assure you, he had no clue how to cast them since not even in part 2 he knew that. Having the doujutsu does not give you instant access and mastery over the genjutsu that eye can cast.
Prove what? That Amaterasu is a jutsu? I hope you are joking, that it was used before him in a fight and was also put out in a fight with him? Do you really need me to link you the fight with Itachi? Come on wtf?Quote:
Anyway genjutsu as I told you above requires learning before using. I gave you 2 examples of genjutsus that Sasuke had no clue how to cast by part 2 of the manga. MS abilities are unlocked and it would appear they just need combat to improve and feelings to upgrade (Susano). Obviously the fact that he knew it was possible to put out Amaterasu helped him.
For instance Itachi also showed a type of sharingan mirror genjutsu thing that reversed the genjutsu on Kurenai, Sasuke never displayed that.
Now stop and think about it, part 2 Sasuke uses genjutsu as an important part of any tactics he uses, he does not in part 1? Makes no sense man. Just saying he was a "pre-teen" does not cover it. He used genjutsu in fight where he was basically in rage mode and wanting nothing more then to kill the target (Danzo). He also used genjutsu in a fight with Bee where he underestimated his target over and over and over.
Seriously there is no indication Sasuke was able to do genjutsu in part 1, did he had the tools required to do genjutsu in part 1? Probably but that is another thing.
Last edited by xXan; February 20, 2015 at 03:30 AM.
I'm not sure why Sasuke not using genjutsu on Naruto means he can't use it or it won't work. That's a horrible logic and assumption backed by nothing. The fight was more of a straightforward fight with barely any strategy, except for Sasuke stealing chakra. One side was trying to attack with all he had while the other was defending with all he had, until he decided to attack as well.
Genjutsu will work on Naruto. The question is, will Sasuke follow up successfully or will he be too late? The biggest reason why Bee clotheslined Sasuke after genjutsu was because Sasuke dropped his guard as he thought Bee was down. Sasuke won't make the same mistake twice, and he likely didn't want to waste chakra on genjutsu when he knew/thought it would not work.
Oh, so you're all off topic? Good to know. I skipped most of the posts though because the first few posts made me wanna bash my brains in.
But Sasuke wasn't able to use genjutsu, otherwise he would have used it. Genjutsu requires training, SHaringan just makes it easier. Sasuke wasn't trained in genjutsu at the time, if I recall, until he joined Orochimaru. But now, he's trained, has the Rinnegan, and experienced using genjutsu on a jinchuuriki before, so he won't be caught off guard like he was.
Can genjutsu disrupt Naruto getting Kyuubi's chakra and Sage Mode and put him back in base mode? If not, Sasuke will have to get around the defense as well.
I mean, sasuke pulled out amateratsu when he and naruto were exhausted and yet didn't use genjutsu. I think its pretty clear he knew it wasn't a viable option.
Nah, genjutsu can't do that. Its merely an illusion so it doesn't affect the users state. Eg after sasuke put bee in a genjutsu, the cloak remained. Also when Itachi used izanami on kabuto, kabuto's sage mode remained.
As for your last part we have people in genjutsu and still having chakra cloak or SM on. Hell Kurama can even take full command of said chakra and defend Naruto even if Naruto's mind is "off line".
Last edited by xXan; February 22, 2015 at 06:56 AM.
But how is that related to this fight? Sasuke and Naruto back then were different from now. Sasuke couldn't use genjutsu (he has never shown the ability to use genjutsu in Part I), while now he can but chose not to. Their first fight shouldn't have any bearing on their last one, given Naruto was mainly on the defensive and wasn't trying to beat up Sasuke like he was in their first VotE fight, while Sasuke was constantly on the offensive.
Sasuke was aiming to kill Naruto in both fights when he got serious, and Sasuke and Naruto were exhausted in their second fight. Why would either of them use anything short of their strongest attack/s when one is aiming to kill and the other is trying to defend himself? Naruto and Sasuke didn't use everything in their repertoire though.
