I was kinda contradicting myself here.
Of course, I meant that it would proove the opposite.
The fact that Sakura might be considered a Special Medical Jonin, but lack experience to be considered a Jonin, "kinda" proove that Special Jonin is BELOW jonin.
And since Ambu's and Root's are special jonin (Stealth and assassination), that means that they might be lacking in other domains, and thus that aren't as great as a full-fledge jonins who are skilled in everything.
BTW, Ambu's are stealh and assassination specialist, but what is Root exaclty!?
Are they doing the same thing than Ambu?! If that's the case, I don't really see a point of having two groups to do the same thing.
Last edited by THM Nindo; February 16, 2009 at 02:10 PM.
Well, anbus and root were never called special jonnin so far, so I dont think they actually are special jonnin. In a way they are specialist in assasination and stelth but technically they dont have to be special jonnin.
Root was said to be a subdivision of anbu controlled by danzou, so they essentially should be the same as anbu but under danzous control...
Academy Student - Learned basic chakra creation and manipulation.
Gennin - Demonstrated rudimentary level execution of ninjutsu/taijutsu/genjutsu
Chunnin - Demonstrated ability to lead, basic mastery of ninjutsu/taijutsu/genjutsu
Special Jounin - Demonstrated exceptional mastery of a single ninja art, while having a basic mastry of the rest.
Jounin - Demonstrates exceptional mastery of basic ninja arts, and can control at least 1 element if not more, also demonstrating leadership qualities and ability to instruct lower ranking ninja.
Kage - Demonstrates exceptional wisdom/leadership abilities, Mastry of most jutsu, in control of at least 2 elements.
ANBU - The ANBU (暗部, ANBU; Literally meaning "Dark Side") is actually short for ANsatsu Senjutsu Tokushu BUtai (暗殺戦術特殊部隊, Ansatsu Senjutsu Tokushu Butai; Literally meaning "Special Assassination and Tactical Squad"). The name is a form of contraction, similar to English acronyms like SWAT, where the two kanji used to abbreviate the group's full name constitute an actual word on their own.
Ibiki was a special jounin because he was extraordinary at being able to pull info from his victims without having to use physical torture, he did it all with his interrogation abilities, thus making him "special".
ROOT - Root is a subdivision of ANBU, under the control of Danzo, but it's more his personal army of assassins. He's also collected children of the village that had been forgotten when their parents died raising them with no emotion to be perfect killing machines. Sai is an example of this kind of upbringing in Root.
Certainly an interesting thread
But there is one flaw in all these general assumptions. In order to say someone is "Kage level", there is a certain level of interpretation and generalizing from us readers which is not in the manga. The manga makes it pretty clear, the "levels" are an indication of status/role in the ladder, NOT of power. Last I checked, Kishi hasn't used the terms "Kage level" or any of the sort to describe someone's power(correct me if I'm wrong).
In order to use the term "Kage level" or "Jounin level" as an indicator of power, someone, somewhere is interpreting and generalizing something. In this case, the readers are generalizing the power levels of those in a given rank(ex: Kages) and then comparing this generalization with other people in order to classify them.
That's the big problem.
There are many way to interpret those :
The most common used by the people is comparing the power with someone of that rank.
If one ninja show skill rivalizing a jounin (ex: Asuma, Kurenai, Kakashi), then we can say that he would be Jounin-level.
If one ninja show skll rivalizing a Kage (ex: Tsuande, Gaara), then we could say he's Kage level.
I don't know if we could find a better way...
Being of hokage level is still not the same as being able to be hokage.
Being hokage makes one stronger and weaker at the same time; stronger in the sense that you get an unshakable belief in your country and will of iron when it comes to protect your homies but weaker in that you will be willing to take a bullet for your homies and when your opponents know that it sucks (gaara vs deidara).
The closest person I can think of to being genuine hokage-material is itachi, whose skills need no further comments and who for the sake of his village's safety and his brother willingly went through years of hell. That sounds like the self-sacrificing attitude you'd see in a kage worth his pricetag.
