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Compassion, definitely. The manga said that traits like love and cooperation with others is what brought people together (which Ashura had), not an intelligence or basic sense for battle (which Indra had).
And a leader leads his people, not his advisors. Two road street. You're trying your damnedest to make it seem like Naruto's bleeding heart is just as important as Sasuke's strategic mind and it's simply wrong.Originally Posted by Roman
I didn't say Sasuke was compassionate, I said that Sasuke can use compassionate advisors to make up for his lack of compassion just like Naruto can use intelligent advisors to make up for his lack of intelligence (I even used a god damn example in Suigetsu causing the world to see Sasuke as a true avenger). Then you decided to play up compassion to make up for Naruto's failings.Quote:
You're absolutely 100% wrong on this. Compassion is not more important than intelligence or strategy. The most I'll give you is that it's equally important, and that's a fucking massive courtesy.Quote:
Yeah, but he wanted revenge. He turned good again and once again probably won't kill unnecessarily. Even after training with Orochimaru, Sasuke refused to kill innocent people.Quote:
Lol, I'm not playing anything, bro. I'm just viewing something that this manga shows. You're just trying your damn hardest to make Sasuke look "great" in every aspect there is. Which is both ridiculous and wrong.
No, I'm not. People chose compassion, not intelligence, as I've said. I'll give you a massive courtesy of them being equal just because Hagoromo gave them both powers.
What do these manga facts have to do with Sasuke or Naruto's ability to lead? The literal only Hogake to ever have Ashura's influence was Hashirama, and he wasn't their greatest leader. The thread asks if Sasuke would be a better leader than Naruto if he learned compassion. You're campaigning for some other bullshit reason to avoid having to say "Yes."Originally Posted by Roman
What's your real motive here? Did I pick on Itachi too much? You haven't gotten over that yet?Quote:
People always choose compassion... that's not the point of the thread, and you know it. The question isn't "What will the people decide makes a better leader". It's asking our personal opinion on who makes a better leader: Sasuke with compassion, or Naruto. The fact that Sasuke's superior to Naruto at every aspect of leadership quality outside of compassion, and then GAINS compassion for the sake of the thread means Sasuke would be the superior choice. Only someone with malicious intent would choose Naruto as a superior leader with these stipulations, and that's what you're doing.Quote:
Easy. Try to stay mature, please. If you're trying to "fanboy" level me, trust me, no one's better at that than you are, if I would to stand on that level. But to return the favor, I do hope I'm not picking on Sasuke too much, in your eyes.
I agree. I argued only on your statement: The same could be said for Sasuke having advisors to make up for his lack of compassion. That's false and that's primarily on what I was focused. Sasuke would definitely be a better leader if he had compassion just as Naruto would be a better leader if he had intelligence.
Last edited by Roman; June 05, 2014 at 09:39 AM.
I would argue that if sasuke needs to "learn" compassion then he is to begin with unfit to be a leader. Compassion is a part of human nature to begin with, sasuke needing to learn it implies some pretty disturbing things. He has gone through some pretty traumatic crap through his life, and we should feel sorry for the kid, but if that jaded him that much then he is still unfit to be a leader.
Quite frankly the notion of sasuke as hokage still baffles me even at this stage. He changed to one of the good guys again but that does not change that he willingly joined a terrorist, murdered people he provoked into fighting, attempted to kidnap killerb and overall became himself an international terrorist. Hokage? It would be plenty optimistic already for him to get a pardon after saving the world.
Even if that was not a thing, the options would be between sasuke, who needs to "learn" compassion a basic trait of human nature, or naruto who thanks to his ancestry has superior ashura genes whose moral highground cannot be trampled by petty things like traumatic childhood abuse and neglect, unlike indra genes that are historically known to be prone to wildly uncontrollable emotions and hate-mongering. Within the context of the series it simply does not make sense for sasuke to be named hokage or even be considered for hokage. While sasuke was trying to murder everything naruto had long earned his spot at the top of the list. He defeated pain and in a worst case scenario his contribution to the current war has already been greater than sasukes. Sasuke technically just got there for crying out loud.
I don't think anyone here's questioning whether Sasuke is fit to be a leader in the manga as he is now. I'll remind you that the actual thread isn't asking that question. It's asking whether a Sasuke with compassion would be a superior leader to Naruto, who already knows compassion.Originally Posted by kkck
Would you say yes, or no?
Sasuke does have compassion though, even if he doesn't show it. Sane Sasuke does, anyway.
Sasuke did have compassion, which he put aside for revenge and power. He regained his compassion after spending time with Sakura and Naruto, goin as far as sacrificing himself to prevent Naruto's dreams from dying and even willing to sacrifice his life to save Sakura and Naruto. That all got thrown aside after Sasuke got beaten up by Sound 4 after getting over his jealousy at Naruto's astounding growth.
What does "sane Sasuke" even mean? He's not insane if he doesn't have compassion. He's just cold when it comes to emotions. He puts logic and reason above all else and that's fine in many aspects. But that's not enough. Naruto and Sasuke "complete" each other with their characteristics and power and that's why it would be ideal if they both could lead the country/world/village.
