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K, I shall be first to post . Hachi is a very great character and all but he cannot beat everyone or anyone just because he can make some pretty sick barriers. We know nothing of his limits and requirements for his attacks so it is not right to assume to much bout him. His Barrier bomb was very successful only because it turned Barragans own power against him. It isn't something that can be used on every character (plus I don't know where he's gonna get anymore respira ). I give Hachi a lot of credit for what he has done throughout the recent chapters and I think it is safe for me to call him captain level due to his genius and his amazing kido skills. Plus he has a zanpaktou that we have yet to see him use. For someone so humble that says he isn't much of a fighter, he sure put up an amazing fight against Barragan and I am looking forward to what he can bring to the table in the future.
Well, his Kidou skills are amazing, no doubt. But I doubt he'd be a match of a close-combat fighter, say Grimmjow or Nnoitra (Harribel perhaps).
He was the perfect match-up for Barragan since they both do fight on long range, I'd like to see Hachi fighting someone like Soifon instead That could be very interesting
Skillful captains in gotei, let's include aizen and co, too, can use pretty high level kido, with dealing great damage, even forbidden spells. So probably it's needless to say that the kido corps rock in kido, especially the top 2:Tessai and hacchi. Well, there's a reason why tessai is captain, so that's clearkill.
Aizen went away, so hacchi got a mask and tessai ran. 100 years passed so it clear that both of them improved, hacchi even said that he created tech in vizard mode,so that no entity could beat that. But let's not forget aizen he probably improved himself,too he said to a point where only improvement would be to gain hollow powers(this is arguable since he could've lied as well). Now if aizen is indeed powerful against kido as well, he has a zanpaktou which deceived everyone, has great speed strength ans most of all intelligence and raw spiritual power(this counts to if used correctly). Hacchi on another hand is good at kido on almost god level, but that's it. Aizen got barragan under his wing in just saying look at my sword, while hacchi use a mask,powerful kido and sacrificed an arm. I know power levels in bleach are inconsistent(it's how it should be), hacchi being able to defeat aizen is too much.
Also hacchi barragan fight reminded me of hitsugaya vs. harribel. Compatibility in power is a good trick in bleach to make fights last long. And even hacchi said he watched the fight...so directly moving to barragan means that barragan was the best type of enemy. IMO and many others agree that barragan lost due to his arrogance not his lack of power( I won't get in details the post is already too long).
So hacchi is not a god, he can't beat aizen, but defeated barragan with his great insight, skill and quick decision making ability. He is part of a group of vizards, who suddenly decided there were on the side of a 16 year old kid,who is a natural vizard, but lost aizen heavily and was owned by nr 4 espada even in unreleased mode.(let's not discuss ichigonator, it's not his thread)
Thanx for UR patience, i really enjoy writing much when i'm in the mood, but if i missed something pls knock URselves out
Last edited by benelori; August 30, 2009 at 05:09 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Last edited by Arrogance; August 30, 2009 at 11:50 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
The problem is you guys are ignoring canon. Hachigen has shown to be able to decapitate with barriers and transport objects into the body's of others. Last time I checked Aizen was not invulnerable and if Hachi caught him off guard like he did to Barragan it would be game over for Aizen. In a sense Hachi is capable of killing anyone with his techniques. Aizen may win because he puts people in illusions pretty fast, but Hachi can definitely kill him until some limits are shown on his abilities. The only thing saving people from Hachigen at the moment is storytelling.
I think you guys just don't wanna admit that his powers make him one of the strongest characters in Bleach. You don't wanna admit that the other vizards and captains aren't on his level because all they got is reiatsu compared to Hachigen's killing techniques and superior strategies. You really think someone like Zaraki coulda beat Barragan just by taking off his eyepatch? Nope. Hachigen was the only good guy capable of it. Therefore, he is in the top 5 atm.
You guys must be reading a different manga if you think Grimmjow or Noitara can take Hachi. Barragan released was contained even with Respira by the barriers. Unreleased Barragan has better feats than released Noitara and released Grimmjow. He was faster than Soifon, could break bones just by touching you, and could rip buildings to shreds just by grazing it with his axe. Hachi wasn't even using his mask and was keeping a much stronger Espada under wraps, if Respira was not a factor then Barragan looked stuck to me. Noitara and Grimmjow would have 0% chance against that. They just weren't that strong, that is why Zaraki made a joke out of Noitara (1 shot with 2 hands) and Grimmjow got beat by novice vizard Ichigo. They are cool characters but are nowhere near Hachi's level.
