This is where everyone can speculate about suspicious things they've found in the series. Who knows, one of us might be on to something!
Note that the thanks on this post and the several posts immediately after this one relate to the 'Is Cross dead and who/what killed him?' question, which was once the first post. It has been moved to post #20.
List of mysteries in this thread:
I'll try to make sure everyone's main speculation is on the list, but if it's not here, please PM me about it. (I'm not very reliable by myself :/ )
- Is Cross dead and who/what killed him?
- What is the 'hidden/reverse' side of the war?
- The 14th is the 3rd side
- Use of Crown Clown
- Akuma's evolution
- Origin of Noah
- Magic in comparison to Dark Matter, Noah and Innocence
- Is Cross a Skull or...?
- Cross' two Innocences + Akuma Mystery + Skulls, Earl, Cross + The Noahs + Crown Clown
- About Lavi and Road: Possible allies of the 14th
- The 'people' Allen might kill are the Noahs
- Status of the 14th's faction and comparison between the 14th, the Earl and the Order
- The Noahs crests
- What if Mana was the 14th and vice versa?
- The Commander in chiefs - Which side are they on, are they Innocence users and are they stronger than the Generals?
Last edited by TitaniumChloride; July 13, 2009 at 09:55 AM. Reason: Edited first post to reflect merger
I think u have done a great job. up to now I believe Cross is definitely alive. Nice work!
Sorry that I couldn't be able to discuss it coz Im not really into Cross, but I really have to give u credits for ur great post
yep good job
reposted from dgreydivinity
according to number 8 cross is never seen again
so there's a big chance he has pasted away for good
it is not known when these words are said, but if one assumes Allen's saying them from sometime after the war (someone mentioned this possibility ) like here:
then it ensures Allen's survival after the war and readers can look forward to the future chapters, in which all these messages make sense
(its not that I don't want Cross to be alive
it just that if Cross suddenly pops up, it would be a contradiction to chapter 169, and I'd want a good explanation )
Cross will probably be a big support to Allen in memory or real form
(and even if he's not alive, he can communicate with Allen through messages recorded by Timcanpy )
I look forward to how Hoshino sensei with develop Cross as a character
Thank you TitaniumChloride for these detailed informations it was very helpful and interesting reading. I don't have any new idea about this I didn't remember that in the 10.point, that is very interesting, could be that Leverrier was there, and he helped him to escape, he's definetly a bad guy, but not a murderer becourse i don't think he lied to Link about that, a copy....i don't know, i think that would be too much, but who knows....
And one more thing...i have to ask...youre a CSI fun? While reading your post i had a feeling that i am watching an episode especially in 4. 5. points, i liked them so much.
Last edited by cristina23; May 07, 2009 at 08:33 AM.
another note to make why he is alive *i think* is that if he were dead his controle over Maria would cease to exist and she would turn back to normal. Like being a corps and the innocence would be there and they could retrieve it. Now all they found is Judgement. No Cross no Maria.
Ive got this feeling that Maria is very important to Cross. Why make her a minion/ a puppet. Why keep her in this state of undead? She was a great asset to his power. After all shes his defence and Judgement his offence.
I asume they used to work in a tag team. Like Allen = offence, Miranda = defencive. So far there are few defencive exorsists btw (justs a sidemark).
Also Cross doesnt care for anything anyone says, he was shocked by what lenalee said, that Anita said the same thing about her hair.
What he said in regard to that was interesting as well.
* i wont repeat it cause it goes better with the drawings* Better read it yourself ^^
All in all
1. Cross is alive! (thats like 90% sure to me)
2. Maria got to be either a pupil/teammember/love-interest of Cross. ( shes actuay a bit to old to be a pupil at the time) She *even with her face covered with the butterfly mask, looks at least 22*. If you take the hight and head structure and compare it with all the other mature female characters in the story.
3. Cross learned magical abilities *ancient/dark magic* from either Earl, 14th or Mana. (my bet is the 14th cause he thats Cross is carrying out the will of the 14th, Cross holds no loyalty to anyone ...exept the will of the 14th).
