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No, that doesn't really show anything. I take that page as Yukimura is trying to get him to play seriously, so he say that. It's just assumption. You can of course call this assumption, too, but that's the whole point of my argument. It's not clear. Since it's not clear, if we exclude Kimjima for not being clear, we should also exclude Yukimura.
Unless there's a solid indisputable evidence, it's an assumption. It's really simple. That page mights shows that they are even in term of score. My page could show that Fuwa had at least win some points from Yukimura. Because it's not really confirm by manga, we're assuming things.
And take care to explain of how possibly Yukimura could have win that point. He can hit ball back without hitting it now?
There's also a matter of Mirror Eyes. As far as the manga goes, it clearly says Fuwa had it. It would then be assumption that say that it's only because that tech is a dream because that's not confirm in the manga. The manga page stated he have it, really, it's that simple.
Since Fuwa had mirror eyes, and Mirror Eyes seemed to > Yips. And Dream Yips> Mirror Eyes. Doesn't that mean Dream Yips can affected things that Yips can not? Why does that cannot include PoP+Black Aura? Simply answer: assumption. Assumption is everywhere in the tier list, and I don't see a it as a reason to remove any characters.
And for Echizen, what you stated of already touch him is the assumption. We actually never knows how it works exactly. Unless you can find a page in the manga that explicitly stated that, it's just assumption. I do think it's reasonable assumption.
To be clear, I'm of an opinion we should not remove characters from tier list. As long s we don't remove characters, I couldn't care less about this argument, because I'm the one who hadmade several of these assumption to begin with. I'm not sure if what's your stance on that, Airgrimes.
Last edited by -Ken-; May 16, 2013 at 07:11 PM.
Honestly Ken use common sense, its part of story writing that an author doesn't have to have an outside character shout who's winning by having one character tell the other to get serious.
You don't ask your opponent to get serious if your ass is getting kicked.
Also, Ken, your page doesn't show that the ball went past Yukimura. The ball doesn't go past him. Imo, Yukimura hit it back in that awkward stance considering he has bit back shots like COOL Drive and Rai in awkward stances I don't think its unusual for Yuki to hit back that shot.
The ball isn't shown on the page so we don't know if Yuki lost that point. That's a fact.
So use common sense too. Why would Fuwa asking if he should put on more handicap when he's just lost a freakin point? Now that should I be asking you about using common sense. Like "Yeah, I just lost a point because you hit a ball back, but I'm a nice guy so I'll give you more handicap" or "I just win a point although I already had a handicap on. Should I give you more handicap". According to your "common sense", which one make more sense?
It could be on that line, but really, which one is more of a stretch?
Looking at the page, it sure doesn't look like the ball is heading toward Yukimura, unless Yukimura can warp like Rai. Thinking Yukimura hitting a ball back in a awkward stance when the manga doesn't show it is a lot more of assumption than what I assume. The fact is that the manga shows Fuwa hitting the ball 100%. Then you assume that Yukimura hit the ball back somehow because that's what you want to believe and is not unconfirmed by the manga. I don't think he hit the ball back at all. Looking at the ball projectile and thinking Yukimura have to move more than he wants to to return a ball doesn't even make sense. He doesn't have to move that much.
In that page, Yukimura just comes down from the top panel that shows he jump smash a ball. That's just him falling down part. Unless Yukimura can move in mid air, which probably would also be mention.
So yeah, the way I saw Yukimura getting that point is that he can stop time so that they can continue rally after standing still or he can fly in the air.
I'm not saying Yukimura is getting his ass kick. I'm the thinking the score is around equal at that time, like 3-3 or 4-4 or something like that. It doesn't confirm that Yukimura is winning either.
And don't dodge my last question that's clearly aim at you. There's also Mirror Eyes matter. As long as even 1 of those facts remained, there will be doubt regarding Yukimura ability that we'll have to assume.
Last edited by -Ken-; May 17, 2013 at 08:44 AM.
^Would you compliment someone when that person can't even return your first shot?
Also, I think the top panel is a serve. (The one on the top left is also Yukimura btw (shorts whereas Fuwa is wearing pants), probably dashing forward to meet Fuwa's return.)
In fact, I would argue that it's worse than concrete results because you don't know who exactly Kimijima beat, or what the score was (I'm sure you would agree that there's a difference in whether he destroyed e.g. Tohno 6-0 or just barely edged him out in a tiebreaker).
