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? Nice conception HegemonKhan But in that case why Clare ended being an Yoma toy with so powerful mother behind Her back? And in some reminiscence is mentioned, that Claymore can not have children due physical changes made in transforming process.
But it does not change fact, that some of them like Men companion
Have a nice day
Last edited by colonywars; March 07, 2011 at 11:09 AM.
Louvre acting like Rig would be most unexpected to me, but it's HegemonKhan's story and he should write it as he sees it. Think of it as alternative Claymore history!
When Louvre examined Clare's abdomen in Scene 4, he seemed quite clinical about it, as if a physician. Louvre does appear sexually ambivalent and not a raging heterosexual, macho-type like Rig. But who knows? Louvre always seemed to me like an otherworldly priest. His relationship with the warriors alway felt genuinely parental. He appears to have little or no ego.
Although both the warriors and readers have attributed all sorts of villainous intents on the part of Louvre, it's all conjecture as I've never seen any solid evidence from what's presented in the manga. Even this Dragons' Allies business is conjecture on the part of Cynthia (Scene 84) as Louvre never confirms it. Though he does teasingly invite the three warriors to guess who he works for.
As colonywars predicts, I think Yagi has a surprise in store for us as to who Louvre really works for. Louvre may prove the biggest red herring in the entire series (or not).
In the Spanish edition of Claymore, I understand that Helen in the Pablo Mountains confesses to have awakened while sleeping with a boy, but it's supposedly a mistranslation of the original Japanese text. I really don't see any sexual interest on part of warriors, though the Gaymore chart on another website is funny. One of Data Books does has a humorous cartoon showing Jean warming Clare's bed and Clare telling her to get out!
Last edited by jamie95403; March 08, 2011 at 03:15 AM.
jamie95403 I have nothing to HegemonKhan's version of Claymore history, I even think for a while, it was something quite interesting and I really like HK ideas and fantasies That is why this forum are something more, then some dry, useless discussion about facts.
And I am apologize, if I offended somebody.
But We must remember, that the main "Game Keeper" is always Yagi, and as I see, He is really try to make this manga as much real as possible, with physics, world mapping and behaviour of characters. I only have hope, that maybe He sometimes reads, what other peoples thing about it, how they are interpreting His story, and maybe He even takes some this ideas to reality, His reality
As You have in under post quote: "All possibilities are on the table"
Have a nice day
No matter what an artist does, no matter how elaborate a work the artist creates, we are still presented with only fragments of a world, full of gaps, which we as viewers must fill in to make it real.
The more we put ourselves into this, the more solid the world that the artist tried to create for us becomes. To do any less is a disservice to both the artist and ourselves.
And just as no one can breathe for us, digest our food for us, no one can truly think for us either. We have do it ourselves. We mustn't worry about what translation is more canon or not, or whose interpretation more correct.
While these things can be interesting to talk about, the only important thing in the end is how real we can make the artist's vision for ourselves. It can't be anyone else either, since it's part of us. Hege's Claymore world and yours are as real as anyone else's, no matter how they differ.
So keep imagining and dreaming. Your dreams!
(and don't take anything I say or anyone else on this forum too seriously---we're just funning with each other :-)
Last edited by jamie95403; March 08, 2011 at 09:13 AM.
my old wild theory about Father Rubel, Mother Rafaela, and Daughters Teresa and Clare... was just for fun... it's not to be taken seriously, and it's completely impossible in being correct.
Last edited by HegemonKhan; March 08, 2011 at 10:46 AM.
Since you're into "outrageous" speculations, Hege, how about this one: Louvre is really a female! Is it possible to do anything with that one? How about Priscilla being Louvre's daughter? And the reason the Org knows little or nothing about Priscilla is that Mom is protecting her. What about Priscilla's memories of "Musha"? False memories implanted by Louvre to conceal Louvre's true gender?
I still like the notion of Louvre as a priest working for Father Vincent, but anyone is welcome to take the above speculation about Louvre being Priscilla's mom and run with it!
Last edited by jamie95403; March 10, 2011 at 07:23 AM.
Not sure how Rubel could be the leader of the Org since it appears that he is one of the main formenters of the Claymore rebellion. Why would he seek to destroy his own org?
