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I find all of this pretty amusing. You do realize that 95% of the uncredited cases happen with Naruto / Bleach / One Piece? Not like there were 20 different spanish scanlators for Saru Lock, but there sure as hell are for Naruto, if not much more.
And in those 95% of the cases, it'd be so very simple to fix the problem.
Let's be somewhat honest here, Sleepyfans (for Bleach / Naruto) and Binktopia (Naruto / One Piece) are currently the dominating groups here. And we get around 15 uncredited international releases weekly. This week there were around 30 probably. Obviously english scanlation groups have no copyrights either, we are pirating the industry somewhat (though I still believe we also serve it to some dagree), but it's the complete disrespect to the people that's shocking and inacceptable.
People who put hours of work into one release, Raw-Providers buying the mags, Jap-Eng translators giving international scanlators the opportunity to even translate and publish at all (easily the most credit-worthy part of the job), and Scanlators, cleaning the shitty WSJ raws, allowedly with sometimes huge discrepancies of quality. (About the anterior comment on international scanlators simply erasing bubbles: it's the damn truth in most cases. And those who take pride in redrawing out the english text, et cetera... well why not take the next step and clean the raws yourself then? Redrawing is definetely the most difficult skill to aquire, if you can that, it's simple to clean on your own rather than rely on a cleaned version as a base for your scan.)
Point of this all, for the big 3, I know of only 2-3 (mainly french) groups that actually clean their speedscans themselves, so all the other 50-60 international "groups" are completely addicted to the english groups. Just show some respect to original scanlators and follow their (in most cases really simple) requests. Sleepyfans: they don't seem to have any contact to the outside world (why would a onemanga-scanlating group even want that) - but just for the respect, do mention them as the original scanlators. Binktopia: please, oh please just put in our credits page. It's so simple of a request. I do think that our raw providers, our translators and our cleaners deserve at least that if you decide to use our scans. If the status quo remains, we'll simply start to throw in HUGE watermarks on our scans, like around 5-10 (lost count) international groups already do. Yes, they put huge and ugly watermarks on the edits we spend our spare time on. Or we'll just follow Eagle's example (Japflap), we just won't allow our scans being used at all anymore.
And Lsshin your point is kind of senseless here. Yes, underground sites that exist by the thousands will still break the "rules" and just publish whatever. But mangahelpers is controllable, and has admins (friends) that do care for scanlators "rights" and wishes, and for this I'm honestly thankful. Keeping mangahelpers free from stealing is the thing that can be done here, let's not care for other sites for the moment.
For the end of my rant, I have a suggestion to make, unokpasabaxaki was the initiator of this on IRC. How about a "mangacops" usergroup? Designated and spunky fans who check the big 3 anyway(let's limit it to that for starters), could at least start reporting, maybe even get some kind of position to contact the affected groups. International stealing happens, like I stated before, on a daily basis. I'm not even mad about it, just disappointed that it still happens. And I'm sure that simple, direct contacting (for first-timers) and explaining to them that what they do is wrong (possibly in their native language, make mangacops as international as possible), would fix the problem in most cases. Give them some staff forums, a thread where they can make a list of groups and how often they were stealing / got contacted to change their behaviour. I'm pretty lenient about consequences, it's okay to just tell first timers. Warn those who do it a second time. And for the third time, exclude them out of the community? I realize that a new usergroup would just mean more work for you guys, especially keeping track of what the "cops" do and if they do it right. It's just a suggestion, take it with a pinch of salt.
Nobody doubted it's fairness up to this point. It hasn't changed, obviously the leechers (or one leecher) just learned to type.Quote:
You do have every right to say whatever you want. But without giving further explanations and examples, we also take your comment as such: utterly worthless.Quote:
An opinion without reasons to it is no opinion at all. You clearly don't know how to debate. And your further talk in conjunctive is especially worthless. "I would do this...", "I would do that...", it's just that, talk. Worthless talk. And I take it personally if you call Japflap a curse. Actually, I take it as a joke. You do know that those guys even delete their old scans to not have any problems with copyrights? Their efforts are endless, and they do respect the original author. Heck, their whole website is worshipping Kishimoto. Just taking it as an example. Other groups who don't allow their scans being used at all most likely have damn good reasons to, too. You are in no position to judge them.