So no, Kimijima has not really shown more than those players, except that his face got some more panels than theirs.
Last edited by Kaoz; May 17, 2013 at 09:28 AM.
You don't see all part of the court. I take the backhand motion as Yukimura coming down from the air from his smash. The hand that Yukimura smash the ball with even fit the leg that fall down to the ground first. The motion makes sense that way for me. Try jump smash and then try backhand hit and see which motion is more similar to the one Yukimura made. The ball can definitely go into the text box. Not like anyone give much or any comment when Kimijima makes a curve ball.
I doubt it's a serve, looking at Yukimura position, it's probably a smash and not a serve.
It's obviously only 1 of Akutsu and Ryoga who start it. If we're not sure, then it's unconfirmed facts, so it can't be used according to you.
Last edited by -Ken-; May 17, 2013 at 10:36 AM.
But reasonable assumption is what is needed. You're so narrow-minded and you're getting more and more so.
Kaidoh being able to beat Kirihara is entirely an assumption due to the Gyro Laser combo only facing BM!Kirihara and not DM!Kirihara.
You also believe Kaidoh > Yanagi the last time we discussed. Something you definitely stated. This is also entirely an assumption.
I don't really think its reasonable but it all depends on other people too.
You yourself will refuse evidence but eventually when 4-5 people arrive saying its different then I will change my stance on that Ken. I'll acknowledge that its likely I need to look at it from a different angle. That is my stance.
And you really don't need to waste your time putting words in bold all the time.
Also, from the stance, we can't even determine whether not that is a backhand or forehand from Yuki. Just look at Yuki closely.
Then, we see a panel of the sun. Implying some time has passed after that point. Its likely the next page has no relation to that point considering Konomi decided to draw the freaking sun panel in the midst of the match.
So no, it can't be confirmed who won that point.
And I'm not asking your stance of whether or not Fuwa actually win a point or lose a point against Yukimura. Those are not my main points at all. My main points are that there is so many things that are unclear about that match.As such, it illustrated how unclear Yukimura is right on in term of tier list. And as long as you yourself even say the points in that match are "uncertain", it really just further my point.
What I'm asking you stance on is that should people like Kimjima be in the tier list or not. Not all this whole Yukimura thing. I use Yukimura as example of how unclear things are used to assume stuff anyways. You then misinterpret my point and try to argue for something I don't really care for and in the end fail to show that I match that I thought is unclear is clear. That match is a lot worst than Kimijima match. We at least got score outline in Kimijima match. We hardly know anything about that match.
Yes, it can't be confirm who win or lose the point. So "it's not certain".
If Yukimura was winning 3-0 or something, though, it doesn't make sense that all that Fuwa would say "I'll give you another handicap although you're way ahead of me". If anything, I think they're probably even in term of overall points. Of course, I can't prove that. But it look to me as if you can't prove otherwise too. Assumption is everywhere to begin with. So it look like you agree with my main point that "We should just try to assume for stuff that we're not sure on, as long as they're reasonable"
Here's my assumption on that point. I actually think score on the line of 30-30 or 40-30, which is why he praise Yukimura for not being bad for middle schooler for being able to win some points from him, the #11 of all JP representative. I think Yukimura most likely just score that last point before he say that too, which is why he praise Yukimura. Hmm, it could goes something like that too.
Yukimura just score a point, resulting in him saying that Yukimura play better tennis than he thought.
Fuwa just score point and ask if Yukimura wants another handicap from him or not, as he feels like that last one is not enough.
That's how I would assume the match is going at that point. Or maybe the score is not that way, but I think the scoring on those pages probably go something along those line.
It is you who have failed to show the extent in which Negotiation can really be compared to other abilities of other characters.
You brought up Fuwa and went as far as to call me out on the Mirror eyes issue so you weren't being clear.
Honestly, you were wrong in implying the Yuki or Fuwa situation is the same as the Kimijima situation.
We at least know Fuwa has Closed Eyes. We just know that Kimijima can treat the likes of Kite and Marui like a bitch in a match.
But honestly, that doesn't narrow him down even slightly. He ranges anywhere from Atobe up to the likes of Irie.
Whereas Fuwa, we know he got his ass-kicked by Yukimura, and can assume he is the best individually of the 11-20 so he is above Date and Hakamada.
I agree Kimijima is nearly impossible to discuss as of yet. His Negotiation abilities aren't all that clear either. This is my stance.
If you start reading the discussion from the very beginning and not just read the post in the middle that I'm just putting the argument out, it will be much clearer.