The other points about his involvement make some sort of sense, but his being the covert leader and then whispering doubts into Miria's and other's ears just doesn't make sense to me.
think of the Org as a "Lion's Den". All the BCs want supreme power for themselves, and won't hesitate to "slit each other's throats or stab each other in the back". Well, Rubel no more wants to share that power with anyone else, than anyone else does.
as for the "intrigue" of Rubel pretending to be a sub-ordinate and a "spy/anti-Org", I see it as the same as is seen/done by Raz al' Ghoul in the movie Batman Begins or the DC comic and its tv show series, it is made after.
the leader of the Org isn't going to be sitting on a "throne" like Rimuto does, no the leader of the Org is going to be "in the field" manipulating and pulling the strings of everything as puppetmaster, like Jigsaw in the Saw movie series. That's our Rubel, his "hands" are everywhere. It's like the Leader of a Guild of Thieves, he's/she's not going to be sitting on a throne in the Guild, but "out in the field", as that's what a thief Guild leader is, a THIEF! Rubel is the "Black Spider" after all, not some paper-pushing bureocrat and figurehead sitting on a throne getting fat.
it actually makes a lot of sense to me, as what better way to hide himself as the real-true leader of the Organization, than to pretend to be a spy "helping" (or rather I should say, Rubel is gathering intel, spying on, and controlling..) the Ghosts overthrow the Org, what perfect cover
a cop/FBI agent or CIA agent infiltrates a criminal or enemy organization by pretending to be on their side, pretending to be against his own country and agency/department
"A wolf hiding amongst sheep in sheep's clothing", and at your own peril, never forget that Rubel is a wolf, or rather... the "Black Spider", the leader of the Organization, the most feared and sinister and devious and cunning and manupulative and coercing and controlling of all the BCs at the Org, having everything and everyone on the island dancing to his strings as the puppeteer
I've written more about Rubel, here:
Last edited by HegemonKhan; March 28, 2011 at 12:41 AM.
In short, Louvre is the "man behind the curtain."
Like the Wizard of Oz and countless other films and print stories, the device of a follower/employee of an organization or group being the leader is one that many viewers and readers expect.
Not that long ago, I saw (or rather fast-forwarded:-) a film in which the least intelligent follower of a demon-goddess cult turned out to be the demon-goddess herself. Then there was an episode of the old BBC TV series, The Avengers, where the submissive follower of a sock-puppet cult was in fact the leader.
While Hege's hypothesis may well prove true, I'm hoping Yagi surprises us more. But if Yagi makes Louvre the man behind the curtain, so be it!
Last edited by jamie95403; March 28, 2011 at 07:27 PM.
it has indeed become cliche and/or well-known/popular now to do so, sighs sadly.
though, think about it this way....
doesn't the antagonist/villain... usually have the same (or nearly so) amount of screen time as does the protagonist/hero (unless the antagonist/villain is delibritely kept completely hidden until near the end)?
also, Rubel knows too much and is everywhere on the island, having his "hands in on everything".
also, rubel strangely seems to be immune from any type of danger... from being able to talk himself out of anything (even a Clare who was hell-bent on killing his ass in Lacroa, not only talking her out of it, but even getting her to STILL DO what he wanted, LOLOLOLOLOL, Rubel... SCARES... ME!!!) to having NO FEAR whatsoever, and he's been in a lot of situations where he should be p... down his pants...
So, what do we have with Rubel:
Omnificient (all knowing, Rubel knows more than any of the other BCs, and he's everywhere too)
Omnipotent (all powerful, Rubel seem to have an "aura" of immunity from any type of danger to himself, from being able to talk his way out of anything and NEVER showing fear when he's in many situations where he should. a note about all the BCs, suggesting they're not human, you'd think a BC could be easily killed, mob-murdered in a town by the human townsfolk, eaten by a wild animal in the countryside, killed/eaten by a NY or an Awakened in the countryside). ALSO, he has a LOT of power or "Sway" with the other BCs (how is he not their leader, hehe. I can go into details about this if anyone is interested) !!!!!!!
Rubel has an incredible amount of "Screen time", in fact, he probably has more "screen time" than even Clare does, and thus making him as thee character with the MOST "screen time". He's been with us from ch 1 to ch 113 !!!!! (we know now, that he was even in the Teresa arc/chapters, secretly spying on Clare+Teresa+Prsicilla, unknown to everyone, even Teresa!)
