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Alright so then this has always been something that I'm interested in, namely is the only reason Tousen lost because he fought Kenpachi? I'm also curious to see if Ichigo can match up to one of the traitors and this is the only one we can really use.
Tousen of course has his Bankai and Ichigo has Vizard and Bankai.
In all honesty I have no real opinion on this battle though I am leaning towards Tousen because if given a reason not to screw around he could probably get a kill in, of course I also realize that Ichigo has fast reaction time but it's not the same as Kenpachi's. The real problem I see for Tousen is Ichigo's AOE attack Getsuga Tenshou.
The only real rule of this batle is that Tousen won't be an idiot and explain his bankai to Ichigo/actually go for the kill. They don't start out in Bankai.
Tousen's bankai is useful, and so is his shikai's "cry" ability, but I think Ichigo could overcome.
I think his vast, immense pure power would help him with Tousen's bankai. he could either blindly harm Tousen, or destroy the bankai balloon, or escape it.
there's really no need to get into it any deeper than that, in my opinion. one thing i notice in all of these versus threads is that we as fans over-analyze and think more in depth about matchups than Kubo probably does, and we knit-pick every little thing, when really, 75% of it doesn't matter.
Going off what I've seen in the manga, I really think there are only two ways to defeat Tousen's bankai:
a) Have a reiatsu so high that you can incapacitate Tousen solely with reiatsu and you can take your time slashing around to find him (see Aizen)
b) Tousen underestimates you and decides to show "justice" rather than shut up and kill you (see Kenpachi)
Now, we know Tousen can use some sort of kidou seeing as he vaporized Grimmjow's arm.
Also, let's be honest. I do not care which character is his opponent, unless they know about Tousen's bankai ability, they are going to be taken aback at first because of the big surprise (losing 5 out of 6 senses (reiatsu-sensing is a sixth sense in this manga apparently) suddenly will surprise anyone unless they expected it). That should be opening enough for Tousen to lop off your head or shoot a kidou blast to your face.
Now, nothing shows Ichigo can incapacitate Tousen with reiatsu alone so that is out. As long as Tousen doesn't act dumb and lecture the deaf/blind person, while giving that person time to get used to the bankai, Touisen should win without much trouble.
Ichigo wouldn't be able to escape because he wouldn't know he's in a bubble. Furthermore, nothing suggests you can just walk out the bubble. Also, nothing suggests you can break the bubble unless you defeat Tousen.
@ryanzokuken: You do not know what Kubo is thinking in this manga. The presence of one character makes it very likely that Kubo does think in-depth. That character is Ulquiorra. You have to think in-depth to figure out Ulquiorra because what is on the surface doesn't tell you about him. You're assumption that Kubo does not think in-depth is a big flaw in your arguments.
ok then, well let me just point out things like your assumption that Ichigo can't incapacitate Tousen with reiatsu. you don't KNOW that. judging from what we've seen regarding Ichi's reiatsu, like it being on par with Kenpachi's at the end of their fight, as well as people like Grimm, Shinji, and Ulq's comments on it, we know he has massive amounts.
you don't know the bubble can't be broken or escaped from.
you don't know Tousen is some kido expert just because he used one.
also, the bankai takes away 4 senses. you still have your sense of touch.
probably so they can feel pain and furthermore be punished by his justice and blah blah blah.
Kenpachi could feel it the second Tousen's blade came in contact with his body.
anyways, i'm not being a jerk, and i know you're not trying to claim you know all of those things for sure. we're going by what we've seen so far.
well another thing we know (not just for bleach) is that main characters don't always need logical or reasonable things on their side for them to win.
and i'm not saying Kubo doesn't think in depth, just that we here on these forums disect things and pick everything apart and over-analyze wayyyyy too much and make things 100x more complicated than they are.
how do we know that on the verge of death, being cut up in the sense-removing bankai, Ogichi wouldn't take over Ichigo's body again and go BERSERK and harm Tousen or the bankai bubble? or how about the ground on which they stand? Kenpachi and Tousen were still standing on the surface of the roof of the building they were on.
how do we know Ichigo's hyper speed and/or GT wouldn't help him escape or destroy the bubble with ease?
hell, he might even find the same strategy that Kenpachi did!
we don't know.
and whenever in doubt, it's always safer than safe to assume the main character will find a way and win.
and about Ulquiorra, you also don't know that he's a complex, deep character. maybe what's on the surface really IS all there is to him. are you expecting him to break down and spill his heart and reveal some deep, intricate personality and sea of feelings? i'm pretty sure he really is just a boring, empty, goth douche.
Last edited by ryanzokuken; November 12, 2008 at 12:43 PM.