So you think Kimijima is clear, but Yukimura, even with all the unclear things in his latest match, are okay although where he is right now is unclear too with his Dream Yips, even we don't know how his new Yips works, the condition to activate them, and so forth? Ok. I'm done.
I think Yukimura right now is hard to impossible to discuss too, because he got a new tech.
Hey, it's not like last tournament have only characters with clear power level.
There's Oni, whom many people, myself include gauge wrongly. We only knows he had BJK and that he can 6-0 3rd court. That's pretty unclear. If you think it's clear where he is with only evidence before, look at where he is right now in the tier list.
There's also Irie, the person who act on the court that is not clear at all about where his power level lies. We know he's stronger than #20, probably to the point where he can 6-0 him if wanted to. But really, we don't know how high he can go up to either. He can go from possibly #6-19. Is that wide enough?
Then there's the bsity of WoK. We don't know how and what Beast Syncho can do at all. They're also there.
So, explain to me how clear those four players are in the context of last contest. This means only using chapter not including Oni latest match. Go all out on Irie and WoK pair. But I don't think where they are is very clear either.
But of course, it's fine to include those characters because you want to and exclude Kimijima because you want to. There seem to be a very loose slope on this. But it's you guys choice.
Last edited by -Ken-; May 17, 2013 at 07:33 PM.
Stop mixing the tournament and the tier list, the two are not the same.
I also told you that you can make a case for Kimijima that doesn't involve his status as No. 7 and we can discuss that and place him if we come to an agreement, you're still free to do so.
So, then I take it you're fine with Kimjima possibly being in the tournament, right? Since they're different.
What's wrong with simply high base stats? Really? That's simply how the case it is with many HS. It's just the way it is. I can get why you don't know simply high base stats, but that's just how Konomi made his characters. And all those curving shot and stuff that Kimijima do prove his point as that. His position shows how high his base stats is. If you don't accept it, then yeah, I can't do anything. That match strongly suggest that Kimijima have high base stats. I'm using position as #7 to show how high his base stats is relative to other (1st stringer) character. I never once use this to him to beat characters outside of 1st stringer. Hence why I put him conservatively. We knows Kimijima is above Tohno, we don't know by how much. We knows Tohno is above Ochi, but we just don't know how much. Since we do know that they're above 1st stringer in rank, we know where they are in the tier list at least approximately.
No matter how much you like or don't like using # as proof of base stats, the # ranking of 1st stringer are facts straight from the manga that's closest to official tier list we've gotten from Konomi. I knows some people try not to believe this tier list, and argue 11-20 have set number and position. But 9-10, 8-10, 2-6 pair just mess all those up. You can of course assume all kind of stuff, but until confirmation is given, the most reasonable assumption is that # does reflect character strength relative to other people in the 1st stringer.
Here's an example. Does Kimijima really show more than, say, Date or Hakamada? Do you think he would lose to those two? We saw a full match consdiering of 3 set from Konomi. If there's a clear gap that doesn't seem to be there, we can safely assume that Kimijima just have the base stats to back up those difference to put him above those guys. I think that's a reasonable enough assumption. We can at least assume that Kimijima had enough base stats to be above other people that those two beat as well. It's all just relative.
And if you don't want me mixing the two, Irie's case is still there. We don't know how far up to he can go at all. Explain Irie anyways. You can really take Irie as "Being around AK! Atobe level in Singles" or "Being above Atobe due to his latest match, but don't know by how much". If it's the 1st one, Irie should be drop from where he is right now. If it's the second one, he shows much less than Kimijima, so they should be drop together. We got 1 page of him shooting that fast ball. That's it. We knows he can moped the floor with #20. I think all G10 can probably do the same if just due to G10 are completely different rank from 11-20 thing that Konomi had going on.
Last edited by -Ken-; May 18, 2013 at 09:49 AM.
Therefore you think Mutsu should be able to hammer Yanagi like Mitsuya did.
I have no problem with this logic. Its entirely assumption and it bothers me since it is you who is angered most by things that are entirely assumption and you seem to selectively decide what is reasonable assupmption and what isn't.
That is going to be the main issue regarding Kimijima, Oni, Duke, Byoudouin, Ryoga, Irie, Tanegashima and Tokugawa no matter what right now. More so than other characters.
So I'd rather we omitted them from the Tourney personally.
He and Tohno had no doubles prowess either. So it seemed quite clear that they were too individual beasts that played Doubles together.