4 There is an alternative possibilty for Crosses behavior the last years also why he took Allen as pupil, ofcorse its said that hes simply carrying out the will of the 14th. A noah seems to be transfered when the host of the noah is still alive but knows death is imminent. Cross told Allen that hes simply chosen cause he was near, or something in that fassion. Now that means 14th was alive during the transfer. What if Mana was a noah as well. He knew the language that the music was written in. He never showed any fighting skills. Even tho its possible he laid low avoiding the attention of the Earl.
This would explain 14th & his brother thing without Mana being a regular human.
Now to the point.
What if Mana transfered his noah to Cross. This would create a loyalty from Cross towards Allen (his brother). It could also explain why Judgement rejected/turned against Cross. Cross turning into a noah. Im not sure what this means for Allen and his innocence if it would reject him. But i asume the more rare symbiont typ is more capable of functioning with a noah cause it can read the mind of its host. Equip typs just dont have that luxury.
As seen how timothy and his innocence even talk to eachother, this just cant be the case with equips.So its logical that Judgement doesnt recognize his wielder if he had changed into a noah.
pure speculation tbh ^^
1. Cross controles Akuma! Chomesuke and 2 others.
2. Road jumps Allen and kisses him on the mouth...wonder if any tongue was involved ^^
3. Lenalees innocence evolves to crystal typ! *tbh its just another symbiont*
4. Timothy converstates with his Innocence. This means Innocence is sentient and more then just a tool.
5. Last but not least Hoshino creates Akuma/Humans!
And these are just the big rabbits, forgot to include Earls rabbit ears ^^. Anyways its not a big surprise if Cross did show up. There is no corps, no Maria or her innocence. Only Judgement. Now if he was dead the other innocence would be there too.
Or else this is a gap too. Cause in every fight there is this big scene were Maria apears out of the cascet, then he pulls Judgement. So no Maria No dead Cross.
@cristina23,yvonnelsw: Thanks for the compliments guys. I have to admit that I don't watch criminal investigation shows, though I did watch a documentary on some murders once, a long time ago. That, and probably Phoenix Wright games were my influence in this area XD.
@hopeandlight: About 8 being said by Allen from future, that's like what I tried to figure out in this thread, but there's also the possibility that it's not that far into the future. It could be when he's on the run from Order for example. *shrug* I can't wait for those Cross flashbacks though, heh.
@ca12nag3: The idea I have with Maria is that Cross stores her in some kind of magical dimensional space, so technically she would 'cease to exist' if Cross died since no one else could bring her back to the real world. I don't think anyone else would be able to still retrieve her Innocence if that's the case. And there's been quite a few hints that Maria is someone very important to Cross (including the part where he shot at the Earl after he made a comment about her). Also, I wouldn't say Cross doesn't care about what anyone else has to say, he's probably just arrogant like that. His reaction to Lenalee when she was talking about Anita was because he was sad that she died when she tried to follow him even though he told her not to.
I'll have to get back to you on what you've said about Cross' relation to the Earl and the 14th however (once I start my next long posts on my other two ideas).
It's camp-at-2ch-for-hiatus-details time!
Ok, I'm starting part 2 now~ I'll make this one shorter because I'm really sorry about blowing your brains out with information overload.
Mystery 2: What is the 'hidden/reverse' side of the war?
...or more like which one is the hidden side Cross is referring to. Here's how many sides I think we have so far:
My impressions about which side is the hidden one is either 5 or 6, leaving out the 14th since according to Cross, the 14th knows about it (the Onemanga translation is kinda wrong) and what's the point of killing Cross for talking about his own side? Not to mention that it's highly unlikely that the 14th would have an ally in Central that would kill someone who is still on their own side.
- The Millennium Earl, Noahs and Akumas
- The Black Order, Exorcists, Central and Crow (they're on the same side... for now...)
- The Bookmen
- The 14th
- The Heart & Innocence
- Something in Central? (a.k.a Those responsible for Cross' death and possibly one reason why the Earl didn't crush the Order in the first place...)