See your also not analyzing the situations enough. He decapitated Gillian...........not an espada. Gillian are frankly dumb and don't move fast enough. Plus Hachi even had enough time to make a speech to the Gillian before decapitating them which just goes to show that there was a lot of time for him to pull that off, thats not something you'd see with everyone else. As for the transportation thing, it was a great move but it has limits. A simple law of physics is that space is occupied by something, you cant transport things into something thats filled with space. Barragan was a bag of bones , He had a lot of space in his abdomen region which is what made the transportation easy. Also now your saying that if he catches Aizen off guard then he can do that but that the thing.........you need to actually catch him off guard which is like impossible, plis Aizen needs to have space large enough to fit the transported item, and Hachis barrier too. The feats you want hachi to make are very very very difficult and require overcoming so many boundaries that we have yet to see evidence of him being able to overcome. If any of these things are ever revealed and become canon then I would back you but as of now that is not the case for anything.
Aizen isn't impossible to catch off guard and canon proves you are wrong.Quote:
If he was so omnipotent I doubt Yoruichi and Soifon would get a sword pressed against his throat ready to finish him off. The fact is, they weren't in his illusion and could easily take him out. Now lets be realistic here, Hachi can attack from range while Aizen is distracted. Whether it is slapping a high level barrier on him or warping an object into him it is still going to be tough for him to counter it without illusions. Hachi may need someone to follow up but once Aizen is trapped he loses...simply surround him with captains and move in for the kill. His main trick is those illusions and always has been. Take them away and he is about two captains in reaitsu level. I really don't think that puts him much higher than another captain with a vizard mask. Even if Aizen has a mask which I suspect that does not mean he can counter everything. We all know he is going down to Ichigo in the end. The only reason Hachi won't snipe Aizen is simple storytelling in that the main character will defeat Aizen. Don't mistake the illusions for Aizen being a God. Without them...he submitted to Yoruichi and Soifon already and would get broken by Ichigonator.
In the end, Hachi will still be standing and Aizen will be crushed. So you'll have to respect Hachi's power eventually guys when Aizen is gonezo.
Last edited by Hachigeneral; August 31, 2009 at 12:04 AM.
Yay. Let the trolling begin.
Overall, nowhere in Arrogance's post did he ignore canon. When he brought up his own opinion, he supported it with canon rather than ignore it.
k, time to dissect your post.
Therefore you are wrong in assuming that everybody who is not you is a Hacchi hater. I know I like Hacchi as a character and the other posters have made it clear that they like Hacchi too.
Let's go back to that portion of your post.
My conclusion is that many of your points make sense but many of our points make sense as well. There is no evidence that any of us in the topic are "ignoring" canon--we are using it as much as you are in our arguments. So, contrary to what you asserted, none of us in the topic, you, me, them--are ignoring canon.
Also, you are attacking our opinions (whether Nnoitra or Grimmjow can beat Hacchi), whereas so far we have not. Arrogance, for example, is arguing against your opinion but in a civilized manner. We are entitled to our opinions just as much as you are. The point is not to stifle our opinions and unconditionally labeling them as false just because our opinions don't agree with your own.
Right now, I feel like you're setting a double standard: your opinion is right, but if our opinions don't match your opinions, then our opinions are wrong and ignore canon. You are allowed to attack our opinions for contradicting yours, whereas we cannot even argue against your opinions because clearly you are right and we are wrong.
Unless you can treat us the way you want us to treat you in this debate, we can't properly discuss Hacchi, his techniques, or his relative merits.
You guys are just overestimating weak characters like Grimmjow and Noitara. I know it is your opinion but I don't have to respect crazy ones like that. It isn't an opinion that unreleased Barragan is more impressive than them when they are released, it is a fact. Soifon is obviously faster than Grimmjow and Noitara yet "couldnt budge" and was slower than an unreleased Barragan. BTW, what does Grimmjow and Noitara have in their arsenal that can counter the aging process of Barragan and even land a shot? Come on, answer that one.
Here, I'll answer it for you. Nothing, they are all physical, if they fought 10/10 times Barragan would win everytime due to the aging effect...he doesn't even need a release at all. Why was Barragan the King and Noitara and Grimmjow were nobodies? Use some logic guys.
