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Personally, I think that Nishi probably cleared several times before his death, because:
1. Nishi had been a Gantz member for over a year before Kei arrived. Oku (the author) stated in the afterword to the 7th book that there had always been a mission every 12 days until the timing changed after the Tanaka mission. Nishi had survived at least 30 missions. He said that "Nishi died just before receiving 100 points", but the statement was ambiguous because he hadn't yet revealed that there were more options besides freedom when a player receives 100 points.
2. Nishi loves to see things die. Chapter 28, page 12 shows that he gets a "boner" from killing a cat, and is powering up his weapon while thinking that he needs to kill something bigger, which means he is planning to kill the kids who found the cat, when the Gantz mission signal surprises him and he walks away, ominously saying "Tonight".
3. At the end of the first mission, Nishi was surprised that so many people survived; he said that it had been a long time since anybody lived. That meant that he probably cleared at least 5 or 6 missions in a row all by himself. If he had just let the timers run out, Gantz would have killed him, just like he threatened to kill Kei after he let a timer run out.
4. At the beginning, Nishi did have a custom suit. He just pressed a button to cycle through several weapons before the first mission. Kei noticed the big rifle appearing in his hand mid-transfer before the mission began. http://www.onemanga.com/Gantz/5/03/
He also used it to get the pistol to shoot the thug who had just shot him before the Tanaka mission.
He was evidently trying to get the suit to work when he jumped into the sewer. The title of the issue was even "partial functionality".
5. At the end of the first hunt, Nishi captured the big onion alien easily, and was willing to give Kei the points. He didn't care about getting to 100 points faster, especially when he was so close to having 100, or he wouldn't have done that. He also thought that Kei was a natural born killer like him; he described how much that he enjoyed killing things, and seeing dead things.
Nishi does have a little humanity left, though. Not much, but more than some people give him credit for.
1. Nishi did tell the first group some useful information. They were all going to just go home, which would have meant that Gantz would have killed them as soon as they left the fight zone. When Nishi told them that it was a TV show and they could win 10 million yen, he gave them an incentive to stay within the area. He told them what they needed to do, that they needed to capture or kill the alien. They wouldn't have believed the truth, so he told them a plausible lie, but it did give them a better chance to live than they would have had otherwise.
He also warned Kei and Katou not to tell anybody about Gantz.
2. If you look at the fight with the vampires, Nishi and Izumi both turned invisible simultaneously, and their moves were perfectly timed; he can be a team player.
Notice that they hit the vampires simultaneously. The next page shows the corresponding vampire body parts flying off at the same time, despite the pistol's delay. By the way, why doesn't Nishi use a sword? He obviously knew about them from the start, and they are great for short-range combat.
3. After they killed the first two vampires and he told Izumi that it wasn't his fight and Izumi could deal with them, and Izumi said that's what he intended, Nishi didn't leave; he just laid down on the floor in the middle of the aisle. It looks like he's even fluffing up a pillow behind his head. If he had thought that there was any chance that Izumi couldn't handle the vampires, it would have made sense for him to have at least stealthed or walked out the door instead of getting ready to take a nap. He knew exactly what Izumi was going to do and was just getting out of the way.
If Izumi had gotten into real trouble, Nishi would have been able to re-join the fight.
4. Nishi does care a little about Izumi; he did try to warn the team that Izumi needed help. http://www.onemanga.com/Gantz/231/08/ He just warned the wrong team member.
5. Nishi and Izumi both used the new players as bait, used stealth and wore their suits all the time. They seemed to be used to fighting together as a team. From the similarities between them, Nishi could have been Izumi's mentor at one time.
Nishi loves the hunt, and especially the kill.
He's a cruel bastard, too, though.
Nishi is the closest thing to a purely evil character in the whole manga. He is a natural born killer, a sociopath who gets his kicks out of hunting, stalking his prey, and seeing sentient beings tortured and dead, and is generally pretty much universally hated. However, he isn't a coward. His death scene was meant to show that even the most hardened and bloodthirsty warrior will cry out for his mother and feel fear at the moment of death.
Last edited by georgemarvin; November 09, 2008 at 03:25 PM.
