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Thread: Did Kubo forget about this?

  1. #1
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member jiraiyanindo's Avatar
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    Did Kubo forget about this?

    I was rereading some chapters and I discovered something strange.

    Ok, so we know Aizen was kept in MUKEN as a prisoner....scan below:





    Well, I was reading Chapter 523 and it turns out that Kenpachi and Unohana had their death match in MUKEN also.....scan below:





    I mean, this is after Aizen is defeated so he must've been down there. Shunsui said Aizen was jailed for two years.

    Unohana and Zaraki were both Kenpachi's so they were the strongest. Why would they have their huge deathmatch in the same place that Aizen was jailed?

    And my last questions, how come they couldn't feel Aizen's reiatsu? How come Aizen never felt their reiatsu?

    Was this so kind of plothole? Maybe kubo forgot that he already used Muken before he decided that this is where he was going to put Aizen?

    Just thought this would be interesting to discuss. Thank you.

  2. #2
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Fox666's Avatar
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    Re: Did Kubo forget about this?

    It says it stretches for infinity... so I guess they were only at different places inside of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by IChallengeYou! View Post
    TOBI IS OBITO

    did you say something about timelines?! naruto ate it NOM NOM NOM IT'S GONE.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member eefrit's Avatar
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    Re: Did Kubo forget about this?

    Aizen was on the 8th level. Unohana and Guy were on another level presumably.

    Want to know who Kubo forgot?

    Haribel.

  4. #4
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Holt's Avatar
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    Re: Did Kubo forget about this?

    Just as eefrit already said, Aizen was at the lowest level while the Kenpachi stand-off happened somewhere else in muken. Its also pretty vast so it can comfortably accommodate both of them (kenpachis and aizen) without them ever meeting.
    As for reiatsu, I dunno if the seals inhibited Aizen's ability to sense reiatsu, but I doubt they did, so its possible he actually sensed their reiatsu during their fight (it seems he was aware of what happened up with the Quincy vs Shinigami battles). On the other hand, the kenpachi's couldn't have sensed Aizen's because he retained his transcendental reiatsu. Its also possible the seals prevented that and well, they were too engrossed in their fight to bother about anything else.

  5. #5
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Did Kubo forget about this?

    Aizen couldn't possibly emit reiatsu himself, because he was sealed. Even if he did, I think it was an infinitely small amount that nobody would normally notice without searching for the traces of it.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Sky Render's Avatar
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    Re: Did Kubo forget about this?

    Quote Originally Posted by eefrit View Post
    Aizen was on the 8th level. Unohana and Guy were on another level presumably.

    Want to know who Kubo forgot?

    Haribel.
    There was nothing else to be said about her. She only appeared to drive home the point that the strongest remaining Arrancar in HM had been defeated so we readers knew how threatening the Wandenreich was.

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  8. #7
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Did Kubo forget about this?

    I don't know. Kubo never hits me as someone who would actually "forget". He usually stretches out his story in a way that isn't even that convenient for him at times, but he is more like "Remember what I told you BC 240? I bring that back up now". He makes readers wait, and has no problem with that. Bleach has been somewhat consistent as a story, considering for how long it has gone on, even when the quality of the story dipped here and there.

    For this specific instance, it is less likely to be a case of overlooking, since it's not from an ancient time back in the past, but from a very recent chapter itself.

  9. #8
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member jiraiyanindo's Avatar
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    Re: Did Kubo forget about this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    Aizen couldn't possibly emit reiatsu himself, because he was sealed. Even if he did, I think it was an infinitely small amount that nobody would normally notice without searching for the traces of it.
    That's a great point. Without emitting reiatsu, it's possible that kenpachi and Unohana could fight without noticing Aizen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    I don't know. Kubo never hits me as someone who would actually "forget". He usually stretches out his story in a way that isn't even that convenient for him at times, but he is more like "Remember what I told you BC 240? I bring that back up now". He makes readers wait, and has no problem with that. Bleach has been somewhat consistent as a story, considering for how long it has gone on, even when the quality of the story dipped here and there.

    For this specific instance, it is less likely to be a case of overlooking, since it's not from an ancient time back in the past, but from a very recent chapter itself.
    I'm usually very hesitant to try and find moments whee a story contradicts itself. I dont usually like those type of readers but I just found it as odd. I mean Shunsui needed to put the keys inside himself in order to even go into muken, albeit that's because Aizen is an enormous threat but you would think that having basically two CRIMINALS, for lack of a better word (unohana and kenpachi) down there with the biggest bad Aizen would be suspect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Holt View Post
    Just as eefrit already said, Aizen was at the lowest level while the Kenpachi stand-off happened somewhere else in muken. Its also pretty vast so it can comfortably accommodate both of them (kenpachis and aizen) without them ever meeting.
    As for reiatsu, I dunno if the seals inhibited Aizen's ability to sense reiatsu, but I doubt they did, so its possible he actually sensed their reiatsu during their fight (it seems he was aware of what happened up with the Quincy vs Shinigami battles). On the other hand, the kenpachi's couldn't have sensed Aizen's because he retained his transcendental reiatsu. Its also possible the seals prevented that and well, they were too engrossed in their fight to bother about anything else.
    Good point. Aizen's sensing abilities seem to be very exceptional right now. Even if unohana and zaraki couldnt sense him, it should be possible that he could sense them. Makes you wonder why Aizen never tried to coax them over to try and get himself released.

  10. #9
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Holt's Avatar
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    Re: Did Kubo forget about this?

