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Not sure if anyone else made this kind of thread but...
Have anyone actually noticed how much the author actually focused on Ichigo knowing fighting techniques? Lemme correct that, I mean how much he focused on fighting techniues in the middle of the manga. Now look at it now, it's just a battle of POWER, just like in DBZ. They just threw the whole "battle experience > power" out the window. *Same thing happening with Naruto but let's not get off-topic*
I dunno about you but I would rather see more kickass moves/techniques the character do like when Ichigo was trying to get his Ban Kai rather than just a battle of brawl.
Last edited by Koen; July 14, 2008 at 06:02 PM.
Well DBZ kind of inspired A LOT of Manga-ka and its kind of hard make up ur own manga without taking ideas from other Manga-ka. I understand wat u mean but u have to understand that just because the manga has "POWER" and energy auras doesnt mean Bleach and Naruto r turning into DBZ
I agree there really is only so much you can do in a fight-oriented manga, if the main character didn't get any stronger to be able to beat the current bad guy it wouldn't be a very interesting story line, and yeah a lot of manga-ka grew up on Toriyama's Dragon Ball and base many of their ideas losely on their manga they loved growing up
Bleach has had this happen MUCH less than naruto so the fans of it can count themselves lucky. I guess most naruto fans are blind to the reality
Well the point is that we fans can't do anything about it. So you can only stop reading/watching the manga or look if it will gonna be better in the future. I still like Naruto/Bleach and for me they are still better than DBZ.
All fighting anime/manga like Bleach and Naruto will end up resembling DBZ, it's just a matter of how bad. There is a point where the power-ups become rediculous. I don't find anything wrong with the whole Hollow thing, but if Ichigo were to unlock another "stage" of his zanpakutou, then I would be pretty dissapointed. Strength will always be the most important factor with these shows, but the strategy is not completely lost. Look at what is happening recently with Hitsugaya. I'd attribute that to his smarts and more than just blind strength.
I think Bleach is much more alike to DBZ than Naruto. Because in Bleach, all characters are constantly gaining more and more raw power and using it to win. In Naruto, if you leave apart the fight of Naruto vs Sasuke (which is all like a Goku vs Vegeta but with annoying kids lol) there are lots of fights where a ninja is overpowered and wins because of its smart fighting. The clearest example is all the fights of Shikamaru and most fights of Naruto. There are times where combats seem to be a second DBZ, but I think it has much strategy moments than Bleach.
a fighting manga like this always will focus on strength... they apparently must gain more power and such...
as for technics... kubo tite never focused directly on technics or have you ever seen them train an actual technic in detail?
i never did... you saw them train the bankai - which isn't a technic, but a level of control over the zanpakuto - by power.
you saw ichigo struggling for the shinigami-powers, but no technics. chad was seen training to endure the power his armor has, hime trained to get her heart stable enough to call her guardians everytime. but they did not train a technic.
at least not directly but by fighting experiences, for example the training of ichigo with urahara for getsuga tenshi, which he already was able to use but not by own will.
about the battlexp > power thing: they did definitly not throw it completely over board, but at the current situation bringing that factor out is a bit extremely hard, since they need the power first to at least get into the battle a bit... or you need to tell me how you can defeat somebody only by having done a million battles against some little puppy and win against a bear >.< not only battleexp matters, it's the combination
the big diffrence between DB (there is no Z in the manga! dammit, why does everybody always call it DBZ?!?!?!?!) and Bleach is that the enimies don't pop out of nowhere like the androids or cell and boo in DB..... they were always there, they had schemed out the former enemies, had there way and now are to be fought. As in DB there were no deep thoughts behind it (at least not that deep from vol17 onwards) here the movements of the story aren't to be predicted precisely and that easy...
i can't comment about the comparisons made to naruto, because i never read it... the art i saw (many coverarts and one chap) just look cruel for me :/
@ryderdm3: i don't think he can even release another zanpakuto 'stage', because ban-kai already means something bout 'full release'/'final release' (afaik, can't find the proove right now)
@Bartserk: leave alone that the decision whom battles who is a tactical/strategical decision in itself you're right that bleach doesn't have that much battle-strategy/tactic involved... could be better
No ttxdragon, you are correct, it does mean full/complete release. If they ever were to advance their zanpakutou's further, then I would find it incredibly lame and stupid. All fighting shows will be about power, it's just a matter of how they handle it. I think Naruto and Bleach are handling it quite well. In both shows we've yet to see the full strength of most of the characters. Where as in DBZ we knew what everyone could do right off the bat and then it was just a big race back and forth to see who could be the strongest. That's what lead to all the rediculous power boosts that dumbed the show down. That won't happen in bleach and naruto.
I don't think it's turning into DBZ (or DB if you perfer). The characters in Bleach are getting stronger and the fights are becoming larger in scale, that doen't mean its suddenly becoming DB/DBZ. Bleach is Bleach. Naruto is Naruto. The Dragon Ball series is the Dragon Ball series. All different stories, art styles, and fighting styles.
