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The problem I try to point out is:
We ONLY have Irene saying Teresa has this "PYSA". We've never seen Teresa using the PYSA, like we've seen of-with Clare using the PYSA.
So, it comes down to:
Is Irene correct, that Teresa has the PYSA, or is she incorrect, using this "PYSA", as an explanation of how Teresa is able to pwn everyone, due to not realizing or maybe due to being in denial (LOL) that it's simply due to Teresa being that powerful, as to why-how she is able to pwn everyone.
The problem with Irene, and only Irene, as the source....
Irene isn't that accurate... seriously, Muscular Sophia being the strongest of all of them? That's totally WRONG by Irene. So, what else has Irene said that is WRONG, as well as what has she said that is correct-right, eh?
Irene's a horrible source, as you've got to really analyze (with lots of contextual help) as to whether what she says is accurate/correct or inaccurate/in-correct...
Last edited by HegemonKhan; January 02, 2012 at 04:07 AM.
hm i think Irene not being 'reliable' is too much of a speculation maybe not but i think so
1 if you have PYSA it is rather clear you still need TOP abilities - reaction, speed, physical, everything
someone like Teresa who 100% can utilise PYSA at full potential - it must help a lot but even without that help i think she would be pwning like yesterday... as far as i know she wasnt using PYSA on Priscilla + is PYSA omnidirectional? can you use it against more enemies at once?
in short: it doesnt really matter she is a monster anyway
2 she using PYSA should be a REASON that Clare has it too!! it was that very AWESOME moment next episode after Teresa died, that anime showed us Clare fighting two normal yomas in her badassery and the great feeling i had that time was mainly due to realizing she is Teresa's 'apprentice'
i think if Teresa didnt have PYSA after all it would be lame, unfitting and just dishonesting the baseground of the whole claymore universe
Irene's "unreliable-ness" comes from the Teresa vs Priscilla debate, in analyzing their battle to the "Nth Degree", lol. We, the Teresa Supporters, have analyzed Irene as being very confused and incorrect, hypocritical and etc etc etc, confusing the hell out of poor Sophia, Noel, and us the readers, lol. Of course, the Priscilla supporters, see it very differently, with Irene *NOT* being "unreliable" (with Irene being reliable).
so, if you're interested in this stuff-debate on Irene, feel free to read through the posts in the Teresa vs Priscilla Thread, lol.
If you can't find the thread (and/or specific posts), let me know, and/or if you want my notes-posts on it-Irene, let me know too, and I can provide what you need.
nvm, I'll provide the link at the bottom of this post
the significance of whether Teresa has the PYSA or not, actually deals with how powerful Teresa is or isn't. As not everyone thinks Teresa is actually a "Monster", they think Teresa was only as good as she was, due to her PYSA, they don't feel that she had godly physical abilities, they feel she had the same abilities as other rank 1 Claymores, and it was only due to her PYSA that pushed her above and beyond other rank 1 Claymores (and the AO Rosemary). This thus ties in with whether Teresa is more powerful than Priscilla or not. As if Teresa was only good due to her PYSA, then Priscilla is superior to Teresa. Or, Teresa has the godly physical abilities + her PYSA, or my new radical proposal that Teresa doesn't have the PYSA, hehe, then it is Teresa who is superior to Priscilla.
We do have this Claymore sub-forum, for (most of) all the character stuff related threads (feel free to post !!):
Organization's Forbidden Library
and within this sub-forum, is the Teresa vs Priscilla thread (feel free to post !!):
Teresa vs Priscilla - Who is stronger
Last edited by HegemonKhan; January 04, 2012 at 01:29 AM.
you dont have to go to such lenghts for me, as to provide links.. but thx
as always we can debate over this, but in this case i will just say: teresa has it - HK, dont you think that if she didnt have it, it would be kinda counterproductive? why would Clare have PYSA then?
+ that would mean Teresa would be truly overpowered too - #1 or not, cutting down AWAKENED former #1!!! is something of disastrous proportions - that is not something ordinary #1 can do - PRROF? AO are former #1 if nonawakened #1 can deal wit awakened #1 that shows some power gap... if Teresa had this without pysa that would be too much it is possible but as im saying
my biggest reason in believing is Care i dont believe in coincidences.. also i believe it is implied enough Clare has her powers from Teresa - like when Miria saw her as someone of great strength - her powers definitely come from Teresa (who else anyway she doesnt have yoma in herself)
+ why would Irene think Teresa has PYSA if she didnt have it? where would she heared about it?
I also view that Clare's powers are her own, and not due to Teresa's flesh. Clare as a Human Child, was already a MONSTER, and quite inhuman..
1. Indestructable Body
2. Uber Perception (she saw right through all of Teresa's Defenses, seeing the real-hidden Teresa, the Teresa yearning to be "Teresa the Person-Human", not "Teresa the Goddess", not "Teresa the MONSTER", not Teresa of the Faint Smile)
3. She could follow the battle, despite the speed of the "rank 1 vs ranks 1-4" Claymores (and the Orcish Priscilla too), and even shout a warning to Teresa soon enough for Teresa to act upon it, beating out Teresa's own PYSA (assuming she has it, which I don't now, hehe).