Last edited by zidane; August 31, 2009 at 08:53 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
reading it now..although am not a scanlator.. good enough for information.. I might provide scans sometime this year... thanks for this!
What about forming the Scanlator Industry Association of America?
Suing rogue internatioal scanlation group is an option as well: I'm very curious what the judge will say!
Leechers don't have anything to do with that. We're talking about native language scanlation groups, so I don't see where you're coming out from with this leecher thing. Besides what about explaining who is the leecher who has learnt how to write? Just curious, but perhaps you want to avoid being suspended for personal offences...Quote:
I was referring to bax's statement in which he said I should start my own scanlation group myself and then distributing my work for free. I wasn't talking about examples about my opinions.Quote:
I don't need to show that kind of proof to anyone to support my idea: it was pretty clear, perhaps you should read with more attention.
Not to mention I explained my reasons as well, but one should read what I wrote to know...
I clearly state that groups cannot whine about copyright infringments over something they don't have any rights to begin with, and the spreading of native translated manga is in the interest of the scanlation community. So groups cannot forbid anything, they can only ASK to be given proper credit as a form of courtesy. That's my opinion, I wrote it again for you. Now you can share it or not, but don't go telling around it's worthless while it points out undeniable truths.Quote:
I don't care about Japflap, I was talking in general: scanlators who whines about copyright infringment are a curse to scanlation world, which is based on free translations made by fans for other fans, in order to spread the joy of reading manga. Not in order to have copyright infringment complains!Quote:
Scanlators can't complain because they too are breaching copyrights by posting scans of their favourite manga on internet for free when publishers are losing money because now fans are not buying volumes.
Last edited by -Ren Boy-; August 31, 2009 at 12:39 PM.
This site is mangahelpers, mangacops was just a proposal for a usergroup name, which would look out for stolen scanations. I think I explained it pretty fine, don't just pick out one thing to laugh about it, like I said, learn to debate.Quote:
Fucking right. Your first sentence is quoted for the truth. As for your curiosity, obviously I meant you with the leecher.Quote:
I realize that you were quoting bax. And I also read you saying this:Quote:
The stupidity of that line was just so enormous, I had to comment on it indvidually.Quote:
And I have clearly stated that while we don't whine, we make requests. Not following those requests will result in warnings, eventually in exclusion from this community. Regardless of how morally wrong you think it might be, this is how it works here. Groups can forbid it on mangahelpers. Stealing won't be tolerated. As soon as that happens, mangahelpers goes into my little blackbook along with narutofan and bleach exile. Again, as a mere leecher I don't see you in any position to judge what's right and wrong here. You haven't taken any effort in providing scanlations or translations to the community. You don't matter.Quote:
Yeah, and of course you know best because... oh well, read what I just said above.Quote:
And also, you're only seeing one side. Not only are many manga's not even licensed and won't ever make it to the US market, but also, to some dagree, online scanlations made manga far more popular. It is arguable how much damage we cause in comparison to how much good we do. I dunno about the common leecher, but I for one got into manga because of free scanlations. And now I have a few douzen volumes of my favorite mangas, and planning on buying more.
Ask yourself why huge sites like onemanga (ranked among the top 250 sites of the whole web) still exist and aren't being taken down for storing licensed material.
Last edited by zidane; August 31, 2009 at 01:48 PM.
well should any scanlation group be aware of the "illegal" traffic of copyrighted images licensed by the creator and official group. this whole thread is completely backwards and really has no weight to carry and further than legal group that allows this place to hold threads and downloads of content that would by law be considered "illegal". there's no real defense for a scanlation group's scanlations to be redone and distributed by someone else when their guilty of the same "illegal" action. not being ignorant, just stating a fact when you take something from a magazine and scan it and then make it available for free to everyone online. this isn't my opinion by the way just a fact as everyone else has already stated in their own fashion.
i'm with drakend in this..
truthfully, i kinda like mangahelpers 2/3 yrs back..
we hv more fun then..
It is like a drug dealer running to police saying someone stole their drugs.