Face it, Hachi beat #2 and you guys think #5 and #6 would stand a chance. Grimmjow and Noitara have shown nothing to counter Kidou, they are all physical and ceros, and thus got no chance against a vizarded kidou master who beat #2. Comparing weak stepping stone characters for Ichigo to top tier characters like Hachigen may be funny but is pretty ridiculous. Come back to earth guys, the weather is nice here.
Even though Hachi beat Barragan, it doesn't mean he can beat Grimmjaw. The only reason Hachi won was, is because he used Barragan's own power against him. How would Hachi beat Grimmjaw, with the abilities he has shown?
Hmm...its the same thing as KOing your opponent really, you take them out of the fight. If you can't get out of his kidou its a loss. You can't fight back if he has you pinned to the ground with a forbidden Kidou. In all honesty, I think Hachi can finish his opponents but since it hasnt been shown people will argue it. But just think about this, how can his opponent defend if he has his arms bound and is pinned to the ground. Hachi can just step on your face and crush you when your in that position. Or stab you. Or have Shinji take you out if he doesn't wanna get his hands dirty.
Last edited by Hachigeneral; August 31, 2009 at 03:24 AM.
Hachigen can't trap all his opponents in a barrier, making strong barriers takes time. Of course time is not an important factor against an opponent like Barragan who was staying still while Hachigen was doing Gates of the Four Beasts, this is why Hachigen picked Barragan to fight, it's a matter of mismatch for Barragan.
Hollow Ichigo managed to destroy Bakudou 75 (five pillar brace of steel) which Hachigen made with incantation. Soifon's bankai damaged arguably strongest barrier to date. Let alone considerably weaker barriers, even strong ones can be broken with enough force.
From storytelling point of view, Kubo did nothing that might indicate Hachigen is one of the top dogs, on the contrary he made Hachigen admit he is not suited for fighting. Trying to disprove it is like trying to challenge Kubo.
I like Hachigen and everybody acknowledges his barrier skills but overrating these barriers (to the extent that every other shinigami skill including bankai is worthless) doesn't make any sense. Can Byakuya defeat everybody by simply using Bakudou 61, no, things are not that simple in Bleach.
My conclusion: Hachigen can never have enough time to create a barrier that is strong enough to hold the likes of Byakuya or stronger. Even though he traps someone, his opponent can attack the barrier and quickly destroy it. Hachigen can never match their speed, he is more like a support character who can help his friends with his excellent kidou skills. IMO this is how Kubo pictured Hachigen.
errgh I should know better than trying to get through to hachigeneral about hachi not being godmod powerful but at least if I do it here he wont polute the chapter discussion thread I guess.
Listen up-Bleach 101 is that speed is king. if Hachi had a fight with any of the following:
Aizen, yamamoto, Shunsui, Ukitake, Byakuya, Starrk, Shinji, Kensei, Ulquiorra, Ichigo to name but a few the fight will go like this.
Hachi: Hello, my name is ushoda hachigen. Tries to move his hands together to make a barrier.
[example] Shinji: *vanishes and reapperas behind hachigen*
hachi: *is slashed both front and back*-dies or is incapacitated.
Face it-the above mentioned people ater stronger than him. Strenght matters in bleach-barragan was stronger than hachi which is why he broke ALL his barriers. and that IS cannon. Hachi only won because Barragan had an ability that could be used against him. If hachi trapped starrk, starrk would most likely destroy his barriers with ceros. Thats as much conjecture as you saying he could catch Stark(who is much much faster than him) in the first place. You keep saying "if hachi draws first". Thats a very big if mate because Hachi is too slow and will never draw first against someone fast. barragan was slow and was therefore the only person Hachi could fight. If he attempted to fight Starrk, Gin or heaven forbid Aizen hed die in seconds flat. I realise you loooooove him just like I love some characters in way that sometimes defy logic, however at least I know the limitations of those characters while you clearly dont. Please stop ranting so assuredly when you have so little to back you up, because honestly I used to like hachi but now you're just spoiling him for me.
Last edited by Mifune_Taichou; August 31, 2009 at 07:03 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
I think it has something to do with range...becuz if range isn't an issue, than hacchi during his fight with barragan could'v launched surprise attacks towards all espada