Last edited by HegemonKhan; March 28, 2011 at 07:08 PM.
Hege: If you take a creative writing class or two, you'll learn about narrative devices. It's been years and I've forgotten all the technical names, but one trick to keep the reader or viewer from getting lost is using a minor character, whose viewpoint you use from time-to-time in your story.
Louvre provides a sense of continuity from warrior generation to generation. He's sort of a structural glue to the Claymore saga. Though his presence helps complicate and forward the story, we may be reading more to his presence than warranted. But that's the fun of Claymore---interpretation, but it has to be our own and not someone else, though others can and will provide helpful hints to our own personal exploration. This is what this forum is all about and more.
So please continue, though, with your hypothesis about Louvre. Let no one steal your dreams, or thwart your imagination.
It's your Claymore universe!
Last edited by jamie95403; March 28, 2011 at 09:08 PM.
oh, I'm aware of that, hehe:
(I'm an avid bookworm reading nerd/geek, so I know literature quite well, but not all the terms and all that stuff, but I know how stories work quite intimately)
1. if you wanted to know what early Clare was thinking and feeling: look to Raki! What Raki is thinking/feeling, Clare is thinking/feeling. Raki cried for both himself and for Clare at Elena's tombstone. Among otehr examples too
2. if you can't read the subtle body language of Deneve yet: then look to Helen, as she VERBALLY VOICES what she and Deneve are thinking and feeling and wanting/desiring !!!! (because they are one and the same, same minds, figuratively really!)
Last edited by HegemonKhan; March 28, 2011 at 10:15 PM.
OK, let's say Rubel is the leader of the Org. He has done more to forment the rebellion than even the Claymores themselves. He spreads intel to inflame Miria and others. He snoops into everything. If it's just a ploy to prevent power sharing, why not just covertly have some of the "higher ranking" BCs purged? He obviously can get the Claymores to do pretty much anything he wants, and while he had Rafeala he had a ready assassin. I'm sure with the right motivation she would have terminated a few troublesome BCs with no regrets.
The only reason I can think of for Rubel's inciting dissent is due to a power struggle within the Org. Maybe there are two factions and Rubel is really a good guy?! Could it be that he wants to shut down the yoma factories since they really serve no purpose other than to terrorize the country side. They're of no use in the bigger war with the Dragons. AB's can't be controlled so they are pretty much useless as weapons as well. I sometimes wonder if AOs couldn't be reasoned with and fight in the bigger war. They are always complaining about being bored, this would/could be a challenge they would welcome?! Maybe he wants to shut the whole thing down and really is the mole he says he is. The only thing is, what happens in the other war if the Org gets shut down? Are the Dragons really the bad guys? We really don't know anything about them. The Org's males don't win any good guy points due to their manipulation of the island and the needless deaths they cause. A truly professional organization would only kill when necessary. It really doesn't take much to piss off the Org and get labeled a traitor and judging from the destrution they wrought on the towns around Rabona, they will kill anyone or anything to get what they want.
well, Rubel might still need the Org's capabilities ("Factory-like" production of: NY, Claymore, sword forging, and Awakened creation) before he can dismiss it/remove it, should he desire to do so for whatever reason as the very leader of the Org.
though you definately bring up many of the problems I have as well, as it's hard to speculate why, as you pointed out. I mean, we really don't know much about the Org and its motives, other than what Rubel and only Rubel has told us, about this continent and its Dragons....
as for a possible way to explain Rubel being the leader:
here's one thing I can think of:
Rubel wants to turn himself into a "god-Awakened" or create an "ultimate army" to take over the world.
so, that's why he still needs the Org... even though he has no interest sharing his pursuits... with the other BCs...
Last edited by HegemonKhan; March 29, 2011 at 12:37 AM.
For the barest of reasons, a Claymore can be labeled a traitor and executed. Towns can be targeted if they don't "tow the line" and get wiped out on flimsy grounds. The Org is not made up of nice men. With friends like these, who needs enemies?
I hope Rubel or Miria et al takes them down. Of course, he could make things much worse, but I don't think so. In his dealings with his Claymores, he appears to sort of care. I don't think he anticipated Priscilla's awakening since it did him no good at all. And although sarcastic, he's never callous like some of the others.