Sasuke has shown in his past to be both a kind person and a compassionate one. To argue against this is to argue against the facts that have been laid out by the manga.
Now, you could go on and argue that Sasuke won't revert to that. I would just point out that people doubted Sasuke would ever be "good" again and yet here he is.
Sasuke is human, and thus I feel as if compassion is an easy trait for him to discover once again once he is given a reason to be compassionate.
Currently, Sasuke is being a dick to two people who are quite frankly as useless as a third and forth testicle. The world is about to end, him being a dick to Kakashi and Sakura is completely and utterly irrelevant in terms of his ability to be compassionate to his possible future subjects and ninja if he is made Hokage.
As far as the OP goes, I don't think Sasuke needs to be "more compassionate" to be a better leader than Naruto, because he already is one.
The entire argument that "Naruto can be a leader, he just needs advisers" is all well and good, but it fails on a few points.
1) Adviser or not, public perception of a leader is important, and that perception is based on a number of things, most notably one's public speaking ability and communication ability. Naruto isn't exactly the guy you want giving The State of the Union. Kishi had to use the "chakra sharing/feeling sharing" plot device in order for Naruto to get his point across to everyone when fighting. And it was Gaara, not Naruto, acting as the person to truly unite the alliance. Naruto's way of doing things may be great, but he can't just beat people up to prove it all the time like he did with the Raikage. Naruto can't speak worth a lick, and isn't going to convince anyone his way of doing things is the best with his words any times soon.
On the flip side Sasuke is a very intelligent and well spoken. I find it hard to believe he couldn't give a speech like Gaara did.
2) Perception to other leaders. Any leader of another country, village, faction, etc. will want to talk to Naruto. And when they finally do, they will realize they are talking to an idiot. Nearly every person who speaks to Naruto see's him immediately as a complete and utter fool. This can't be fixed or covered by "advisers".
Everyone who meets Sasuke is immediatly impressed by him and his presence. He strikes you as an intelligent man who you shouldn't fuck with. That's what I'd want in my leader.
3) What if those advisers, umm die? Naruto's "cabinet" if you will would likely consist of Shikamaru, Kakashi, Sakura and Tsuande. Seeing as how they are all active ninja's, and given the track record of ninja's in this manga, the idea they will live throughout his tenure as Hokage is laughable. Or are we just supposed to believe no fighting, sickness, assassinations, etc will happen to these people? Come on now.
4) The big decisions are ultimately Naruto's and Naruto's alone. Despite how good the advice that Naruto receives is, he can ultimately choose to do the opposite. Naruto is not a wise man, he thinks with his heart, not his head. So to think he will always listen to someone like Shikamaru is laughable.
Just think of these two situations.
- Konoha has a valuable prisoner of war. The enemy is holding captive several genin Naruto knows. An offer is on the table to exchange them. What does Naruto do?
- Konoha is low on money. A man comes to Naruto offering a large sum so that Naruto's ninja can assassinate a foreign leader. The foreign leader is a good person, but his nation is worth no money, and he has nothing he can offer Konoha to defend him. Naruto either chooses to kill him and gain a huge reward, or he does nothing and his village continues to suffer economic hardships.
Naruto's shortsightedness and bleeding heart will cause him to make bad decisions. Meanwhile, Sasuke's deliberate and logical attitude will allow him to make good ones.
Sasuke can easily become compassionate, he most likely needs a woman (or a man) to break his outer shell and find that sweet little boy he used to be. Naruto on the other hand, isn't getting smarter anytime soon, nor will he ever get less dense.
1)2) I'm fairly certain most of the world is under the impression that Naruto is the Second Coming, and Sasuke probably should've been murdered in his sleep about three years ago.
3) Advisers die, you get new ones, same for any other position. This isn't exactly a new idea; the villages already have systems of advisers in place.
4) Yes, there are certain situations under which Sasuke's approach would likely lead to a superior outcome, there are also times that Naruto's compassion and attitude would be better for those that he leads. It depends, although the conclusion of this war is meant to lead to peace for the nations, a condition under which Naruto is probably the better option.
And for the record, it isn't 'easy' to become compassionate. This idea that he's going to find some woman, and then voila, is just strange, particularly considering his track record with the women in his life.
Last edited by Impossibility; June 06, 2014 at 06:12 AM.
I guess the flip side to this trending argument is that Knowledge can be obtained at any spare amount of time, Naruto could go back to school after this or some other form of teaching that develops his mind to be sharper. Naruto is not stupid, he's been shown from time to time to understand battle...to understand others feelings even without the Kyuubi (for example Sakura's false confession)...to put two and two together also. Kishimoto tends to downplay Naruto's current intelligence when someone of Sasuke or Kakashi's intelligence caliber enters his scenes...yet when he is on his own he's been doing quite well for himself. My point is that compassion is a lifelong lesson...something Naruto's been accustomed to since he defended Iruka as a child and proclaimed that he would be Hokage, protectorate, one day.
When it comes to Sasuke a lot of you have been talking about how Sasuke would have to have a different history to be on the same level of compassion as Naruto. I'm not trying to change his history....if anything tobirama's point about sharingan being a result of strong emotional-bond distress makes Sasuke's history more deserving of compassion.