Good Job. o_o
I shall edit this once I get home into a post.
whatever mission izumi got 100 in, there were three other known survivors. nishi was not among those shown from his perspective, suggesting that nishi probably wasn't the only one out of his sight. here's a pic:
since kurono got his required points in the jurassic mission, we have no way of knowing whether or not gantz's "new rule" was a real threat.
that's a rifle, mate. check out the bottom right panel:
i already brought up the fact that there are probably several y-guns during the first mission in another thread, but there is proof. one of the cover pages from a long time ago (don't remember the chap) had all the weapons laid out on the floor. there are three y-guns on that page. ok, this took too long to find:
can't use them as cannon fodder if they all blow their heads up trying to leave the area.
he was on the floor cause he knew izumi was gonna cut the train in half, starting with his end. it would be pretty foolish of him to do anything but lay down under such circumstances, especially since he would have been the first to get cut. he was just waiting for the fight to move before leaving and calling cherry.
nishi didn't warn the wrong hunter; cherry warned the wrong hunter.
izumi never really used anyone as bait, unless you count the tae mission. he'd go off on his own and actually fight aliens, while nishi would hover around the team and wait for their targets to leave themselves unguarded.
Last edited by kaliayev; August 20, 2008 at 04:07 PM.
Nishi is a little sadist, but that doesn't mean he isn't a coward.
Nishi never cleared even once. Before dying in the game, he was crying to his mamma that it was almost finished and he wanted to get out of there. Also he didn't possess the H-Gun, which is also a sign that he didn't get a 100 yet.
His score was 92 points.
It's easy to survive while not making a lot of points, Inaba is living example.When Kei was threatened by the monolith, it was because he took a shot of the x-gun @ the monolith. It was "revenge" and also considering the fact that he had to do the mission alone and he "bailed out" from the last Chibi.
Yeah, Izumi remembered that he had gotten 100 points then. But that doesn't mean that's the mission that he went home after. He could very well have gotten 100 points multiple times before he decided to go home instead of taking the powerful item. Remember that he took the weapon at the end of the Oni mission.Quote:
From everything we know about Gantz from the bombs in the heads to the way he treats the team, there are plenty of reasons to believe he was telling the truth, and none to think it was a bluff.Quote:
4. Yeah, it's a rifle. But the point remains: he can push a button and a big rifle appears in his hands, mid-transfer. No other suit can do that.
5. The covers aren't really part of the story. The fact that the cover is a drawing of the floor filled with weapons of every type doesn't mean that there are several Y-guns in the Tokyo Gantz room. It's just a neat drawing of an arsenal of weapons.
Why not count the Tae mission? But there are plenty of other examples of how much Izumi cares about the newbie Gantzers:Quote:
Here are some other examples of how much the other popular Gantz veterans think about the newbs and general public:
In this one, Kei wants the Old Man to drive around in circles in a heavily populated area, causing dozens of deaths just to get a shot at the T-rexes. When the Old Man tells him that people will die, he just says "I don't care".
In this one, Reika decided not to help the civilians who were dying, and everybody except Katou agreed with her.
In this one, notice that NOBODY, not even goody-two-shoes Katou, bothered to warn either the vampires or the newbs that their heads would explode if they left the area.
In the first mission, Nishi did at least tell the newbs a few things that could help them. Before Nishi could warn the newbs about anything before the second mission, one of them shot him; he had to leave in a hurry. Without Nishi to give them the "10 million yen if you capture the alien" speech, neither Kei nor Kurono bothered to tell them that they couldn't leave the area, or that they had to try to capture the enemy. Result: heads a'popping all over.
Everybody can agree that Inaba is a coward. In Nishi's case, though, people seem to confuse strategy with cowardice. Nishi was holding a weapon on the Tanaka but instead of shooting, he jumped into a sewer, and the Tanaka followed. He wasn't asking for help; at that time, his suit would change weapons when he clicked a button on the control. It appeared that he was trying to use the control to change weapons; when it didn't work, he warned the Tanaka that he would kill it instead of just shooting.Quote:
If you look at the next few pages, he put up a good fight.
He didn't ask for help until his suit, for no good reason, failed completely after he had hit the Tanaka. He was just standing there at the time; it's the only time a suit just quit without taking a hit first. There's also the unexplained sound when the suit quit. One explanation for the sudden failure of the suit that would make sense is that one of the thugs shot him from the railing. After all, he had just killed their friend and they wanted him dead. They all had pistols and his back was turned to them.
Somebody without a suit or a gun, facing even a minor enemy, could be expected to ask for help. And Nishi did.
Not the way I would have phrased it if I was begging for somebody to save my life, but then again nobody ever said Nishi had people skills.
