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Kubo has done a good job of explaining some of this, we just gotta pay close attention.
I belive that here is a level of strength above bankai, but not necessarily "after" it.
Aizen said that there were limits to shinigami and hollow powers.
Bankai is the limit to a shinigami power whereas becoming a vastro lorde (through eating other's souls) is the limit to a hollow power.
A hollow who crosses into the treshold of the shinigami becomes an "arrancar" and can use a Shikai type release called ressurection
A shinigami who crosses into the threshold of the hollow becomes a "Vizard" and can empower their inner hollow through a process called hollowification.
This is where i think the power up is on both sides.
"Segunda Etapa" is like the bankai of the hollow world. Bankai = second release. Segunda Etapa = Second release.
So there most be something past "hollowification" for Vizards. I would say rite now Hollowification puts them at the menos level in terms of their additional hollow strength. So if they can release again, it would put them at the VastroLorde level, giving them a power comprable to ULQ's second form.
IT makes perfect sense to me.
Last edited by Tsukisama; March 16, 2009 at 01:47 PM.
Shirosaki did say ichigo has to wait for his next appearance in order to get his true power.... I guess that might come into play soon.
Also, bankai doesnt literaly mean "second release", it means "final release"(dont know if that was your point exactly, but it is worth mentioning). I will agree on that they represent the same thing though at least until the manga elaborates more on it.
The way I see it, shinigamification seals the true form or power of a hollow into a zampakuto. Given that it is indeed a zampakuto, it makes sense it has an initial and final release(or in this case resurreccion and segunda resurreccion).
Now in that sense, in terms of releases a shinigami is already equal to an arrancar. Now, for the evolution of the hollow power of a vizard; it is kinda harder to say how it will evolve. We know that for a hollow to evolve, first they have to fuse with a bunch of other hollows and transform into a gillian, then the gillian gets conciousness of his own and eventually it evolves into an adjuca. Later on after consuming a massive amount of hollows, the adjuca finally evolves into a vasto lorde. I dont think vizards will have an evolution of this nature given that they dont actually eat other hollows(as far as we know they cant even freely travel to hueco mundo). In that sense, it wouldnt even be appropiate to refer to the boost a vizard gets from his mask as gillian, adjuca or vasto lorde level given that the current vizard behaviour would make it very hard to quantify the boost in that manner. We also have no reason to believe that inner hollows evolve like that given that they are just parts of other souls, not masses of combined souls. If anything, inner hollows are more similar to regular hollows than to menos(although there is a significant diference in power).
Arrancar get the ability to release due to their shinigami nature, not due to their hollow nature. In that sense, getting hollow powers shouldnt given a shinigami the power to release again. What I think will happen with ichigo is that he will be able to use the full power shirosaki mentioned in the past and that will allow him to fight on even terms with ulquiorra.
Besides, we dont know of hollow's going bankai.
But what i really believe is (i didn't put this up cuz i thougth it was crazy, but i might as well know) that the hollow inside ichigo is a vastrolorde. That's why I specifically said ichigo in the title and not other vizards.
Not trying to exclude them, but they aren't the main character soooo...
Like you said, vizards dont eat souls so it would be unfair if some hollows can never make it vastrolorde status but a vizard can by diff means.
So yeah, i agree with you on that one.
But back to what I was saying about Ichigo, I think that "Shirosaki" is a vastrolorde level hollow.
What evidence do I have? None. But something tells me that ichigo has only been able to bring out a small amount of his power thus far.