I´ve being translatin manga about two years (and by my english, you guys can realise, I´m not from an english scanlation group...) (Irrelevant information, I know XP)
I obviously know since I started with it that tis is a hole ilegal action. The english groups don´t have de copyrights, an we neither, but I´m agree with Zidane, If we (all the scanlation groups) haven´t translated (or scanlated) a lot of manga, Most of the people would only read Naruto, bleach, an probably, One Piece also.
BUT!... the scanlation groups don´t have the moral right to ask to credit them for their work. They did it for free, they don´t have the copyrights of these mangas, the credit pages (or the mention of the "original" group) its only a mere courtesy matter. In my group, we do becouse we recognize the time they spent in it, most of the case, we even ask to the "originalk" group, but if they sai no, we give them the credit and translate anyway, becouse it´s a mere courtesy matter.
And, yes, they can stop scanlating the manga, it woul obviously be hard, but no the end of the world.. in this scanlating "world" there is a lot of "crow groups" that when some group stop of working in X manga, they re-take it (not only english groups..)
I really don´t see the difficulty of giving some credit to the english translation group, and to the japanese RAW scaner, but as I´ve being saying it´s just a matter of courtesy, and obviously a very simple rule of MH (fair or unfair, legal or ilegal, bit it´s a rule).
This is kinda like saying repealing the Alien and Sedition Acts were oppressive cause it no longer gave the government the freedom to do imprison whoever they wanted. This is like saying the First Amendment to the constitution is oppressive because it does not allow me to beat people for opposing views (boy that would be fun right about now). This is like saying international laws against genocide are oppressive because...well, now I can't commit genocide. What a grave injustice! (See? I can make wild metaphors too.)
On an unrelated note: The Society of Anti-Anarchy-Un-Freedom-Fighters(maybe) will be meeting on Saturday to discuss how to make all these wrongs in the world right. Oh yeah, and somehow bypassing the wishes of scanlation groups in order to cater to the wishes of those who don't put in as much time and effort is also on the agenda.
...Did I mention we have punch?
Just voicing some opinions, since I already mentioned that I'm in favor of crediting the scanlators, but against the prohibition of using their work when no other scanlations or RAWs are available.
MangaHelpers may have had it as a rule since 3 years ago, but an imperfect rule up till now because it wasn't enforced, so hence the reason why complaints should start now. I see no point in complaining about a rule that isn't being enforced, so that's why you didn't see people complaining before.
You aren't pirating it somewhat, you are pirating it completely... As some international scanlators seem to be pirating the English scanlators (completely or somewhat, may I ask?).Quote:
I've got a question. Would you be willing to unselfishly release to the international scanlators your raws? I mean, this could in fact solve many problems. None of the English scanlating groups release their raws when they get them. The ones that are so kind enough to do so, make them public just minutes before publishing their "cleaned" version. Now, if you made them public as soon as you get them, you would motivate every single scanlating group into cleaning their own RAWs because they would still need to wait a couple of hours for the "finished" version. You would also be helping the entire Manga community by acting in this unselfish way.Quote:
My scanlating group would in fact be very interested in this, seeing that we started recently cleaning by ourselves the RAWs, but of course, we need to wait for them to be posted in MangaHelpers because it isn't in our possibility to buy them and have someone scan them. Be sure that due credit would be given. So, we think it would be very polite and generous of you if you would be open to the idea of sharing your RAWs.
Why not be generous to the whole community, and have the "courtesy" of being open towards this? (Note, I am not sure if you already are open to giving your RAWs to other groups).
Again, the English scanlating groups motivate this because they don't make their RAWs public [of course, you have the right to not do it, as well as some International scanlators (think that they) have the right to decide whether to include or not your credit's page]. And still, though the first part of your comment is not a generalization, the second part surely is.Quote:
Hmmm, I believe you too are only seeing one side of this three-sided coin. How much damage do the international scanlators do in comparison to the good they do? (Like someone said, if an English group decides to stop scanlating a manga for whatever reasons they have, another group will surface as has happened in the past). You persist in seeing this only from the point of view of an English scanlating group, but not from the point of view of an International scanlating group. You justify the English community using Japanese manga, but won't dare to think of it from the point of view of the International Scanlators. Of course, I believe credit should be given, and am completely in favor of this, but I think that if a group denies you permission, and no other scans or raws are available, then the International Scanlating group shouldn't be prohibited from using the scans even if they are giving the corresponding credit.Quote:
So, English scanlators are allowed to "steal" the Japanese manga when it isn't available in their country... But the International scanlators aren't allowed to "steal" (Even if they give credit) from the English groups when they are the only ones that have the scans and raws... It's just this last part that I think is contradictory by itself.