Also, I agree that special jounins shouldn't be judged on the same scoreboard as jounins. They are like the field medics, sniper teams or radar specialists/mechanics in your army whereas jounins would be your average jarhead and ambus would be the spec ops. While they might not be the most well rounded all around fighters, they will spot your enemies, fix your truck and pull a bullet out of your arse with nothing but a knive, a lighter and a pr6n magazine.
^I dont think the point of this is to discuss actual hokage candidates though. The point is to discuss whether a character has abilities and strenth equal to a specific rank according to what we have seen so far. In that sense we are not discussing, for example, whether orochimaru has the apptitude to be hokage but if his strenth is on the same tier as one. Also the thread doesnt sat hokage level but kage.
you see in the kakashi gaiden it is said by none other than minato himself that konoha's white fang enjoyed the respect of his fellow ninja on the same level as the sannin were revered. thus implying that among ninjas there is a "level" between jounin and hokage.
but to my knowledge he (White fang) was never considered for the hokage position.
so instead of power or ninja skill I believe the main difference between kage and sannin level is the amount of faith and trust the people place in you. that's something you have to earn by hard work over a long period of time, instead of relying on power solely which is something a mere akatski would do or orochimaru for example.
There as been no mention of any other ninja being Sannin or being mentioed as Sannin candidates.
As for the White Fang, if I remeber correctly, he was said to be superior to the Sannin, he was also never mentioned as a Hokage candidate, but given our knowledge of him I don't see why he wouldn't have been seeing as how all 3 Sannin have at one time been offered the title of Hokage. Also keep in mind, he was the same age as Sarturobi, their sons are the same age so its very logical that he was around the same age as Sarturobi, and even if he would have lived, he would of never been made Hokage because of his age.
I don't think in Konoha's power system, Gaara would be considered Kage level.
Mid-level chunnin-Ten ten, Ino,Konahamaru
Low-Level Jounin-Rock Lee, Sakura,Shino,Kiba,Shikamaru,Temari,Kankuro,Karin
To me Gaara would be Mid-level Jounin with Neji,Asuma,Kurenai,Hidan,Suigetsu,Juugo
High-level Jounin:Gai, Dei,
Low-level Kage: Tsunade,Kakashi,Sasuke,Sasori,Kakuzu
Mid-level Kage: Naruto, Jiraiya, Itachi, Oro,Sarutobi(Old), Hachibi,White Fang
High-level Kage:Sarutobi(prime), 1st Hokage,Minato?
Speaking about Kage level vs. Sannin level, well, I have to say that there really is no large distinction between the powers of said characters. All three of the Sannin are/were at or above "Kage level". Tsunade and Orochimaru are/were Kage and Jiraiya was nominated twice. Also, the distinction carries with it the assumption that those individuals met all of the specifications for the job AND had an "in". Sarutobi became Hokage because he was taught by Tobirama, who was a Kage because he was brother to Hashirama who is grandfather to Tsunade. Sarutobi wanted both Orochimaru AND Jiraiya to succed him because they were his students. Minato was Jiraiya's student (and a genius the likes of which only comes along once in a generation). Gaara became Kazekage because he was not only the strongest, but the son of the previous Kazekage. Madara was a Kage. Pein is also a Kage of sorts. Both of them probably mussled into their positions by killing the one who had the job before them. Kakashi could have been a Kage. Being a Kage just means that you are the biggest badass and the people give you the most respect and/or fear you the most.
Last edited by Kusachu; February 17, 2009 at 04:05 AM.
That's a unique title given to them (Sannin means Three Ninjas), so it's only for them.
But, a lot of people were compared to the Sannin in term of power and respect (ex: White fang), even in the manga, so I don't see why we couldn't compare other people to the Sannin.
Sannin-level only means that they can be compare to the Sannin.
The only downside of that comparison, is the fact that the three Sannin were strong enough to be Kage.
In fact, saying that someone is Sannin-level, is mostly saying that they are Kage level in term of power.
But being Kage is more than power, it's also intelligence and leadership.
So basically, if someone is strong enough to Kage, but hasn't enough experience, intelligence or leadership, he's Sannin-level.
I guess, that's a way we could see it.