Looks like you're going to nonsensical route.
Ichigo's reiatsu wasn't on par with Kenpachi at the end of that fight. Later details prove that. Bankai Ichigo has the same reiatsu level (captain-level) as shikai Ichigo. Bankai Ichigo could only put a scar on Grimmjow with his strongest attack, while eyepatch-less Kenpachi put a long, deep cut on Nnoitra. They definitely were not on par.
There is NO proof of Ichigo being on par with Shinji. I don't know where you're getting this.
At his current level, he has yet to prove he is on par with Ulquiorra.
You're the one who stated he could escape, so it's own you to prove this out-of-left-field claim because I do not see it stated or implied anywhere that you can just walk out the bubble. Plus, Ichigo wouldn't know he's in a bubble.Quote:
You having trouble reading? I didn't say Tousen was a kidou expert. I said he can use kidou, so he can fire it at will.Quote:
Like I explained, I said reiatsu-sensing is like a sixth sense in this manga, which is why I said 5/6: hearing, sight, taste, smell, reiatsu-sensing.Quote:
I don't know if you're a jerk. What I do know is that you have a lot of difficulty comprehending what you read because I did not say anything, that wasn't stated or implied by the manga, was true for sure.Quote:
The threads for these fights are not plot-based so him being a main character does not mean anything. If he would win just because he's the main character than this thread would be pointless.Quote:
You do not know what going too far is when analyzing mana details, so you do not know if people are going way too into things.Quote:
If Tousen immediately cuts off Ichigo's head, what can the hollow do? If Tousen is firing kidou from long distance, what can the hollow do? Go berserk and then what? He doesn't know where Tousen is.Quote:
Unless you have proof for statements like these, then it's pointless to post them.Quote:
That's a strategy that was put into play because Tousen took too much time. If Tousen goes straight for the head right after bankai, you wouldn't have time to come up with that strategy.Quote:
That way of thinking is quite stupid because Ichigo has lost fights in the manga. Furthermore, if it were the case that "main character always wins," then this thread would be pointless.Quote:
Go back and read all the panels where Ulquiorra is around or they speark about him. Watch closely and you'll start to see something.Quote:
How is Ulqui an in-depth character? I figured he didn't believe in friendship and that he thought that feeling and all that stuff was foolish the moment we saw him(and later chapters only strengthened my belief).
Also why don't you think that that an AOE attack could take Tousen down?
That said unless Tousen decides to tank a GT then Ichigo's should go down.
Last edited by Onomatopoeia; November 12, 2008 at 04:38 PM.
then he DID match Kenpachi in reiatsu, whether you say he did or not. the end of the fight showed both of them with equally sized giant torrents of reiatsu surrounding them and shaping monstrous faces, before they both clashed swords and their reiatsu met, causing a huge explosion.
Ulquiorra commented that during his fluxuation, his reiatsu went from sadly low to immense, even greater than Ulq's own.
Grimmjow gave a handful of remarks such as "now you're talking, Kurosaki! that's some damn good reiatsu!"
Shinji discussed with Lisa the matter of Love needing his mask to stand up against the reiatsu of hollow Ichigo's cero.
i could go on and on. the point is, it has been made clear to us on many, many occasions just how great Ichigo's reiatsu is.
2 at what point did i say ANYTHING AT ALL about Ichigo being on par with Shinji? not once. take your own advice and READ.
3 it's never implied that you can't exit the bubble either. and you're stating that you can't get out, so where is YOUR proof? exactly, you have none. my theory that it can be broken out of or simply walked out of is just as good as your's that it can't.
don't demand proof when you're not supplying any yourself.
4 uhh...you didn't even explain anything here. i know what you said about reiatsu sensing being a 6th sense, and i agree with that. but 5 out of 6 is incorrect.
Tousen's bankai removes 4, not 5.
all human senses BUT touch. you can still feel.
4/6. as i said in my last post.
once again, take your own advice and read.
5 fine, but AGAIN, YOU don't KNOW either. you don't know that they aren't taking things too far, so, again, my guess is as good as your's.
