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He tied Sasuke up and gave him a thorough talking-to. What more could he do? He can't be blamed for not being aware that the Sound 4 were there.Quote:
In relation to this I really hate how some fans criticize the teachers in Naruto, going so far as to even make fanfics that bash them or point out these supposed flaws. Some ridicule Kakashi for teaching his team nothing but tree climbing, expecting him to have taught them a number of various jutsus.
However, this ignores the fact that as far as I can tell NONE of the teachers in Konoha teach like this. Most students just learn jutsus that their clan uses, getting pointers and perhaps a new jutsu from their teacher.
Really, the teachers for rookie teams in Konoha seem to focus more on teaching their teams how to work together and use what they already have more effectively rather than focusing mostly on gaining entirely new skills. This makes sense when one considers that unless you're a genius (or have Naruto's method) element training (which is the basis of most non-clan affiliated jutsus) normally takes a few years and thus would be left largely to the student to learn on their own.
Kakashi never taught Sasuke to use his sharingan better, all he did was teach an assassination technique to a person focused on revenge. Not a smart move in my opinion.
Perhaps i'm not being fair to Kakashi laying so much blame on him, but people give far to much credit to his abilities as a teacher. He managed to offer Sasuke strength without being sure he knew when and why to use it. While sending Naruto off to learn from Ebitsu not Jiraiya, Naruto found him all on his own during the chunnin exam, and wasn't shown teaching Sakura much at all.
In my eyes there are parallels between the Sandiame's mistakes involving Orochimaru and Kakashi's mistakes involving Sasuke. And just like Jiraiya spent years trying to clean up that mess, Naruto has been doing the same.
As for Tsunade dying, i highly doubt that will happen in the near future. She might come close when Pain finally gets to Konoha, but i'm confident Naruto will save the day. He's running out of those close to him, after all. On the off chance she did die i still think Kakashi is a poor choice as a teacher for her. I think a better option would be the introduction of a new character to teach her.
Last edited by Jammin; September 09, 2008 at 05:15 PM.
Part of the problem with this debate is that we have no clue as to what went on post Wave/pre chuunin or in the, what I assume are, months from the bell test to Wave. I personally believe that Kakashi is a good teacher, perhaps not the best, but still good. All of the Jounin senseis seem at the very least competent. I mean Naruto would love Kakashi no matter what for recognizing him, but Sakura would be a little pickier and still holds him in very high regard.
He ultimately didn't have alot of time to train anyone other than Sasuke because of the way events happened. Shortly after the chuunin exams both Sakura and Naruto got Sannin teachers.
I think the teachers are demonized unnecessarily because everyone thinks that particular student should be more powerful or more experienced. Remember everyone, that the Konoha 11 and Sasuke were taking on Jounin and Chuunin as Genin and COMING OUT ON TOP! Their teachers as well as natural abilities came into play.
The purpose though was the need for a piercing technique. There was nothing else that could give Sasuke a good chance of getting past Gaara's defenses as he lacked Lee's physical power via the gates and Naruto's chakra reserves for mass pummeling.Quote:
If that one flashback is any indication he seems to have talked with Sasuke quite a bit about his desire for vengeance even then, and that was before Sasuke showed any signs of being willing to leave or betray the village and his friends.Quote:
On that note it should be reemphasized that when he taught Sasuke Chidori the boy had not shown any sign he would use it against his comrades.
Here's where we majorly disagree. To me it seemed pretty obvious once that flashback was shown of Jiraiya and Kakashi meeting (the flashback showed a time before Kakashi left to train Sasuke as Kakashi refers to how he will be teaching Sasuke) that Kakashi and Jiraiya had PLANNED that seemingly unexpected meeting with Naruto ALL ALONG.Quote:
Basically Ebisu was meant to just show Naruto a few pointers about basic chakra usage before Jiraiya took over, not that Ebisu knew that.
And yet obviously found the time to do so at some point before the chunin exams (the genjutsu dispelling). Given Sakura was not in the final stage he had no reason to teach her when Sasuke's life was on the line.Quote:
I don't want to give the wrong impression here. It's not my intent to bash Kakashi. I like him, however one of the founding principles of all the martial arts that i studied were that the teacher is responsible for the actions of his students. He taught a very dangerous technique to someone he knew to be a very unstable person.