Sannin is not an actual title though, in reality it is as much as a nickname as "yellow flash". Besides, it is highly probably the skills of the sannin have varied since the nickname was given(since jiraiya thought he could take the man who killed hanzo on his own) so we dont even know exaclty what sannin represented at the time given.
Now, if we want to consider sannin with the skills in the current manga, then it is very clear that sannin is at kage level. I mean, orochimaru was considered for the position 16 years ago, it is posible that jiraiya was considered for the position and decline and we know he was offered the position in the current manga, and tsunade actually became hokage even though we have no reason to believe she could take either orochimaru or jiraiya in battle.
Holy cow.... a whole bunch of "supposed facts" that don't back up the actual points being raised.
Let's go back to the basics:
In the current Narutoverse, the universal system [amongst multiple Sato] is as described:
Genin = low end Shinobi
Chuunin = mid end Shinobi
Jounin = high end Shinobi
Now, we can note that Konoha has a specific Academy for training shinobi, and it was mentioned that Kiri has one, as well (during the Zabuza arc, it describes the final exam as killing off fellow students, to introduce them to the gruesome world of death/killing in shinobi life). In Part 2, Baki states that Suna has taken on the Konoha Academy setup, and it is looking promising.
There are no records of any other village having a specific ninja academy. Look at Ame, and how Jiraiya had to teach 3 younglings [who would likely have died, in the harshness of the war, otherwise] how to be shinobi. While it is likely that some other countries have some kind of schooling program, I'd be hesitant to consider anyone "Academy Student" level, as it simply states that they are sub-par, and not-shinobi-qualified.
As for Tokubetsu Jounin [Special Jounin], I recall Ebisu, Anko, Ibiki and one of either Raidou or Genma [probably Genma] being in this rank. They appear to have the qualifications of a Jounin, in terms of authority, but are all very clearly sub-par in terms of stats to other Jounin we see, such as Kakashi, Dan, Asuma, and even Kurenai and the sand siblings. I don't recall the series ever specifying this, but to estimate that they are below a normal Jounin level wouldn't be an errant guess, so far as I'm concerned...
Now, a few things that I'm glad to see haven't come up [YET], but I'm sure they will, so I'll put a stopper to them, now...
1) Elite Jounin is not a rank. There is no specific label of this stated ANYWHERE. Asuma, Gai, and Kakashi are all said to be of superior calibre to the average Jounin, and somehow, someone comes up with some coined term that has no actual place in the series.
2) ANBU is not a rank. It is a job/position held by Chuunin and Jounin, usually detailing either assassination work (hence the name), or Hokage-guard duty. Either way, the ANBU is an organization that is commanded specifically by the Hokage, and outside of some filler stuff, there is NO mention of ANBU in any other nation. They wear masks to hide their identity, to prevent backlash either when they're off-duty, or to their family/friends.
Ne (Root) is a subsection of ANBU people that is commanded by Danzo. It's still ANBU, but they follow a different jingi [moral code], and obey a different leader... Not too much known about them, outside of that.
Hunter-nin (Haku pretended to be one) appear to be shinobi that hunt down nukenin (missing-nin) to prevent their village's secret from getting out. We only see Kirinin doing this, but given that Sakura seems to know all about it, I'd hazard a guess that the ANBU of Konoha do the same, especially given Sai's task to kill Sasuke (a nukenin of Konoha) during the 4-tails arc.
If you call ANBU a rank, you may as well call "Academy Teacher" a rank, and so forth... titles people have for the positions they hold [or jobs they do] aren't ranks. They're just titles. That's it >.<
3) Akatsuki is not a rank. It's a criminal organization led by Pain and/or Madara that is comprised of powerful nukenin from various countries. Please, for the love of all that's holy, don't call them a rank. Further, I believe Itachi was still only Chuunin rank when he left Konoha, which would technically mean that even Chuunin could get into Akatsuki, providing their skills met the requirements and they were strong enough.
4) "Council/Counsel" level also doesn't exist. Kotetsu and Homura [I think I got their names right; Sarutobi's former teammates, in any case] are considered wise in their years, have made it clear that they delegate well with the Daimyo [and pissing off the guy that pays your salary is never smart], and their wisdom is to be respected by the village. They have shown no particularly viable ninja-skills, so trying to make the claim that "they are the 2nd strongest shinobi in the village!" has no basis of truth, whatsoever. It's not a rank/level, it's just some people who are politically-wise.
