Let's agree to disagree, not every adaption is/has to be 1:1, look at Finchers version of Millennium trilogy, it can be a different take on a certain medium. If you don't like it, no problem, it's your opinion but not mine.
Pain and the fight were intentionally drawn that way, I would like to see a kid draw animation like that. It's about conveying the fast movement of the fight and they have done it pretty good Imo. How do you think a face looks like being hit by 100+ mile/s fist!? Think rational for a second, how do you think if would look with ninja moving as fast as cars, feet would become a blur from all the movement. And yeah it's exegerated, but this is about people summoning rhinos and spill tons of water out of their mouths...
At least the last episodes look fantastic, nice farewell, even if it's just a temporary stop.
Last edited by Schabrak; March 02, 2012 at 10:41 AM.
Look back to the "Vally of the End fight" and you'll see sever examples of that free-flowing animation style done well, this was an example of it done as poorly as it can possibly be done.
Kinetic energy transfers from the fist to the head. They recipient's face never looks soft. The nose, teeth, jaw, and cheekbones continue to exist; even if they appear to be breaking, flexing, and pushing inward. I could show you a dozen examples just like it. Several from Naruto itself.
In the Naruto scene it's like somebody flicked a water-balloon shaped like Pain's head. It didn't convey much of a sense of impact, it just looked silly.
Just because fantastical things happen in the manga doesn't mean it's ok for the animator to suddenly switch to animating in such an absurd and low quality way.
You know what the worst part of that whole thing was, and the part the underscores my point about Studio Pierrot's fight filler, is that in the canon work Kyuubi-Naruto never lands a hit on Pain in Kyuubi mode. Not a single one!
In the manga Pain gets his shinra tensei deflected back into his face and he gets part of his robe burned off when the Kyuubi fires off a kyuubi-cero, but in the manga scene that part is supposed to be an adaptation of Kyuubi-Naruto isn't supposed to lay so much as finger on him.
Which is important because Deva Pain was never supposed to be unkillable, just hard to get to; because of Shinra Tensei. And that was supposed to be one of the big sources of tension for that fight. Sage Naruto killed the Chakra Absorbing Pain with a single punch to the face.
So most of those badly done scenes should never have been done in the first place.
Last edited by Jammin; March 02, 2012 at 09:22 PM.
I said I do not agree, you can post ten pages full of text and it wouldn't change my mind, there is no way you could convince me. People can't run as fast a the ninja in Naruto do or use jutsu so fantasy fiction can be depicted as the key animator in this case wants it to be. He created something original, something different and unusual.
You can't live with that style, I can. It's not your thing and it will likely not be animated like this again, because most Naruto anime watchers have the same opinion as you, but I don't fucking care.
edit: I don't see how that's low quality from deviating from the original, but that's your opinion, so it's okay.
Last edited by Schabrak; March 02, 2012 at 07:11 PM.
I'm pretty sure it'll be okay if one day everyone starts hating on your favourite series and everyone started hating on a hero, despite him being a good guy and all, despite it being the truth but then, the truth doesn't count, opinions does, so people don't see the objective truth and instead
"stfu, I don't care, haha its my opinion".
For your information, one of the reason forums exists is because people can post their opinion to get a better understanding of the overall picture and what other people thinks and
when most of the world is saying something is terrible, objectively, it is terrible, it is shit.Quote:
It doesn't matter however you praise it or so, the rest of the members will still think its terrible because the truth is it is terrible.
If you are going to say that you actually enjoyed that crap which most people did not, than at least put in the effort to rebut and say why when
Jammin brings up his points which made sense, instead of going
Quote:If a forum is a matter of people opinions to you that doesn't matter and it won't change your mind of crap still being crap, I wonder why you bother at all.Quote:
This is ridiculous. You don't bother to debate or try to convince people why your "awesome art" that you admire is good and what you're doing, felt like trolling or really childish.