There are also huge international sites that don't care if the english groups aren't being credited, and yet they too aren't being taken down for not crediting the English groups.
Would you agree that those rules include (Japanese manga publishers' rules) not scanning the manga and publishing it on the Internet... Right? And yet none of use are obeying that rule...Quote:
Well said, this definitely needed bringing up. Thanks!
Another personal attack! You have lots of topics supporting you, don't you?Quote:
Anyway what I'm isn't relevant in this discussion: we're talking about crediting the work of other scanlation groups, not if drakend is a leecher, an editor, a translator or whatever...
I can state my opinion about scanlation groups and the crediting issue without being into one of them: that's what I replied to bax. He said to set the example and giving the translations and raws for free, but I replied this isn't related in any way in order to express my opinion.Quote:
I reworded it, I hope it's more clear now...
And I said asking for giving credits is legitimate, but asking to not use your translations/raws is not.Quote:
Oh yeah, but the world isn't only mangahelpers and the net is so big... so the possibilities to copy scanlations will always be there!Quote:
It isn't relevant. I'm a person with his own ideas and I have evrey right to state that without hearing bullshit like "you have to set the example by forming a scanlation group giving out the translations". No I haven't to do this...Quote:
Anyway you can't argue with me on the arguments I moved so you're trying to attack me personally by saying I'm a leecher, I have no idea what I'm talking about and so on! Can't you do better?
Because fansub/scanlation is good free advertising for companies, but this doesn't change the fact you cannot claim copyright over something you don't have any right to begin with. That's the harsh reality...Quote:
As I stated more times: giving credit is good courtesy, denying the right to use existing translation is nonsense.Quote:
Without proof? What proof? Someone said that if I don't start a scanlation group by myself giving out translations and raws I have no right to state my opinion. Another rude dude said i'm a leecher and other personal attacks. I only replied I don't need to do any of this in order to state my opinion, because it isn't related to the current thread. That's quite simple.Quote:
It was a metaphore in order to underline the absurdity of denying the authorization in using existing scanlations.Quote:
As I've already said... giving credit is good, denying authorizations to use existing scanlations nonsense.Quote:
Yeah too bad the scanlator didn't buy the right to translate and distribute anything, so he cannot ask anything. Anyway I think giving credit for a translation is a sign of courtesy and respect for the work of others.Quote:
The staff can do whatever they like, the world doesn't finish here in mangahelpers...Quote:
Last edited by drakend; August 31, 2009 at 04:47 PM.
A few things I guess...
About raw sharing, we don't because we have a high standard of quality. We do share our raws with HQ groups such as M7 but for the most part, we don't enjoy seeing scanlations with poor quality and therefore don't feel very compelled to stimulate the process of making such scans. I'm well aware that many members of the manga community couldn't care less about quality, but we do, that's our stance and our reasoning.
Also, how is asking people not to use a translation illegitimate? That part isn't even illegal. I can translate anything I want to. I can even post a translation to anything I want to. That doesn't violate any sort of copyright law. So...yeah, there is absolutely zero hypocrisy in a translator asking people not to steal their translation, the facts are:
1) He's put in the time and effort personally, not everyone else.
2) His translation isn't illegal in any way, so in fact, the translation is his property.
We could either respect the wishes of scanlators and have manga goodness each week...
We could say "FU!" to scanlators and spend the rest of our time running around the forums arguing about things such as this. (Ever notice how these topics never come up on a Thursday or Friday? You're welcome.)
Oh, and since I have to compensate for your excessive use of smileys and my lack of them, here are a few to sum up what replying to you has been like.