Now, some issues I have that have already been raised, that need correction (IMO)
1) Kage is not a rank!! The "-Kage" title is given to the leader of the 5 shinobi villages in the 5 Great Nations. Being the leader of a village means you get to be the leader. You can't call someone "Kage level" if they aren't a Kage, because they aren't the leader. They may possess attributes that are superior to the current and/or past Kages of that village, but that doesn't make them the leader.
If you want to say "They're really fricken' strong" or "They're good enough to lead the village", then please state that.... calling them "Kage Level" means you're making up some strange ideology that compares the leader to this new person, and it is always a completely flexible position. If the entire village is Genin-level, and there is one person of Chuunin-calibre, they'd probably be made Kage/village leader, despite being a complete weakling beside the leaders of all normal countries.
2) "Sannin"-level does not exist. Much hatred for this particular batch of foolishness.... The "Sannin" title was bestowed upon the only 3 shinobi who were still standing in a big battle between Ame and Konoha [which just happened to be the legendary-strong team of Sarutobi Hiruzen... Graduated the Academy at, like, 5 or 6, and became Chuunin shortly thereafter, and Jounin before 12, IIRC... really freakin' powerful folk, the 3 of them], in which it was clear that Sanshuuou Hanzou [Salamander Hanzou] was the strongest person on the field, and he figured Konoha would probably eventually emerge victorious. Sannin means "3 ninja", and it's the shortened term for "Densetsu no Sannin", or "Legendary 3 Ninjas". The 3 shinobi who hold this title [note, it says 3, there are only 3 for crying out loud!] are all incredibly capable shinobi who have accomplished amazing feats, both individually and when working together, and between this, and the fact that they were in the same team, they earned this title.
That being said, it's no different that Kakashi's title of "Copy Ninja Kakashi" or "Sharingan Kakashi", or Namikaze Minato's title of "Yellow Flash" or Kakashi's father's "Shiroi no Kiba" [White Fang]. Amazing people become legendary amongst their allies first, then amongst their enemies, then finally amongst the commonfolk / neutral parties. Allies will seek to use the genius' abilities to their benefits (such as winning wars, or finding new abilities, and so forth), while enemies will educate themselves about the abilities of supposedly terrifying foes (such as how the Iwanin told Minato that they were instructed to flee if they ever encountered the Yellow Flash).
If you earn a title/nickname, it means you kick ass at something, or have some really unique attribute. To make the claim that someone is "Yellow Flash" level, or "Copy Ninja" level, or "Sannin" level are all equally pointless. If you want to say "That guy is as strong as any of the Sannin", say so. Don't call them "Sannin-Level", as that's like saying, IRL, "Yeah, he's Michael-Phelps quality" or something equally silly....
So, in summary:
If you want to call someone strong, do so. Compare their abilities, stats, fighting abilities, non-fighting abilities, or whatever. But, please, for any rational debate, please don't go making up some funky "system" for labelling people which directly contradicts what Kishi has told us [or what we can draw from other things he has told us]. Yes, this is a free forum where you could call a ninja a pink-dress for all it mattered, but don't expect to be included in serious/rational discussions if you do so.
Edit: Formatting fixes, and [/rant]
Last edited by LanderZ; February 18, 2009 at 01:41 AM.
you mentioned the "sannin" and the whitefang and minato in your post, so i suppose you were refering to my post??
anyway i never said that sannin or kage is a ninja 'level'. instead i said that the fact that minato mentioned the white fang to be of equal stature as the sannin means that the white fang enjoyed the same kind of admiration as the sannin did.
i mean if ninja are talking among themselves i could imagine them discussing with one another who's the strongest ninja. and saying stuff like for example: "wow that white fang is strong, maybe even as strong as the sannin" or "konohas yellow flash has definetly surpassed the sannin".
so i meant to say that among the ninja's the word sannin stands for a certain ninja level, not a official term. but still one that every citizen of konoha knows.
do I make any sense???
well maybe this post in addition to my previous post will make any sense
my previous post