While Reika and the rest of the Tokyo team were hiding out, Nishi was actively hunting Nurarihyon. And he almost got him. He probably got the monster that squished Knob-yan, too. His stealth tactics aren't as heroic as Kaze's reckless fistfights, but they are much more effective.
Nishi isn't a hero, but he's an effective hunter. He does use the newbs for cannon fodder, but so has every general in every army since recorded history began. That's what they are there for. The survivors might make good warriors. But the first battle is a test; if they die, they failed.
awww kali beat me to most of the points, but yea as much as I like nishi he is a coward. Then again we've only seen him in 2 missions (Im not counting tanaka cuz he died at that one). I wish he would've lived to fight kannon though that would of been interesting. Also as much as nishi told the first group he couldve told them alot more that would've helped, people might have actually survived the buddha hunt if they knew that if time ran out they would just go back to zero points.
[Edited in responses]
Everything about nishi helping the new hunters out can be seen as both kindness and cowardness. He could of just told em so they would make decent bait and the enemy would expose their weakness(In fact I think that is why if i remember correctly).
Btw maybe all suits have the potential to switch between weapons, maybe the hunters just dont utilize them.
I have 2 questions right now.
Firstly yes I too think that it might've been nishi who killed tengu yet at the same time lag would also play an important role.
Secondly, if nishi was truly on izumi's team then he would know of the bike and sword yet he never used them. Im sure he couldve easily taken out the takana with the sword. In reality it was probably just revealed to advance the plot but in the gantz universe it doesnt make sense.
Oh and lastly yes tokyo team were all a bunch of cowards this time, except sakata. But I think sakata is the one who actually figured out the main point, that you cant beat gantz.
Last edited by Masterchief; August 21, 2008 at 01:01 AM.
i try to stay objective and critique only your evidence, but you still get mad at me.
1. izumi would have referred to himself as a multiple clearer if that were the case. there were several occasions in which he referred to his skills as something a 100 point clearer was capable of, not as something a 200 or 300 point clearer was capable of. still, he was pretty full of himself when it came to his clear count so it would have been fun to see his reaction to osaka's top hunters.
4. i wasn't contesting your point about the suit, which may have been the normal suit anyway (he could have just figured out more advanced options). i was only pointing out that he wasn't carrying a bfg. of course, now i am contesting the suit, so whatever. we've seen that oku can change rules and what not later on. that little beep may have been a simple mistake in the early stage of developing the finer points of gantz.
5. according to you, those occasionally informative, on anything besides the female body and how gantz suits can be cut up to make nifty fashion statements, covers don't count for anything. sigh, i guess those early pics of reika, before she was introduced as a character, and izumi in suits didn't mean anything either. personally, i'd call the cover page of those weapons more clearcut than what you've used as evidence. since you don't believe the cover, i'll go ahead and refer you to my other post on the matter:
5. i don't count the tae mission because the identity of the target formally pitted the hunters against one another. izumi was primarily trying to rally the hunters to his side in order to prevent kurono from interfering with the mission. he used "bait" against hunters, not aliens. besides, they weren't quite bait since izumi was actively involved in a team effort against kurono and anyone who stood on the side of morality. besides nishi, i think the only other hunter who ever really used other hunters as bait against aliens was one of the biker punks (ironic, don't you think?).
p.s. i don't see what the problematic ethical aspects of the decisions of the other hunters have to do with nishi's morality. two wrongs don't make a right.
Last edited by kaliayev; August 21, 2008 at 03:00 AM.
??? I thought I was just answering your arguments. Didn't know any of my replies sounded angry.Quote:
Anyway, here are my replies to your replies.
Izumi barely remembered that one scene when the ball showed 100. He didn't remember much about Gantz, just a few hazy images and a feeling. He didn't remember Nishi at all, and didn't remember HS, even though they had fought before. He didn't even remember the vampires in general, even though they are Gantz's arch-enemy and evidently a recurring problem. Just look at Izumi's character; he loves the thrill of combat too much to quit unless something really traumatic happened.Quote:
I accidentally said H-rifle instead of rifle. I fixed it in my post. The point was that the big rifle, pistol and y-gun would all just appear in his hands after he touched a button. Before the second hunt, he accidentally left the Y-gun lying on the floor when he killed the punk and told Gantz to teleport him first, so it was no longer in his arsenal. He may have been trying to get the control to cycle to the y-gun when he jumped into the sewer. He could have killed the Tanaka any time when he was stealthing and following it. Instead, he even warned it before shooting when it followed him into the sewer and he was trying to get the control to work. He didn't need the sword; the pistol would have been sufficient.Quote:
5. You're making my point: the Gantz covers aren't part of the current storyline. They can be anything from the past or future. I think one early one even had a drawing of an H-gun. The fact that the cover had more than one y-gun on it doesn't mean that the current room has more than one in it. If a cover shows a bunch of weapons that haven't been introduced yet, it doesn't mean anything to the current story line. The fact that a cover has Kishimoto on it 50 issues after she died doesn't mean that she will be in that issue, any more than a cover with three y-guns or an H-gun on it means that they are currently in the room. The covers aren't useless. They are great for foreshadowing and looking back but they aren't part of the current story.