6 well being as that we've seen Tousen use his bankai twice, on many opponents (Kenpachi, the vaizards) and being as that he has yet to immediately cut someones head off, i think it's safe to assume he's too dumb to do that. or maybe he finds it "unjust", who the hell knows. when he starts decapitating people as a package deal with his bankai, we'll consider that.
and hell, if we're saying the fight could be over in a single move after bankai, can you prove that Ichigo couldn't just insta-kill Tousen with his hyper speed? remember when he first went bankai, his speed allowed him to get right up to Byakuya and place his sword at Byakuya's neck before Byakuya even noticed that he moved. Byakuya later commented that Ichigo should have killed him right there when he had the chance, which tells us that he could have. and if Byakuya wasn't fast enough to avoid that, why would Tousen be?
regrding the hollow, if it went berserk, running/flying around at hyper speed, thrashing about, launching attacks like GTs and ceros, who's to say Tousen would be able to get off any good hits at all? or avoid being hit and seriously harmed himself? who's to say the bubble couldn't be destroyed by such powerful attacks? again, note hollow Ichigo's cero while fighting Love and what was said about it.
and again, maybe he could just exit the bubble when the edge was reached. i don't know. you don't know.
and like i mentioned, the ground is still destructable.
7 hi. welcome to shounen anime/manga. sorry pal, that's how it is 90% of the time.
@Ono: Pay attention to Ulqui-Inoue interactions. He's learning from her, about her feelings, about how she thinks about her friends, what friendship means to her, etc.
You also notice that he's not into senseless killing. He protected Yammi from Urahara and stopped Grimmjow, one-armed, from taking on Shinji because he saw that Grimmjow was losing.
He also looked away when Grimmjow killed Luppi. These small details al contribute to Ulquiorra's character which isn't cut and dry.
Nothing implies that Ichigo is much stronger than Tousen, so saying Ichigo's GT could take down Tousen is just a random statement that lacks evidence.
This mean he should be able to take on people like Rukia and Gillian since without the name he was around a seated officer's level. However, he does not have godly reiatsu. Once he faced captain-level fighters, that reiatsu thing was not focused on as much as you obviously did not notice. He needed to receive a special power-up and training to continue to progress.
That special power-up was resolve and the hollow that he received during Urahara's session. The hollow wasn't natural nor was it something planned so it was basically an accidental power-up.
This is what you wrote:Quote:
"judging from what we've seen regarding Ichi's reiatsu, like it being on par with Kenpachi's at the end of their fight, as well as people like Grimm, Shinji, and Ulq's comments on it, we know he has massive amounts."
It's kind of pathetic that you do not even understand the things that YOU write. I guess reading is difficult for you.
I didn't state anything. Since you cannot read so well, I'll explain it to you in a simple way.Quote:
You stated something (Ichigo can escape the bubble) that has no evidence to act as back-up. I said Ichigo wouldn't escape because he wouldn't know he's in a bubble. He wouldn't know where he's going if he started to walk around. I also stated that YOU don't know he can escape, meaning YOU have to provide the proof to back-up your claim and I simply called you out on it.
Basically, your convoluted mess of a response is just a bunch of assumptions and "what if's" which mean nothing in a serious discussion.
Don't try to tell me to read when you do not comprehend my post. It's screams irony lolQuote:
It removes all but touch, INCLUDING reiatsu-sensing, which is the 5th of 6th I am speaking of. Go back and read the manga if you even understand it.
If there is no defined limit on how in-depth he goes, then it's assumed to be limitless (you're probably not going to understand that but I no longer care), so anyone can analyze the manga details as much as they want.Quote:
Just because he doesn't kill them immediately he's dumb? He didn't want to kill the Vizards. Aizen didn't tell him to kill them. With Kenpachi, he wanted him to suffer and gave him too much time to develop a strategy.Quote:
Your scenario assumes that Ichigo is much stronger than Tousen and scenarios based on random assumptions are meaningless.
As I said, Ichigo had lost fights in this manga, so your way of thinking, shounen or not, is still quite stupid.Quote:
everything you stated here furthered my point. i hadn't even mentioned the fact that he's still a living human, and had shinigami powers for only a miniscule amount of time, but everything you mentioned points this out and only makes all his reiatsu-displaying feats that much more impressive.
2 YOU are still failing to read and comprehend correctly. "as well as people like Grimm, Shinji, and Ulq's comments on it". COMMENTS ON IT. each of them COMMENTED on his reiatsu and how great it is. if you're not sure what the word "comment" implies, i'll break it down a bit. they talked about his reiatsu, each saying something or another implying how much reiatsu he has and how powerful it is.
nothing there about Ichigo being on par with Shinji.
3 my argument that he could escape from the bubble (what's it matter if he knows where he's going? he moves at hyper speed, if he just shot around, he would reach the edge sooner or later.) is no different from your argument that he cannot. if i need proof, you need proof. since there is no proof either way, neither of us KNOW anything about whether or not the bubble can be exited. which brings us back to my reply to your first post. i'm not saying he definitely could, i said it's a possibility.
if you don't have any proof or even any evidence that the bubble cannot be exited, than you cannot say that it definitely can't.