Last edited by Pat; March 05, 2012 at 12:53 PM.
Wow, are you serious?! "When most of the world is saying something is terrible, objectively, it is terrible, it is shit," I mean, I personally agree that the art work in question is rather crappy, but I don't think anyone has the right to say what another thinks or believes is shit just because most people don't agree. The kind of robotic cold society where everyone agrees wholeheartedly is bullshit, no, its a nightmare. A forum is a place to discuss the topics we collectively find interesting, not a place to slander and ridicule each other. That being said, of course I agree that there is no point even entering a forum if you are not willing to fight for your believes with adequate reason and have open mind to accept the facts that crush them; but to go as far as to say what he thinks is shit, is too far. Cool your head. When Schabrak said "its not your thing", that was his argument; putting the facts of how a scull realistically flexes to a punch aside, he simply enjoys the art. Perhaps this seems odd to us, we who enjoy the realms of realism, but he simply likes what he likes and it can't be helped. "Naruto anime watchers have the same opinion as you, but I don't fucking care." If anything, this is his ascent and surrender to the gravity of our facts, but that regardless of them, he still likes his art, so leave him be. When one surrenders, why continue the war?
That being said, I imagine soon all our post will be deleted as we are so far off topic it is impossible for me to bullshit an argument for once.
Last edited by OtakuModeEngage; March 02, 2012 at 09:33 PM.
Did you read my previous posts? It seems like you didn't. I read through yours and what did I get out of it? Nothing persuasive. What brings me a recital of the things he sees as flaws, when I don't see those as such, I see those as the work of an powerful key-animator. I've mentioned that before, so why would I have to repeat myself? I won't debate because there is no reason to debate, if we have clearly different set opinions of what is okay and what is not. Jammin didn't convince me, as I won't be able to convince him in this argument, I just save the time for both of us. I would argue if it would give a benefit, do it in terms of plot and story, but this would be a lost case on both of us. Did I make myself clear enough?
P.S.: Did Naruto became the best manga ever released in the us for being the #1? Hell no!
P.S.S.: I really don't care what the majority thinks, look what it got us in the past, burning people and shitty music.
edit: I don't need to surrender, when there's no war to fight. I love good realisitic art too, so long live diversity! I'm quiet interested in reading your book recommendation though, feminists seem to hate it.
Last edited by Schabrak; March 02, 2012 at 09:44 PM.
Mod... I never thought I of all people would ask this, but please put a stop to this war about Naruto animation on this Bleach thread, and delete the resent personal post filled with ridicule that have no place on this or any thread; they can PM that BS.
This will prob get delete but I want to address a few things.
it's true that what one believes to be a masterpiece may be crap to another one but when everyone straight-out points and says the reasons for why it is a terrible piece of work.. you really have to stop and see why it's so bad. Instead of posting why you don't accept and replying to the reasons why , giving "I don't fucking care" is just plain rude .Quote:
It's much more constructive, despite this not being the right thread, to actually reply and state your opinion on why you believe it is good as opposed to people who don't, instead of "don't fucking care"...
I'm not saying that there's wrong in what sch's like. what I'm actually trying to say is that when people says that it's bad, and when the majority thinks so, disregarding all of that with something like thisis missing the entire point of the forum in the first place:Quote:
Quote:Let me repeat this, I'm not saying that what he likes is shit, yes I did post it in a way that seems that way but really,Quote:
when alot of people are referring to something as "bad" and "terrible", objectively it is view as such. Do you start reading something when most of the world says its bad? I don't think people usually does.
I used the word objectively, which means realistically. I'm not saying its completely terrible, I'm just saying its known to be one of the worse episodes yet and nothing will change.
I agree that saying it is "shit" is going too far and its my bad.. but it still doesn't change the truth that is it bad.
What I'm saying is that what he likes is bad objectively and him saying that ten pages of post won't convince him is like stepping on people who actually puts out critical points on why the episode was so bad.