I just think that a vizard's strength is fully dependent on the strength on the inner hollow
Well, the inner hollow is part of the vizards power, as we have seen with ichigo so saying the power of a vizard relys on his inner hollow is the same as saying that the power of a vizard depends on his own power XD
granted that the inner hollow can try not giving his full power to the vizard and it has its own personality which makes the whole situation rather complex lol.
i actually had a thought in a similar vein to this discussion when i was watching the latest episode. i was reminded of the forms the vaizards took when they first transformed into hollows. well, kensei and mashiro anyway, the others weren't given the time to reach the same level of transformation as these two. both of them have hollow parts other than their masks, just like ichigo did when he was transforming. mashiro has her legs, and kensei has his fists and the "blocks" that protrude from his back and shoulders. in my opinion these forms are the true hollow shinigami forms of the vaizards that we have yet to see any of them release. to me it makes sense, at the moment all the mask does is augment the shinigami side with increased power and speed, and access to ceros for those with more control. for it to be a true hollow-shinigami hybrid there needs to be more crossover (imagine the brutal hollow form, but with the intelligence and sword use of a shinigami).
sorry if i labored the point a little, what do you think?
This is how I think the arrancar and vizard transformation compare for beings of the same level and skill.
Vizard with mask on = arrancar in base form
At that point both are able to use shinigami and hollow powers
Vizard with shikai and mask = arrancar after resurreccion
Vizard with mask and bankai = arrancar with segunda resurreccion.
I dont agree with : Vizard with mask and bankai = arrancar with segunda resurreccion.
Therefore Ichigo currently should be as strong as Ulq in his segunda resurreccion because he has ban kai out.
Nope. When I wrote my opinion on that, I stated it was for individuals of the same power level and skill(of course the actual nature of the transformation and release have a part as well given that every release is different from another). If there is a difference in power then obviously the result of each transformation will be different, and that is what we are seeing now.Originally Posted by Deerkiller
Take as another example the fight between byakuya and renji. Byakuya held renji back and practically won without having any desperate need to release his bankai.
Well I guess in a way it'd make sense, but then you'd be comparing arrancars to Shinigami, which are of a different class. Shinigamis aren't hybrids like arrancars are, but I suppose the comparison still works.
The one thing which wouldn't make sense is that the "segunda Ressurecion" would scale with the hollow's power. Bankai does not scale with the power of a Shingiami/Zanpakuto. In theory, all Shinigamis and Zanpakutos have Shikai AND Bankai. It's the ability to reach and unlock/use that stage of pwoer which is what separates users apart.
In the same sense, one should assume that ALL arrancars have a Segunda Resurecion, but simply that the higher level entities can unlock that stage of power. I mean, Ulquiorra said "I am the only Espada able to reach this stage" not "I am the only Espada able to use this". Therefore, it's something which must be reached somehow.
It'd make more sense to me that way
Well, originally I was comparing vizards with the arrancar while putting arrancar resurreccion as the same thing as an equivalent to shinigamis shikai and bankai. The comparison shouldnt really work with if you compare shinigami due to arrancar already having hybrid boost. Arrancar would sort of be a transformation ahead of shinigamis due to being shinigamified at all times...
I was wondering hallows have 3 forms gillian, adjuchas, and Vast lords so do soul reapers they have their original form shekai and Bankai.
My point is when turned into hybrids hallows lose their mask but soul reapers gain their mask. like soul reapers their hallow abilities are similar to a zampacto. so can their first realise be like their skekai and as uli he was probably the first to have a bankai. so can the same be said for the opposite if we say that the mask ichigo received is his first state then can this be considered his shekai or his Bankai state know if his mask is his first state then his second state would be like his shekai he turns into part hallow part soul reaper then his next would be like his bankai but more of a hallow.
What im saying I believe ichigo may have another form after this and now we may finally see his hallow ability or it maybe more of his zampactos ability during this form. I believe Azien knows of this and achieved it already to be so powerful and we still haven't seen a fraction of this ability yet he demolished two captions bankais like they were nothing did a level 90 spell without the incantation he has the ability to turn other soul reapers and hallows into hybrids why not himself their is no evidence to support this but all his powers are above normal soul reapers and we haven't seen his bankai yet.
Im saying he maybe a genius but we have seen geniuses before and to be this strong got dam one would say he was on the same level as caption yammoto I would assume he is stronger if he achieved a hybrids power cause if the vizards have achieved what ichigo achieved or more then Azien's dead.