About the Heart & Innocence being the hidden side:
It's pretty clear that the Heart of Innocence (and all Innocence as well I guess) has it's own agenda and that it is clearly against the Earl, though we are not certain whether it's because it wants to kill him like the 14th does or something else. And seeing how the Earl implies that if the Order finds something out the Heart will know as well, it's possible that the Heart is already located in the Order or Central.
That also suggests that the Heart could be the 'something at Central' that killed Cross. However, Bookman's reaction sheds some doubt to that, because if he knows that the hidden side is the Heart, Bookman would know where the Heart actually is (at Central) and would make us question why is he keeping this information secret. However, I don't think anyone is supposed to know where the Heart is at this point in the story, so the Heart being the hidden side is the most unlikely option here.
About the 'something in Central' being the hidden side:
This one is tough to figure out. By killing Cross, an important force to win the war against the Earl, it is clear that the goals of the Order and Central are irrelevant to this mysterious party. However, to say that this mysterious side is affiliated with the Earl doesn't seem quite right either because the Earl is not a 'hidden side', though I could be reading this wrong and that Cross was referring to a part of Central that is secretly working for the Earl. But if there is such a thing, why didn't the Earl know about the Akuma Egg parts in Central's posession and the production of half-Akuma? Based on this one fact, I can say that this group is not with the Earl, though the Earl might know about it. Others who are confirmed to know of this hidden side seem to be those with the 14th and Bookman himself, but how do they know?
I'm afraid this is all I can come up about this 'something in Central'. Well, there's one more possibility that it's just an unknown side to Central, though how they possess the power to kill a General so quickly is beyond me (adds Grand Generals to the possibility @_@ Yeah, I'm obsessed with trying to find out who these people with no Innocences but have more authority than Komui and the Generals are)
A word of caution about these theories of mine though: It's completely based on the fact that it is the 'hidden side' that killed Cross. If it's actually someone else, this is all for nothing.
Ugh, I'm kinda sleepy now and I don't think I've got all my points down, but what are your thoughts on this guys?
On another note, thinking of this added another possibility to Cross' attacker: If they were a Noah, they wouldn't have left Judgement behind too since they aim to destroy Innocence as well, though in this case their priority maybe to just get Cross (though why take away his corpse? Hmmm)
I'll need to append this later. Sleep now zZZZ
Last edited by TitaniumChloride; May 26, 2009 at 09:42 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Hmm the hidden side in the war. Basicaly it could still be under development, so that even Hoshino doesnt know yet how she is going to equip & man this side.
She did introduce a lot of characters to both sides to fill up vacant spots and or create the room for another faction.
Added Exorsists : Timothy, Chaoji.
3rd Exorsists : 5 in total if im right.
Ádded numerous scientists and Adminestrators.
Added Noah: Cyril.
And the Earl already has loads of Akuma
Also not forget to mention all the Colaborators that sell souls. Doctors, Nurses & Priests.
Tbh i find it that both sides are getting a little crowded.
So it might happen that from both sides people will break off and join the 14th who have hidden there till his resurection sorta.
As far as the suposed death of Cross and/or Jasdebi im not convinced they are dead.
No corps no death, adding to that Hevlaska only said Cross is no longer Judgements host/acomodator. So that does not directly suport his death. Also there was no crying over Jasdebi like with Skin so i asume they are still alive as well.
The events that took place are rather simple in nature
After the fight with Crory Jasdebi colapsed backwords and i asume they fell thrue a portal to another dimention, like room wise with Roads powers etc.
As for Cross Marian he had a visitor, that visitor caused something or perhaps asked questions, Cross gets shot.
Either by the visitor or to me most likely that Judgement shot him.
After that all that remains is Judgement and Crosses mask cracked and covered in blood.
A little more about this visit he had and the loss of his Judgement. And also linking this with Suman.
Suman gave away information to Tyki in exchange for his life this resulted in him being attacked by his innocence. As his innocence is parasitic its even more dangerous cause it attacks him from within, thus creating a fallen one.