They didn't really use any combos.
Date and Hakamada showed more though. Remember we saw their biggest techniques whilst we didn't see Kimijima go beyond 60%.
We pretty much saw all Hakamada had to offer which was an awesome move, but nothing like so with Kimijima.
I never said that Ken. You've misunderstood and I don't know how you could.
You used Yips as an example to be the same as Negotiation.
Yips and Negotiation is not the same in terms of clarity.
We know the concept clearly you need to engage in long rallies for it to destroy you. We know that Auras can break out of it.
What do we know about Negotiation? Nowhere near as much as we do with Yips/Dream Yips.
I even said that Dream Yips is unclear myself, but it is absolutely not the same as Negotiation. We know that it can kill the opponent from rallies, put you to sleep, we understand that similar to Yips whether Yukimura has won or lost points in the match, it can still activate.
With Negotation however, its Kimijima bribing the opponent... We don't know how it would work on everyone.
We know Yips/DreamYips shouldn't work if Yukimura is dominated so bad he can never engage in a rally.(TnK Ryoma showed us that)
How could Kimijima bribe Ryoma, a rich brat who has everything he needs? How could he bribe Atobe, a rich brat with everything he needs?
Both players with too much pride for a fixed match.
Yips and Negotiation aren't the same. That was my point.
I personally would like Kimijima on the tier list, but not in the tournament.
Also, I wouldn't use Negotation when discussing for Kimijima just yet.
You need to relax, ease up and go over things carefully if this is how you're going to be in the tournament.
Last edited by Airgrimes; May 18, 2013 at 01:26 PM.
So Duke can possibly beat Byoudonin due to your logic, right? since # doesn't represent your power.
---------- Post added at 01:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:38 PM ----------
If you're fine with Kimjima being on tier list, then I guess that's all good with me. That's the main thing I don't agree about. Just make sure other characters with unclear power level don't make it into tournament too and it's all fine.
Last edited by -Ken-; May 18, 2013 at 02:12 PM.
You're going to have to vouch for those characters yourself who you don't wish to see in the tournament.
I can relate that you don't want Yukimura in the tournament since we don't know the extent to which you can defend from dying against Dream Yips.
Or how strong Yukimura has been revealed to be, since if Marui went out of his way to cure him, its common sense Yuki will be stronger when he is fully healed.
You have to remember in the last tournament, Oni only had BJK and we had no idea that 10ao means you die. We only knew that it is a big advantage.
We didn't know Oni had Kishin!Mode, he didn't have TnK yet, so although I voted for Oni in the end, I can understand that people voted for Sanada who only had BA and 5ao to beat Oni at that time.
Right now though, Oni is NOT in the same situation as Kimijima Ken.
We know he has TnK, BJK, Kishin, 10ao so he has far more clear than Kimijima. They are different levels of unclear.
Irie has WoI at least but I can understand your point. Irie has at LEAST played Singles once, technically twice its hard to count the Revolution matches personally so I'm not sure on the Irie and Kimijima situation.
WoK? You're actually right. We don't know the extent of Beast Synchro. However honestly, shouldn't we AT LEAST give them the benefit of the standard Synchro power? Since we know its Synchro at least. It would make no sense that Beast Synchro is any weaker than actual Synchro.
Ability is my logic. Ability has always been my logic.
No.14 Hakamada Izou more or less wrecked Nationals!Tooyama.
Now, 108th Hadoukyuu > No.13 Ban Rikiya but Super Megaton Deluxe Tornado > 108th Hadoukyuu
This completely contradicts the order of individual ability.
That's just a simple example I could go on.
Right now, Oni is the absolute beast that Konomi just throw every sick thing he can think of at him.
We could give WoK the benefits of Syncho at the minimum. Not that that many people are doing JUST that, though. The point is that it's not clear how powerful all of thse people are, which from what I've read, you seem to agree on most of them.
For Oni, I'm not talking about now. I'm talking about back then. Here's my point on Oni
1. Is it understandable people don't vote for Oni back then? Yes indeed.
2. Why is it? Because Oni doesn't show to be this strong yet. His power level is not clear. Yet the tournament organizer decided to include him in the tournament anyways. If they think the extent of Oni power can be measure, they're simply wrong. It just can't be measure at least using the evidence we had back then. That is my point.
There have been people with unclear power level in the last tournament. So I'm wondering why is that used as a base to keep people from participating in this tournament.