    In their crazed state, they'd probably try to kill him or just completely ignore him instead. Asides that, they don't have the keys to his seal and there's a limit to how far they go in aizen's level. I don't think they can actually go into the space he was held, the limit is the entrance it seems.

  11. #10
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Did Kubo forget about this?

    Quote Originally Posted by jiraiyanindo View Post
    I'm usually very hesitant to try and find moments whee a story contradicts itself. I dont usually like those type of readers but I just found it as odd. I mean Shunsui needed to put the keys inside himself in order to even go into muken, albeit that's because Aizen is an enormous threat but you would think that having basically two CRIMINALS, for lack of a better word (unohana and kenpachi) down there with the biggest bad Aizen would be suspect.
    I think there isn't anything specific needed to go into Muken. Either that or the keys Kyouraku used to break Aizen's seal and the key that allows you to get to the place itself are different objects. I myself don't think Unohana or Kenpachi were granted something that could possibly set Aizen free, when the keys were handed to the man who is Captain-Commander by extreme care.
    Central 46 simply assumes that the seals are unbreakable by sheer force, I'm guessing. Not much else that I can think of that makes sense.

  12. #11
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member jiraiyanindo's Avatar
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    Re: Did Kubo forget about this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Holt View Post
    In their crazed state, they'd probably try to kill him or just completely ignore him instead. Asides that, they don't have the keys to his seal and there's a limit to how far they go in aizen's level. I don't think they can actually go into the space he was held, the limit is the entrance it seems.
    In the mangastream translation, it made it seem like where zaraki and unohana fought is the same place where Aizen is held. What makes it more suspect is that Shunsui says that Muken is all darkness and only the innocents can go until the edge of the light but if you look at the scan I posted of zaraki's and unohana's fight, they are both near the entrance at the edge of the light also. They aren't into the darkness.

    To me this implies that they must be in the same area of Muken, considering that the rest of Muken should be total darkness. So it would seem that kubo set Aizen in the same place where zaraki had his fight: the edge of the light before the total darkness of Muken. So the problem would be, did kubo draw it incorrectly? Did he forget that there was a fight in that area before he set up Aizen in that area? Or are there two opposite doors allowing entrance to Muken that have access to light and then the whole middle area of Muken is pure darkness? Idk

  13. #12
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Holt's Avatar
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    Re: Did Kubo forget about this?

    Well its still pretty different. Aizen's area is completely black. You literally can't see into it. Even when he emerges, it looks as though the black is actually tangible and is clinging to him.
    Zaraki and unohana's area isn't nearly that dark. I doubt they were even on level 8 with aizen. They were probably on level 6/7. I don't think kubo forgot or made a mistake either. Muken is pretty vast (almost endless I think) and he had already established that there were 8 levels (with the 8th being last), so it makes sense that there wouldn't be any problems regarding that and he would expect we would know its somewhere else in Muken that the kenpachis fought.

  14. #13
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member jiraiyanindo's Avatar
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    Re: Did Kubo forget about this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Holt View Post
    Well its still pretty different. Aizen's area is completely black. You literally can't see into it. Even when he emerges, it looks as though the black is actually tangible and is clinging to him.
    Zaraki and unohana's area isn't nearly that dark. I doubt they were even on level 8 with aizen. They were probably on level 6/7. I don't think kubo forgot or made a mistake either. Muken is pretty vast (almost endless I think) and he had already established that there were 8 levels (with the 8th being last), so it makes sense that there wouldn't be any problems regarding that and he would expect we would know its somewhere else in Muken that the kenpachis fought.
    Interesting. I thought there were 8 levels to the underground prison system aka "Hell" for SS and that Muken was the 8th level; the lowest level. I didn't think there were 8 levels of Muken. So, it seemed to me that if they were in Muken, they were therefore in the 8th level of the SS Hell or prison.

  15. #14
    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Holt's Avatar
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    Re: Did Kubo forget about this?

    Quote Originally Posted by jiraiyanindo View Post
    Interesting. I thought there were 8 levels to the underground prison system aka "Hell" for SS and that Muken was the 8th level; the lowest level. I didn't think there were 8 levels of Muken. So, it seemed to me that if they were in Muken, they were therefore in the 8th level of the SS Hell or prison.
    Yes you're right, muken is what the 8th level is called. My bad. If they fought in Muken, then they were indeed on aizen's level. Its still practically endless though and there are some differences between the kenpachi fight location and aizen's location, mostly the degree of black/darkness.
    Last edited by Holt; March 27, 2015 at 10:23 AM.

  16. #15
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member jiraiyanindo's Avatar
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    Re: Did Kubo forget about this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    I think there isn't anything specific needed to go into Muken. Either that or the keys Kyouraku used to break Aizen's seal and the key that allows you to get to the place itself are different objects. I myself don't think Unohana or Kenpachi were granted something that could possibly set Aizen free, when the keys were handed to the man who is Captain-Commander by extreme care.
    Central 46 simply assumes that the seals are unbreakable by sheer force, I'm guessing. Not much else that I can think of that makes sense.
    Good points. I wonder if Central 46 gave the keys for opening the gates of Muken to Shunsui, who then let unohana and zaraki into it so they could have their Kenpachi fight. Then how would Shunsui know when the fight was over? I agree that it wouldn't be such a smart move to give the keys to zaraki or unohana, esp considering that Shunsui intuitively figured that only one of them would leave Muken alive.

    I think they keys to the gates of Muken and the keys to Aizen's seals are indeed different, so I don't think zaraki could've freed Aizen. I wonder tho if Aizen were in the same place, could he have manipulated zaraki/unohana? Kinda how he manipulated Juhabach's sense of time when he visited Aizen before destroying SS.

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