I think Kakashi chose to teach chidori to Sasuke because he had hoped that he would rely on that power instead of the cursed seal. Being fully aware of Sasuke's driving desire for more power and reliance on arrogance to give him confidence, he should have known what would happen as soon as Sasuke began to doubt himself. Instead of addressing the core of that problem, his desire for revenge, he fed Sasuke's hunger for power. By the time he tried to deal with the deeper problem it was too late.
As for him knowing Naruto would find Jiriaya and force the pervy hermit to teach him, i highly doubt it. Correct me if i'm wrong but i don't remember a single thing indicating that was the case either.
I'm not saying Kakashi is at fault for all that has happened with Sasuke. Just that his skill as a teacher is somewhat overrated. Though his students have made great progress under him, I credit much of that progress to the quality of the students he was teaching not his skill as a teacher. None who have taught Naruto or Sasuke haven't been impressed with their speed at learning things.
Last edited by Jammin; September 10, 2008 at 12:01 PM.
I have to agree that the quality of his students definitely helped him come off as a better teacher, but I think his teaching ability had just as much to do with it: he was a good teacher. Now, that's not to say he hasn't made mistakes, i.e. chidori. But even Jiraiya made that mistake with Naruto: Naruto used his Rasengan against Sasuke the same as Sasuke used the Chidori against Naruto. And I would definitely consider Jiraiya a good teacher. Of course, they both had good reasons to teach their students such dangerous techniques, and the fact that both used their techniques against a comrade could just as easily show the lack of quality in their respective students.
I think one of the main reasons Kakashi gets bashed as a teacher is that they don't really show what he taught his team throughout the manga. For example, they never showed him teaching his team about genjutsu and how to dispel it. The author really doesn't have time to show every little thing taught to his main characters, so they only show the important training: i.e. learning rasengan, chidori, senjutsu, fuuton rasengan, summoning, etc. etc.
Another reason is that they mostly showed him training Sasuke, and even then that makes perfect sense. I don't think he could teach Sakura genjutsu because he doesn't really specialize in it, and most of his genjutsu he probably uses his eye for anyway. He doesn't really know medic jutsu so he couldn't really teach her that either. As for Naruto, he didn't really have anything to offer him either. Sure, he could have helped Naruto go over some of the basics, like chakra control, but why should he when he knew someone that could teach that stuff even better than himself? Furthermore he had alot to offer Sasuke: they both had the same type of elemental affinity and they both used the sharingan (Kakashi is the only one who could teach him that). Perhaps even more important is that Sasuke had Orochimaru and Gaara after him, and Orochimaru had already tried twice (first after Kakashi sealed Sasuke's curse seal, and again when Kabuto was sent after him) to get at Sasuke. Neither Naruto or Sakura needed protecting as much as Sasuke did, so teaching might have just been a ploy to stick close to Sasuke in order to protect him. Teaching him Chidori would help Sasuke against both Orochimaru (probably not much, but at least a little) and Gaara (which it did), which would also help Kakashi in protecting Sasuke. I also do believe that when Kakashi taught the Chidori, he stressed that Sasuke never use this against a comrade.
Now, back into a more on topic note, for many of the reasons stated previously (Kakashi doesn't really have anything to offer Sakura) I don't see him teaching Sakura something directly, except maybe if Tsunade were to die. I can easily see him pointing her training in the right direction, but for now I think Tsunade would be her main source of training.
@ leos : when team 7 was first created, whom did the 3rd assign kakashi to look over, was it naruto or sasuke? kakashi is and was a terrible teacher, he knew from the beginning that both sakura and naruto lacked ninja training and yet he chose sasuke. just one question, how was naruto supposed to fight neji by learning basics.
Going into a rage over Sakura getting beaten to a pulp certainly can't count any more than Naruto doing the same when he thought Sasuke was dead.
Then I'm afraid your memory is off. It was made pretty clear in the flashback Kakashi had after getting hit with Tsukyomi.Quote:
Check it out, Naruto chapter 143 page 8 http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/143/08/
I recall the anime being clearer, but even in this translation Jiraiya says quite plainly I want you to look out for Sasuke.
Therefore Jiraiya appears to be the one to tell Kakashi to concentrate on Sasuke. In addition he makes it evident that one major reason he came to the village was to train Naruto.