Last edited by Tsukisama; March 16, 2009 at 01:49 PM. Reason: Paragraphs
Hollows eat souls and other hollow to become stronger, therefore a vizard is not the same except for the inner Hollow of a vizard only has strength that is at different levels for that soul reaper/vizard depending on the spirtual pressure of the wielder of the zanpakto.
Since ichigo was born with alot of spirtual pressure he was a born soul reaper but not becuase his spirtual pressure but becuase his dad is originaly a soul reaper.
His vasto lordes form might have been awakened by the urge to protect his friends, beat ulqiorra, his inner hollows chance to take over, or even the hole in his chest from the cero ulqiorra used on him.
But the vizards have more expereince than he has in hollowfication but in spirtual pressure alone he excedes boyond the vizards!
If think I'm wrong on anything contact me at firstname.lastname@example.org
I still don't think segunda etapa should be seen as the same thing as ichigo's complete hollowification. Hollows remove their mask and take a shinigami form. Their zampakuto stores their power so to speak. A zampakuto is a power which an arrancar acquires due to their shinigaim half for the most part however when it is released it releases the hollow special abilities (as with shinigami) and their hollow bodies. In that sense resurreccion is more of a combination of shinigami and hollow powers, resurreccion has aspects and powers of both. In turn, vizards work differently for the most part. A vizard generally has a regular zampakuto which is released as with shinigami and independently from that they release their hollow forms. Tousen was a bit of an exception but overall he was not as different as some may think from vizards. As resurreccion would be a combination of hollow and shinigami powers then tousen through resurreccion tousen is simply more capable than the vizards of advancing his hollowification. Basically this would imply a complete hybrid should be able to advance his hollowication past his the mask stage and into a complete hybrid.
Considering the normal vizards can't maintain their hollowification for long periods of time as either tousen and ichigo evidently can then I would think they are simply not as advanced. Hybrids regardless of whether they are vizards or arrancar are esentially the same creature or simply different sides of the same coin. That much is evident considering both are a combination of hollow and shinigami powers (unless someone is willing to argue an arrancar or a vizard is not a combination of hollow and shinigami powers). In that sense, it should not be strange different blends of their attributes could be achieved for either an arrancar or a vizard. In that sense tousen using a resurreccion is not really that strange as he is simply combining hollow and shinigami powers differently.
Now, ichigo's particular way of combining shinigami and hollow powers is similar to the vizards in that he unleashes his shinigami and hollow powers independently. Ichigo's sword release is made of regular shinigami powers and his hollowification is made of progressively acquiring a hollow's body. The end result is the hollow ichigo we saw against ulquiorra, a complete hollow body and a bankai. Tousen's is evidently more similar to an arrancar's. First he puts on his mask to reach a base hybrid form which would be equivalent to an arrancar's base maskless form and then he releases his sword to release both shinigami and hollow powers.
Now, if we consider the hollowification of human souls we have seen before it would even make sense for a vizard to have to take a complete hollow form to have a complete hollowification. When a soul hollowifies it gains a new body in general. This body has enhanced strength and properties suit that suit the abilities the hollow has. In that sense the vizards we have seen so far do come short to arrancars since they can indeed use hollow powers but in turn their transformation is limited to a mask. They won't acquire the natural enhancements of a complete hollow's body from which resurreccion users of hollow ichigo benefit.
We already saw shirosaki take the form that defeated ulquiorra when he fought ichigo and when he united with zangetsu it even became a strange blend of both of them. It should be possible for ichigo to actually acquire the the form he used against ulquiorra and use it at will just as he learned how to use his mask IMO. That would be the stage where ichigo would have truly mastered his hollowication. The vizards, being a failed experiment to test the orb perhaps simply can't get past mask stage of their hollowification simply because they are not advanced enough. Even if they could it would be troublesome given the inherent time limit they have on their masked stage. At least IMO if the after 100 years the vizards still have trouble with their mask's time limit then there should be a natural limitation to it which would not exist for tousen (who even after being hit by myo did not break his hollowification and even went past the mask stage through his release) and perhaps ichigo (he could fight for far longer amounts of time with his mask on than the vizards and even use a half broken mask).