In response to your other post about the Y-gun:
Chapter 5, page 2 the top panel shows one Y-gun on the floor. The bottom panel shows it in Katou's hand. There isn't one on the floor for the rest of the issue after that panel. Katou carries the y-gun from the bottom panel of issue 5, page 2 until he drops it.
If the Y-gun was a reward weapon, and Nishi was watching Katou the whole time, wouldn't it make sense that he would pick it up when Katou dropped it? A weapon that's especially useful against powerful boss monsters that are tough to kill but easy to send would be worth retrieving.
Nishi wouldn't have to "hunt for it". He was watching the whole fight from stealth. All he had to do was walk over and pick it up, like he did with the H-gun during this last hunt.Quote:
Actually, that one does make perfect sense. You just have to think like a hunter.Quote:
Before he died, we only saw Nishi on two hunts against small game.
I have a 4-wheeler, a 12 gauge shotgun, a .30-06 deer rifle, a 9 mm pistol, a .22 rifle and several other guns, as well as several assorted knives for various purposes, and a hunting bow. I will definitely leave all of that stuff except the .22 at home if I go hunting rabbits or squirrels. On the other hand, if I am hunting a deer on my own land, I will carry the bow, a few arrows and a skinning knife for field dressing; everything else stays home. I'll take the pistol if I'm hunting a rattlesnake to make a hatband or belt. If I am going to South Georgia into a big forest, I will take the 4-wheeler, the pistol in case of rattlesnakes and the deer rifle for the intended game, as well as an assortment of knives and a hatchet. I'll also carry a first aid kit and take a thermos of coffee and some beef jerky.
The fact is, only a fool or a rank amateur is going to load himself down with a crapload of stuff he doesn't need for a small-game hunt. Likewise, the same seasoned hunter will take the big guns when he thinks they may be necessary. Nishi had no reason to use the bike against the lowly onion alien and Tanaka, any more than I would need a 4-wheeler and shotgun to kill a rabbit. The bike would have just alerted that quarry that he was there, and just about any weapon in the entire arsenal was good enough to kill the low-level game. As for the sword, it may have been Izumi's weapon of choice, and Nishi has used one at least once, against the vampires in the subway, but it isn't for everybody. In fact, it's one of the least useful weapons in the arsenal. Like a .22 rifle or a hatchet, it's a situational weapon.
If you look at this last hunt, Nishi definitely knew about the bike, but he didn't use it. He's about like a hunter who prefers the stalk rather than using a tree stand. Like a hunter who stays downwind from the quarry, covers his scent, and wears camouflage to sneak up on the prey, Nishi uses the suit's stealth features to get close to his prey. Believe me, it's a lot harder than you would think to sneak up on a deer till you're close enough to kill it with a bow and arrow. Nishi gets that same rush. Going in with guns blasting is for the Sunday hunters, not the people who live for the game.
Last edited by georgemarvin; August 21, 2008 at 03:34 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
if izumi has the wherewithal to know which room opens up, which is something no hunter tried during his interim phase (in hindsight, it is safe to assume that nishi left that room closed in order to keep the noobs from finding the more powerful equipment), he can remember what his score was when he left (pretty freaking hilarious that he got exactly 100 points).
i'd say that the visual of his points and a few of the other hunters was the clearest memory he had from gantz. there' a clear difference between that image and something like nishi's face. it was an important event to him and he was in the same room where it happened, so he was able to remember it. same kinda thing happened with tae when she was in kurono's apartment. if you were busy fighting a horde of aliens by yourself, while some punk just hid in the shadows without doing anything, would you remember said punk after gantz blocked some neural pathways? besides, izumi's memories are fairly egoistical in the first place. in the tae mission, he didn't remember that cherry and sakata were psychics, even though he encountered them in shinjuku. jebus, he probably doesn't even remember who inaba is half the time. people he considers small fries don't concern him, and it is probable that nishi was a small fry when izumi left. however, because it was an important event in the advancement of his self-interest, what we saw at the start of the jurassic mission stood out in his mind.