His betrayal made this happen.
Now what if this visitor is/was a enemy/traitor and Cross gave information to the other side. Unknowing that the person hes talking to is not who he/she claims to be. Just like what Lulubell did, or maybe it was her. For instance in the form of the inspector.
His Judgement would turn on Cross being as crude as innocence can be and unforgiving just like with Suman. Only Judgement is equip typ so it dont make him a fallen one.
Still it doesnt say if hes dead or alive, knowing Hoshino she will bring him back. Either flashbacks or in real. He must have been a close friend to the 14th.
(Another sugestion, what if Mana was a Noah as well. And that Cross was Manas Noah new host?) It would not explain the visitor but it might explain why Judgement turned on him.
Also would it not explain the phrase that Allen might have to kill a loved one?
So the visitor might be Road or even the Earl collecting a new Noah. Just like when they came for Skin.
Anyways in some twisted way you might have 2 Noah/exorsists. Allen/14th & Cross/Mana.
I believe that its Allens innocence that keeps the Noah in check that it wont totaly take over.
Or perhaps Cross didnt join the Earl but ran to hide. But then there still is the visitor.
I like to believe that Road is not actualy on the Earls side eventualy. All elements are there to make the bad girl turn good. She seems to love the main good guy in some weird way. And she did not kill any of his friends tho im sure she could have without even trying.
So if she was the one that visited Cross to awaken Manas Noah and if she joined the 14ths side as well it would make sence.
That would explain the visitor, why Judgement fired on Cross, ( he did make his weapon ready to fire so he did recognize the visitor as a threat), also it would suport bookmans thought that Cross ran and that hes in hiding and wont return and that he didnt join the Earl.
Anyways its my thoughts about the subject and i did take all thats said in the story and put it in this theory.
Last edited by ca12nag3; May 26, 2009 at 12:21 PM.
I always thought that the third side is Cross and the 14th, and later some surprise characters who helped them from background for exemple Road from noah's and Komui from the order (don't ask me why these two are so suspicios for me )
Cross knows too mutch, and not just about the third side, don't forget the orders secret researche's, and probably a lot of other dirty things so he could have a lot of enemy.
-For the central, if they just recently found out that Cross isn't on there side, and this is just one motive, they could have many other.
-That the noah's wouldn't let there the innocent it's a very good point, so noah's out?!
Oh i almost forgot.......an angry women?-we are talking about Cross so it's not impossible ))
ca12nag3's theory is very interesting, it's a little bit drastic, but i like it.
Well why i put Mana into this theory is that for 1 Mana & 14th are brother, maybe like Cyril and Tyki. Both Noahs.
Also clearly from Skin Borics story he made sure that when he turned Noah that all of his past was dead. And showing in the Noah family is that everything is artificial. Nobody is related in the real way.
So its very plausible that all relations are Noah wise.
So the real Tyki and Cyril arnt brothers but their Noahs are, same way goes for Mana and the 14th.
Would also work this way for the Road & Allen love thingy.
If 14th was able to transfer to Allen it might be possible that Mana transfered to Cross. Cross knew Allen was going to be the 14th. Also Cross took over Allen imidiatly. He could have been there for an transfer of the Noah. Specialy cause Cross knew the importance of Mana for the 14th and the cause. If anything Cross is devoted to its the cause of winning the war. And everyone knows he doesnt play by the rules. Maria is a good example of that.
Another + point for a Noah-Cross would be that a fatal headinjury would not kill him, nor would the loss of large quantities of blood.Noah are near immortal. Only innocence can kill them.
Well thats basicaly all the suport i can think off for a Cross-noah.
My reply to cristina23 is in the middle of this btw.