The "battle of power" thing is just not true. Power and speed must be at close enough to keep up in order for battle experience and strategy to have an impact, this was true even in Rurouni Kenshin. They work in conjuction with one another in both Naruto and Bleach. Right now Ichigo is not having a problem, skill wise. It's that he can't keep up in terms of strength and speed, so he's trying to aquire more of both. I really don't have a problem with that.
But even if the rest of Ichigo's training throughout the rest of the Beach manga was all strength and speed based it would still be nothing like DB/DBZ because in Bleach each character uses abilities unique to them, adding both strategy and variety to the fights. In DBZ the different abilities were all some form of fireball or beam.
Naruto isn't even worth commenting on. It has way more in common with Ninja Scroll than with DB/DBZ and Naruto has always trained for skills rather than strength or speed so I don't even think the "battle of power" thing even applies.
In my opinion, bleach is not even that close to DBZ and yeah i agree with everyone and many does think so that
naruto is turning into BDZ, but also not that much as i think naruto has its own way and cannot be compared to the techinques in DBZ and for god's sake, In DBZ they could blow a whole planet with one finger!!! see the difference!!
I've never actually seen DBZ - what you say??? - but I have to agree that it would indeed be ridiculous if Ichigo unlocked some secret level above Bankai. I had this debate with a cousin the other day and basically it came down to:
the greatest hero is only the greatest hero - because he (or she) faced the most powerful villian.
if ichigo unlocks this 'Armagedon' level - it ruins the REAL hero element of the story - in a word - STRUGGLE - and the will to overcome it.
Yes the "powering up" style is similar in general to what was done in DB.
In the early years of DB all of the characters pretty much gained advantage in a fight by using diferent and more powerfull techniques that were unique to them, but Goku always had that plus that later on the manga Toriyama explained to be a trait of the Saiyan that in every battle that they would come close to death the saiyajins would become more powerfull.
In the Gohan stage of DB the only ones that kept gaining power (at least in such large quantities) just by pushing their bodies to the limit were the saiyajins, the other character continued gaining strengh throught other means like training diferent techniques or fusion and so on.
Now I ask of you, what manga doesn´t resemble DB in some way, especially in power-ups? I mean Toriyama wrote the book on powering-ups. EX: Pushing your body to limits, learning diferent techiniques, fusion!!, even magically (grownup Gohan) by unlocking potential power, ETC. What is left?
As I said before, every manga resembles DB in general, because all of them are unique in their own way. Ex: Bleach - Shinigami uses Zapakutous that channel their inner reiatsu into fighting, Naruto - They have the special trait of having bijuu inside some ninjas (maybe influence of fusion from DB).
So there´s plenty of room for mangakas to make their own concepts without copying classics, but ALWAYS inspired by them.
EDIT: Regarding the "above bankai level", i think there will be no such thing. Ichigo doesn´t know Zangetsu that well yet. I mean for example in the bankai of Byakuya (sp?) I could clearly distiguish two levels for that bankai, Senbonzakura and Senbonzakura Kageyoshi. Do you think that when he first got his bankai he got all that at once? NO. It takes time to master bankai and take full advantage of it´s power. In my opinion Ichigo is far from learning all about his Bankai and Zangetsu himself. One more thing, I really don´t believe that Byakuya is gonna stay at those two "levels", as he and Renji said to Ichigo, there takes a lot of time for knowing how to use the Zanpakutou properly, so there might be techiniques that aren´t full developed in the bankai, so he didn´t use.
FLFC - On the different forms of Bankai, I totally agree--after all, Tensa Zangetsu in it's current form is focused almost unilaterally on speed, without any real increase in the other three aspects of a shinigami's power (sword arts, hand-to-hand and Demon Arts). My guess is that you can consider your Bankai mastered when you can freely manipulate it's form in a way that changes which of the four aspects are enhanced at the cost of the others.
But on the other hand, Byakuya trained with his Bankai normally (that is, for ten years after he attained it) in order to refine it, while Ichigo has had his for, what, a couple of months? Considering there isn't much time left until Aizen goes after Karakura, he's not going to find a second form without some ridiculous plot twist, so that's out.
Keeping that in mind, I think this "new form->better function" thing is pretty DBZ-ish--and before anyone says anything, the difference between this and Luffy's Gears is that they're much more innovative. After all, the main thing that Gear Second does is make Luffy's body more capable of using a move that he could still do without it, by raising his blood pressure. It's not just a simple "more energy=better fighting" type of power-up--which is what I like about Ichigo and Byakua's Bankai. Conversely, the Hollow mask only seems like a way for him to tap into more of his seemingly bottomless well of reiatsu, which is kinda ho-hum, to be honest.
But I feel like it's only in the fighting that Bleach is really DBZ-ish. In terms of it's visual style, the storytelling, and the characters, it's way different--which is why I like it more. While Bleach is still one of my favorite series, I second ttxdragon: if the fights were more cerebral, it could be even better.