Therefore its pretty obvious that his initial refusal to train Naruto and him seeming to meet Naruto by accident was all just a fun con for Jiraiya.
Well beside the general "clan killed... revenge is my life's purpose" thing, the point in the manga were Kakashi taught Sasuke the chidori was shortly after he received his cursed seal and delighted in making the sound trio suffer, which Sakura told him about if i'm not mistaken. Even that aside Orochimaru told Kakashi plainly that Sasuke would seek him out. Plenty of warning signs if you ask me.Originally Posted by Ryodraco
The section was quoting the recent past in which Jiraiya was stating his plans to take and train Naruto and warning Kakashi about akatsuki. That was likely after the Sandaime was dead. Nothing about it that i saw implies that flashback occurred before Orochimaru invaded.Originally Posted by Ryodraco
Now all that said, this thread is about Sakura and it wasn't my intent to send it off topic. So i will rephrase my original opinion to something slightly less controversial.
I don't think Kakashi is a good choice to teach Sakura. Even if Tsunade should die, i think the manga would be better served with introducing a new character to be her mentor.
Last edited by Jammin; September 10, 2008 at 07:42 PM.
The thing is kakashi from the start was the ideal person to train sasuke. He was the one in the leaf village who IMO could understand sasuke the most. He had sharingan, lost all he ever cared for, he was a prodigy since a young age and they even have the same afinity. If you look at kakashi's personality at the beggining of his gaiden, you will notice it was fairly similar to sasuke's.
On the other hand kakashi wasnt overall the appropiate person to train naruto, mostly because naruto was set to be the complete oposite of sasuke.
Even during naruto's training arc kakashi overall didnt do much. Most of the time he was there just briefly explaining things, then leaving naruto to do everything on his own. his biggest contribution to the training was comming up with the shadow clone thing (which is by no means a small thing) but other than that anyone could have explained naruto everything about the elements.
Now, if you had fully read my last post, Kakashi training Sasuke during the chuunin exam, - which is the only time he ever "chose" Sasuke over the rest of the team - was most probably secondary (and suplementary) to protecting Sasuke from Orochimaru, and to a lesser extent Gaara. Orochimaru had already made two attempts on Sasuke, and they had every right to believe that he would try again. Naruto and Sakura were not in any immediate danger at all at that point.
By saying 'mastering the basics', what was mostly being refered to was chakra control. Naruto's chakra control had become significantly worse during the second test (and it was bad to begin with), because of Orochimaru sealing off the Nine Tails chakra. Chakra control is arguably one of the most important skills of a ninja, as without it you cannot use jutsu, break genjutsu, enhance your physical abilities, etc. etc. The main reason Naruto could barely defeat Kiba was because his chakra control had become so poor it took him forever to just create several shadow clones. By increasing his chakra control Naruto would have been able to use his shadow clones to a much greater affect (which he did do in the fight) and be able to increase his physical abilities (which he also did in the fight). Without chakra control, it would be pretty hard to learn jutsu and any other chakra related stuff.
As for Kakashi knowing that Sakura and Naruto lacked ninja training.....what? I can see how Naruto lacked ninja training considering he was dead last, but Sakura definitely was not lacking ninja training when Team 7 was first formed. It also appears that he taught both Sakura and Naruto throughout the manga, even though it wasn't shown.
I am with Jammin' and think Jiraiya talked to Kakashii after Sandaime's death. He tried to keep his whereabouts unknown from Konoha (he didn't want Ebisu to tell Sandaime he was back) while the words about his return would have spread immediately (I mean, he wasn't really hiding there with Kakashi. Everyone could see him). And if Jiraiya went as far as Konoha, there was really no need to involve Ebisu. Jiraiya didn't come to train Naruto, but to protect him in the first place and Ebisu isn't exactly the most reliable guardian.
On topic now : I think Kakashi could be a good teacher for Sakura. So far, she is all healing and fists of doom. She needs far more flexibility. She is even more unidimensional than Naruto. So Kakashi, as the most all-rounder among the teachers should have a lot to learn her. Middle-to-long range jutsus and genjutsu (casting, not dispelling this time come to mind for example.
However, Kishimoto seems to like his characters overspecialized, so she'll probably stick with Tsunade, medic jutsu and melee and start using her medical knowledge in a nasty way ala Kabuto.
Last edited by Rahan; September 10, 2008 at 10:09 PM.