The Order is an organization comprised of many departments and would need tons of people to do various jobs. (There's the Science Division, Finder division, Medical division, Communication division and some others) so after the loss of the ones from the attack, they would need to replace manpower in order to continue to function effectively by shifting members from other branches around, so it's not like they have more scientists than before. It's just that some of them getting more of the screen time than they used to. There's not quite enough characters to fully populate another faction yet, if you count only characters that have already made appearances. (And the number of characters so far is nothing near Naruto, Bleach or One Piece, which gave them plenty of opportunities for more factions, but not really)
Besides, if Judgement was the one who tried to kill Cross, why did the body disappear? And there's also Bookman's reaction to Cross' disappearance, which strongly hints that Cross is being targeted by something, which could be the hidden side according to my previous post.
he was supposed to be with the 14th when he died). And from the Earl's and the other Noah's reaction to the 14th, I doubt if any other Noah turned traitor as well. I'll talk more about this at the end of this post.
Btw, the whole point in moving to the new Headquarters and using the Ark as transportation was to keep the Earl from knowing their location. I doubt the Earl currently knows where it is. Road can't just waltz in there with her door if she doesn't know where it is either. The main reason the Earl knows where their old one was could be because it had been the same one for 100 years.
Even if you count the fact that the Earl could make an Ark gate at the Asian headquarters, that place is still built like a maze so it would be pretty easy to seal it off and move out through their own Ark gate. (How the Level 3 found it in the first place is beyond me)
Note that to Road, her 'family' is special to her so I don't think she would easily change sides unless the other Noahs do the same. She also seems to like the Earl a lot too because he's the only one besides Allen that she'd kiss.
As for her coming to visit Cross, I repeat what I said earlier about the Earl and co. not knowing where the new Headquarter is. Also, why put the guards to sleep instead of killing them off or something.
And about Bookman, I don't think he knows the details of Cross' murder (because Leverrier, Komui and the Generals are keeping it secret to not alarm everyone else) though he surmised that the man is no longer with them according to the rumors of Cross returning to Central and from the dangerous information Cross revealed that night.
Central should have known by now that Cross wasn't really on their side, though you're right about there possibly being other motives. Maybe Bookman was knew it was Central all along... But why wait to kill him until after he talks to Allen is also another weird point.
Hahaha! XD You may be right about Cross being killed by a woman.
Actually, the 17th manga volume also has an omake that says Cross was killed because of his debts. (A joke obviously)
at this picture, they could even be twins. They're not like Tyki and Sheryl/Cyril who are only related as family because they are Noah. But then, the 14th isn't quite a Noah like the others because
- he wasn't supposed to exist at all - the fanbook says that he was an irregular in the Noah family that is made only out of 13 members (even the Earl doesn't know how he came to exist)
- his shadow is different from the smiling one Skinn and Tyki saw.
Since they're twins and seem very close, it could be that the 14th didn't kill Mana like Skinn killed those that knew him. Maybe not all Noah kill those they knew (Tyki could have known those orphans from before as an example)
Even if Mana is a Noah as you say, I doubt Cross actually went near Mana during the whole time he was monitoring him, which would be problematic if Mana were to try and transfer his memories to Cross. (Cross only approached Allen after the boy killed the Akuma after all and if he was keeping close to Mana in a distance that would allow Noah memories to be transferred, Cross would have been close enough to stop whatever killed Mana)
Erm, I don't really get what you're trying to say by the "Also Cross took over Allen imidiatly" part, but there's no way Cross is a Noah. Another proof would be when he and the Earl met again. They're conversation doesn't seem to suggest Cross is a Noah at all and the 'So it was you' comment later was when the Earl thought he was the one who carried the will of the 14th, or maybe he connected Cross with something the 14th did.
Last edited by TitaniumChloride; May 27, 2009 at 01:50 AM.
Ive retyped over 3 times now to respond to whatyour saying but ill just leave it at it i dont want to get angry or in a fight.
Is Cyril a Noah?? Why I ask this is because I haven't had any memory that mentioned Cyril is a Noah. I don't think I even seen his Noah side yet. Just because Tyki is a Noah doesn't mean Cyril is a Noah because they are brother. Maybe like 14th and Mana where 14th is a Noah while Mana is a human.
It says " a new noah appears" n I think it refers to Cyril/ Sherrill (?)