No, the entire reason I'm still posting here was because Jammin responded to Sch's comments about the episode, one of the examples is the punch and 100 m/s , it's not realistic and he believes it to be so. He didn't post it in a way that seems to be like he enjoyed it for the art, Jammin's reply was on the mark on what was wrong about sch's post and it wasn't his opinion, it was the truth. That wasn't how the face should look like after a punch of 100m/s and not how legs should look like when moving like roadrunner.Quote:
The reason why I actually posted a reply to him was because of how he completely disregarded Jammin's post and went "I don't fucking care" on him.
It leaves a bad taste and made me feel like, wow, I can do that to anyone in this place if I want to whenever they disagree with me.
You guys are right that things are going off topic and I've gone too far but if I don't post what I think, I won't be satisfied.
It isn't a fight, it's a discussion, or at least it's supposed to be, but you seem to be getting a little upset here so I think this will be my last post on this subject for the foreseeable future.(it's only a cartoon after all....)
I was making a point about a specific characteristic of Bleach's animation studio, Studio Pierrot, (which is topic relevant) by bringing up a rather famous example of the kind of thing I was talking about. Something that I believe may make this cancellation something Bleach fans might be grateful for in the long haul.
Now I did my best to back up everything I said with both my reasons for thinking what I do along specific examples and addressed each in a manner which was, I hope, clear and specific. Which was intended to bring you a little closer to understanding why I think what I do, whether or not you agree with it.
I was, and am, genuinely surprised that you thought that animation was good and truth be told I'm no closer to understanding why that is now than when the conversation started. But it seems clear this is conversation is not going any place good so I'm just going to drop the subject.
Last edited by Jammin; March 02, 2012 at 10:20 PM.
I may was angered by Zeltrax for the idiocy that came at first and for which he apologized.
Last edited by Schabrak; March 02, 2012 at 10:31 PM. Reason: header, editing
Last edited by OtakuModeEngage; March 03, 2012 at 12:41 AM.
I moved all the off-topic posts from Bleach TV Anime Ending on March 27 thread. Please post your opinions about Bleach fillers in this thread.
Please don't ignore the previous post before you answer to this.
Don't exegerate what I wrote! Would it make you happier if there stood "I don't
fuckingcare", because I don't care that you hate that style and I feel no need to defend my position aside from what I wrote. What would I get out of answering to point one to six, when they state the same?
The whole scenes are so out of order, that I can't order them into the manga or it's just an effect of the anime direction, so it would be nice if you could provide detail like chapter and page to compare.
- 6. It's not like in the manga, it's like in that western cartoon, to unserious for an important scene.
-> Does looking less realistic, less as in the manga make it less impactful? To each his own, I have no problem.
- 5. It's an amorphous blob, not a real skull.
-> It suit the rest of the animation style used in the episode. To each his own, I have no problem.
- 4. There are so many things wrong with this scene, you won't name one.
-> So it's not the same fight we have seen in the manga, big problem, it was awesome to me too in it's 0wn way.
- 3. He doesn't look like the Yahiko-Pain I like. Is it suppoesed to be this scene?
-> That's not a big of a surpise after the rest of the episode. They chose a different angle and a tense face, I don't see the problem.
- 2. It's looks like it's drawn by a child.
-> Directors or key animators choice to make it look morphic, fitting into the rest of the animation.
- 1. This is not canon and doesn't make sense.
-> It sure is not, it's over the top as the rest of the episode. Yahiko-Pain is not suppossed to have an indestructible immortal body and the crack is not big enough, but it's not trying to be realistic as the rest of the clips has already shown. All in all they did show emotions on his face, was that a big flaw for you too? Because it did not step out of line with the rest of the episode.