4 show me at which point any of your posts regarding the fight were anything but assumptions and speculation?
of course it's assumption. in any of these fight discussions about fights that have never happened, assumption is going to be the basis of all argument. we can use little pieces of evidence from what we've seen, but there is no solid proof as to who can beat who, so all we can do is use what little we have to make logical assumptions.
again, none of your argument has yet to be any more logical or fueled by evidence or proof than mine.
not to mention that every accusation and insult you throw at me is something already evident of yourself and your own argument. yet, ignorant of your own hypocrisy, you proceed to flame and insult, as you do in all your arguments here on these forums, when you find that you can't make any headway otherwise.
5 ok......exactly what i said in my previous post when i corrected you on the matter. thanks for repeating it....i guess...?
6 err..ok. again, i know. i'm not telling people to stop analyzing and discussing, or trying to say they can't.
7 regardless of his reasons (i listed more than one possible reasons last post), the point still stands. he has used it on several opponents and not insta-killed one yet. when that becomes a factor, it can be used as basis for an argument. until then....
and also, did you have no smart-ass response for what i said about Ichigo's speed and possibility of insta-kill on Tousen as well?
assuming both are smart enough to take the chance and kill quickly, as soon as the opening presents itself, Ichigo can get it done faster.
8 i'd say from what we've seen, it's fairly evident by this point that Ichigo is stronger than Tousen. Tousen would still stand a chance and possibly win due to things like his bankai, kido, and strategy, but that's what this whole thread is about and i shouldn't have to explain it to you.
see if you can reply in a civil way without just resorting to petty insults. or is that all you can do to make yourself feel smart and correct?
You worded your sentence terribly. What your sentence means is that he's on par with Grimmjow, Shinji and Ulquiorra. The way you used "as well as" implies that Ichigo is on par with those three since right before that you said Ichigo is on par with Kenpachi. Now, you don't even know how to comprehend your own sentences.Quote:
You have no argument because you have no back-up. There is nothing to suggest you can escape the bubble and I pointed that out. Case closed.Quote:
You're just posting "what if's" which mean nothing.
Also, it does matter if he knows where he's going. If someone doesn't know what will happen, they won't move. First off, he's going to need some time to understand what just happened. He isn't going to move until he figures out why he suddenly turned blind and deaf.
My analysis of the fight was judging, by what we see from Ichigo so far, if he could deal with Tousen's bankai. I didn't post assumptions. What I said would happen to Ichigo is common sense.Quote:
It wasn't me repeating you. You said 4/5, when it's really 5/6. I doubt you'll understand this though. You just seem oblivious to such a simple detail I pointed out.Quote:
Actually you were. You complained about people "nit-picking" and you suggested that 75% of the "nitpicking" doesn't matter. That's pretty much suggesting people shouldn't do it.Quote:
You had no reasons. The only person he was trying to kill was Kenpachi. He wasn't trying to kill the Vizards because Aizen didn't order him to.Quote:
You do not know Tousen's speed and reaction time so suggesting Ichigo can insta-kill him is random. Notice Ichigo is not doing "hyper-speed" anymore. Furthermore, it's implied that the reason Ichigo got to Byakuya's neck was because Byakuya didn't expect that kind of speed and didn't have his guard up.
Why do I say this? Because right after, and before the bankai actually started to slow Ichigo down, Byakuya was able to block Ichigo's attacks. He could react fast enough with senbonzakura to block Ichigo's strike. That's after he put his guard up and expected that type of speed. That pretty much implies the first time was catching Byakuya off guard.
Nevertheless, nothing suggest Ichigo would be able to get to Tousen's neck like that.
There is nothing to show that Ichigo is stronger, so you can assume all you want. There is no evidence or anything that implies your point.Quote:
Petty insults? Do you even know what that means? I called your way of thinking stupid because it is. You're pulling the "he's the main character, so he'll find a way to win" in a manga where the main character has lost fights on several occasions. That is quite stupid.
The emotion-less types usually aren't into senseless killing.Quote:
That said perhaps I won't see Ulqui in such a bad light. SHould be interesting to see if they were coincedences or just Kubo actually purposely doing it, we'll find out by the Ulqui vs Ichigo fight.
You know as well as I do that Tousen's durability is miserable. Two strikes from eyepatched Kenpachi and his Bankai broke and one strike was enough for him to become retarded enough to charge Kenpachi. It's not that strange from that to gather that if a GT hit that Tousen would get hurt(depending on how big/strong it is) he would get hurt a lot.Quote:
Last edited by Onomatopoeia; November 15, 2008 at 11:33 PM.