maybe izumi never actually met host-samurai. there has been an occasion where the vamps have just stood at the sidelines as spectators. at the lecture akira went to, the vamps also had pics of several hunters, besides izumi, that weren't a part of the current tokyo team. it could be that host-samurai only ever saw a picture of the legend. it's also possible that the vamps didn't get involved in things until izumi's last mission, so he didn't remember them as clearly. or, if we go with the injury theory, maybe a random alien injured him right before he met host-samurai.
you mind checking on this translation:
for him to have remembered either of these two, assuming they made a strong enough impact on him in the first place, he'd probably have to back to where he his strongest memories of them occurred in order to play some visual sequences out in his head.
again, there are at least two y-guns. if it was a reward weapon, there would be only one:
since oku went through the trouble of showing us three y-guns, with the arsenal racks emptied, on a cover instead of showing us some random half-naked manga chick, i'm pretty sure he meant to communicate that there are three y-guns available to the hunters.
p.s. arrrgh, why am i getting dragged into a thread that i'm not that interested in?
Last edited by kaliayev; August 21, 2008 at 07:25 PM.
Well, people's basic personalities usually don't change much. He may act a little differently with his memories than without them, but most of the dominant traits will still be there.Quote:
The truth is, Izumi's memory is just swiss cheese, the muddled goop that's left over after a sloppy, ham-handed attempt at doing a partial memory wipe by Gantz. He has a few fuzzy memories, but they aren't necessarily what he wanted to save, just whatever that Gantz didn't manage to totally delete. We can't tell from the scraps of memory that he has left whether he completed once and left or if he went for the powerful weapon several times before he left. It's likely that the original Izumi left after something truly traumatic, not just because he reached 100 points. He is by nature a competitor. That wouldn't change even if Gantz wiped out every memory he ever had. He has strong emotional ties to the Gantz room, too. Gantz can't erase those, either.
We do know that he remembers one hunt. He chose the same location to start the massacre that would send him back to the room.
We also know that he remembers hitting 100 points, probably the first time, maybe the only time. It would be a special moment that would be hard to erase.
Kei and Tae also got the swiss cheese treatment from Gantz. He could erase most of their memories but not their basic personalities and emotions.
Point conceded. I hadn't noticed that panel. Looks like there are two Y-guns. Nishi has one Y-gun in his hand, the other one is on the floor.Quote:
About reward weapons: There is no reason why there couldn't be multiples of the reward weapons in the arsenal room. The H-guns may not be a 1st time reward, but the three sadists who had only completed once had them. It's likely that when the team ever thinks to look in the arsenal room, they will find Izumi's new reward weapon and they might even find some other reward stuff lying around.
Same reason as me: you're bored and it's still a LONG time before the new issue comes out.Quote:
Yeah, Gat, how about it? A new translation of 159/12 would be great. That's one of those dialogues that just doesn't quite look right as-is. Several issues in that range have some dubious translations.Quote:
ok, we're clearly not gonna agree on this and this is the nishi thread, so i'm done talking about izumi's memory loss.
about reward weapons:
i'm under the impression that gantz treats the reward weapons like he does the suits (in terms of cycling, not one size fits one). he'll keep your size in stock if you left it there. if you die and someone takes what used to be your slot, the new member starts with a fresh suit. since he doesn't get your suit, he doesn't get your weapons either. if you get revived, you might get your stuff back. of course, we won't know if either of us is right unless we see the osakan room again.
That translation is just fine.
ok, wording still seems a little odd, but what can we do?
ok, may finally be able to clear up this custom suit business. it doesn't appear that nishi has a custom suit. based on these sketches, there is another button on the radar tool:
as you can see, there is a button where the radar attaches to the wrist. in the page you pointed out to us, nishi appears to be applying pressure to the area where the button would be. this shows that nishi had better knowledge about the equipment, but it also proves that his suit isn't special. kudos on discovering the feature in the first place, as it does present an interesting amount of flexibility for the hunters (well, for nishi at least). also, nishi may be able to incorporate the bfg into his weapon cycle in the future.
Last edited by kaliayev; August 22, 2008 at 02:35 AM.