I chose to defend the episode, even when I was averted at my first time seeing it. I have no intention of claiming this to be the best animation ever, not by far, but because of the bashing and ignorance and lack of admission/confession/concession towards the studios approach. You hate it for a things it wasn't supposed to be, but what I wished or thought it would be. It was a suprise, for sure, but one I can live with and you seemingly can't. And to close the circle: I don't care if you hate if for the reasons you do. It was exaggerated, not in the same style as the rest ofthe series, not a perfect transition from the original manga source, but I enjoy that too.
And don't worry I keep my diction in mind, it's the rest that has to stop judging things with an unilateral view.
additional stuff: I never wrote that this scene mirrors realismus that it rather tries to "convey the fast movement", don't twist it up to your liking, totally love how you ignore the "And yeah it's exegerated" afterwards. Here are a couple of slowmo punches.
It's time decide: So is it shit, terrible or both and is it those things for you or for most[got to love generalizations]? Don't backpedal, but state your clear and genuine opinion.Originally Posted by Zeltrax
I build my subjective opinion after watching 800+ different series/ova/movies, it's not better or worse than any others, but it's mine. You can tell me your opinion, but not how one should feel about it, because my personal enjoyment [or not] is entirely mine alone.
edit: You did even post me a picture of how a face punch should look like, but look how Brook is running. Could it be the same as Pain did?
Last edited by Schabrak; March 07, 2012 at 09:22 AM. Reason: 2 words missing
I think Bleach has BY FAR the best fillers of any anime....Naruto fillers are utter garbage...The fillers usually always have a good story, interesting characters, nice pace and excellent battles...Their placement is a bit retarded at times but what can they do? Let the anime catch up to the manga and stop the anime all together??? No i think not....People remember the fillers are there ONLY TO CREATE SPACE BETWEEN THE ANIME AND THE MANGA....Nothing more, nothing less....The story is totally irrelevant as its not canon and does not make a difference or affect the overall plot in no shape or form...So while i was pissed at the New Captain filler Arc's placement as well as the Zanpaktou rebellion Arc, the actual filler was pretty damn good...Good plot, nice characters, EPIC battles..... Dont forget some of the best fights in Bleach come from fillers. (Ichigo v Kariya, Ishida v the Bounto girl, Byakuya v Kariya, Ichigo vs Amagai, Byakuya and Senbonzakura v Renji and Zabimaru, Ichigo v Zangetsu, Byakuya v Kouga, Ichigo v Kageroza 1, Ichigo v Kageroza 3, Reigai Soifon v Komamura, Reigai Captains v Real Captains etc etc etc.......) In conclusion the placement and plot maybe off at times but it only there to create space between anime and manga....Nothing else and Bleach achieves this in the most entertaining way of all anime by a mile besides Samurai X.....
I agree with vizardichigo. Bleach has the best filler out of the 3. I would even go as far as to say that it is the best anime out of the 3. I mean yes the other 2 are better in the manga(depends on your opinion of course) but bleach's anime is a work of art. Consistent animation. Great voice acting. Added filler in canon events doesn't take away from the overall moment but rather enhances it. The filler is much much much better than the others. Lol even the openings are great. The only time i have a problem with the anime is when its at a boring part of the story(which is the kubo's fault) or when they throw in a random filler. But hey what are you gonna do? The hueco mundo arc went on for 5 years. What was the anime supposed to do. Nel's random adventures? Whats up with Orihime? Chad stays relevent by destroying fodder hollow? Mayuri Kurotsuchi's weird and crazy science? Name that Kenpachi victim? They had no choice but to throw in a random filler arc and i must say they did a brilliant job with the Zanpakto and Kageroza arcs. Im happy that this has been cleared up and bleach is no longer getting cancelled but rather moved to a different time slot. I do find it ridiculous that this was even an issue considering just a few months ago naruto was fighting pirates and ghost....and struggled against them. Oh wellz..
EDIT: I guess i spoke too soon...R.I.P bleach I will try to remain a loyal fanboy week after week...
Last edited by NinjaStar; March 16, 2012 at 01:40 PM.