How can Kyuubi do that to Naruto? But as Holt reminded, that means Sasuke will have to launch a powerful attack to get past the defense. I'm not sure if Susano'o arrow can do it, but it should be possible because of the piercing ability. Amaterasu is out of the question because if the Kyuubi helps Naruto, then he will snap out of the genjutsu and escape the Amaterasu.
And unlike their actual fight, this fight will be harder as Naruto and Sasuke will give everything they got and hopefully use their brains.
Sasuke did use everything that was useful in his repertoire. Susanoo + chidori is his maximum(without the bijuus), so there is no excuses here. But Naruto could've ended the fight with a shunshin before Sasuke's first move, using a superior jutsu during the first clash or just using KB to overwhelm Sasuke in the first chapter.
Sasuke was not exausted, this was never stated. But Naruto was stated to be heavily weakened, and we've also seen him fighting for 3 days or so.
None of Sasuke's jutsu can go trough Naruto's defenses, given he blocked an onmyouton beam with his BM.Quote:
Their brains are useless here because they can't outsmart each other given that their scores in the DB are equal. Sasuke is more intelligent, but Naruto is smarter and more creative.Quote:
Last edited by carinha; February 22, 2015 at 07:32 PM.
The best you could do is move back, find his premise and read it. The short version is that he was trying to establish a pattern for Sasuke's behavior.Quote:
Naruto was by far more exhausted then Sasuke considering his chakra poll. If Naruto did not had to fight all over the entire battlefield for days he would be able to keep Sasuke for days, enough to win a chakra race with no difficulty.Quote:
Also Naruto only got serious and used the most potent ability when Sasuke drained the bijus and even then only used enough to nullify Sasuke's move, if he could do more is unknown but its "known" that Naruto wanted to save his friend not kill him. Also of course they did not use everything in their repertoire, they used the most potent abilities for each of their goal. Sasuke used the most effective means to kill Naruto and Naruto used the most effective means to try and save his friend.
Do what? Defend him? We already know that Kurama can control the chakra cloak, remember part 1when Sasuke said that chakra had a mind of its own and he can't track it? Even if Naruto's mind is down Kurama can take control not only of Naruto's chakra but also body, well Kurama or any of the 9 bijus.Quote:
Now what arrow would that be? Indra's arrow? That one would penetrate his defenses BUT Sasuke can't use that here as he can't drain the bijus. Were you referring to his normal Susano arrow? That would sand no chance even if we assume its more powerful then the last one I remember him shooting vs Tobi, Tobi deflected it with no difficulty with his black rods.
Considering Sasuke can't access the bijus and Naruto actually wants him defeated/dead here... Its actually more easy. Sasuke has no answer to the planed draining double FRS (whatever the name was). Sasuke can't match that power because he can't drain the bijus and so turns to dust the moment Naruto uses that. Then imagine the thousands of clones Naruto can create, remember what he said to Kaguya, this dimension is now mine(in reference to his clone numbers). Now imagine a great number of this clones using full Kurama mode and going for Sasuke, we already know this is possible since Naruto and 3 clones was it? Used it at the same time in that last fight.Quote:
Now Sasuke's defenses... Remember Kaguya 1 paneled his Susano with the same move that Naruto almost deflected from a more powerful Kaguya. Naruto was not even in full Kurama mode and was able to do that with his orbs... Seriously Sasuke does not stand a chance in hell.
It's just a made-up statement, which makes your last paragraph highly ironical as for a guy who complains about my reading comprehension, it seems to come in a rather sporadic manner to you - as This: http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/697/6 - is directly linked to This: http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/698/4 - and it not even remotely translates into 'inexperienced with Rinnegan.' Don't be absurd as it doesn't take more than a 5th grader to make sense out of that stupidly simple dialogue. It means just that 'Weakened powers.'
Jesus fucking Christ! Your translation of that dialogue is laughably insane. 'Weakened Powers' means 'inexperienced with Rinnegan'? By God ...
---------- Post added at 02:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:00 AM ----------
Christ on a crutch.
Last edited by shahdan; Yesterday at 04:03 PM.