4. She survived on her own for X amount of time, looking for a BC while holding Teresa's head, hehe.
5. She survived being the 2nd NY's "pet-toy".
6. Strangely, she's been targetted by two NYs, and especially with the 2nd NY, it didn't eat her, and using this, in looking at the 1st NY... it too might not have had interests in-with eating her when it pounced on her, but rather some other more disturbing interest... eww... as while the 2nd NY physically abused her, we can't rule out it sexually abusing her too, as often sexual abuse goes along with physical abuse. Also, during the bandits scene, Clare takes a step back in fear, as she knows what the bandits want and what Teresa is saying to them, lol.
7. Clare pretends to sleep, fooling Teresa, and ends up saving Teresa from getting raped by Rig, by whacking him with that tree branch on his head, to Teresa's shock-surprise, hard enough that blood runs down his face, hehe.
8. Clare displayed inhuman endurance-stamina, able to keep up with Teresa, which was shocking, as even an adult human in the best fitness, could not do so .... yet Clare was, and she was only a child...
9. Human Clare showed ZERO fear at the 1st NY eating her family, nor in it pouncing upon her... instead she was merely asking, ~"Neesan, why?"
10. Clare was one of those special rare "Humans" who could actually Sense the Yoki itself, and she was but a child as well.
11. She fearlessly hugged Teresa
12. She "happens" to have the name Clare, the name of one of the Goddesses of Love, along with Claymore Teresa, also having the other name of the other Goddess of Love.
I seriously am suspicious about Clare, whether she was truly human as a child... hehe.
that also then gets into whether Rubel saw her special-ness... as he likely saw the same special-ness in Priscilla... ordering the "Hit" upon Priscilla's family by the NY, and then the same "Hits" upon Clare's family, and even possibly with the 2nd NY's "abduction" of her as well. As, isn't it suspicious that "magically coincidentally" an unknown Claymore appears, saving Clare from the 1st NY ??? That of all the BCs, Clare could find, it was Rubel, whom she "found". Heck, maybe it's even possible that Orsay saw Clare's potential as well, and instead of wanting to kill Clare, he too was going to make Clare into his own Claymore, as Rubel had actually done himself within the actual story. I think the Island, has its own ancient secrets... and that is why the Org has come to the Island... as it has "special humans" who make great Claymores-Awakeneds... *grins*
Last edited by HegemonKhan; January 04, 2012 at 12:46 PM.
I' think that Teresa and Claire have the PYSA. This ability, so beauty and terrible at the same time, is the only way that Claire have to defeat priscilla.
Priscilla is owerpowered, much more than the other AO in the manga. Who will kill her? How?
Naturally, with this ability. PYSA
No one at this time can destroy priscilla. Becouse at this time, no one have this special ability that has made to the necessity of the destroy all the AO. A part from claire
This is the reason because yagi have created a monster like priscilla. Because only Clare can defeat her. More is high the power of the enemy, and more is decisive the PYSA.
Priscilla would never have killed Teresa, even after her awakened . Because Teresa was too strong and had this ability: PYSA
well if you say you believe Clare doesnt have her powers from Teresa than. Teresa having PYSA gets way more uncertain yeah
Nevertheless, i can provide counter argument for every point (just to name few most difficult):
1 stamina/no fear/etc: can be explained by Clares personality(which in fact really can explain this) - no fear can be result of a shock or something and stamina just consequence of being stubborn and tough-minded
with strong mind you can overcome limits...
2 sensing yoki: dunno when this happened but it was mentioned that humans DO sense yoki even if it is just as an uneasiness and only in presents of powerful being
3 following the battle: i dont think occasional shouting to warn Teresa immediately means she can percieve battle beyond human level, i dont think teresa reacted on Clares shouting any time during the fight - if it happened it would be absolutely ridiculous - claymores have their powers from yoma flesh (as far as we know) not because of their potential they had while being human
my point is - simplest explanation is the most probable (occam's razor) and i dont think your arguments make the situation any simpler - instead, you now require:
- clare having her powers not from Teresa = which breaks great symmetry/metaphor or whatever it was
- clare having her powers coincidentally the same as one that others FALSELY BELIEVE teresa has - considering how this manga sticks to reality this is more than unprobable
- clare being 'superhuman' is quite a lot to say too, i agree you can set the theory somehow to not oppose manga, but its far-fetched
+ she is not that strong as a claymore herself, that kinda opposes your theory, if she could sense yoki as a human or even have PYSA then, then after becoming claymore she should be breaking records of the organization
i think if at least on of those were true (teresa = no PYSA or clare = superhuman) yagi would give us a better hints maybe im just too stubborn and close-minded to more revolutionary theories but still i think i have some solid ground
---------- Post added at 09:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:05 PM ----------
--- at first we get to know that powergaps in single digits are much greater that one would expect, i very like this idea, it shows how the difference between powerful warriors is based on their true power that comes from their original potential and ability, the rest , the fodder is just trying to master their techniques so the differences are little
--- then there is #1 unfortunately claymore never states any absolute value of power, everything is so relative we can argue forever, main point remains that #1 is incredibly powerful - enough to overweight the whole power of the organization!!
in this terms im also saying that Miria is close to average #1 strenght (she was bit worse than Hysteria (which is among 8 most powerful ones) so that agrees)
--- then the power boost that awakening gives: well it surely must be great, but i am not really sure, for claymore to destroy the same-rank-awakened means either 'plothole' (which i dont wanna believe is the case) or true and BIG difference in strength or that awakening itself is not such a deal - but we have plenty of reason to believe it is a great deal
personally i believe it gives incredible boost
--- then there is priscilla
i am chaotically between thinking she IS overpowered and that she IS NOT this manga has several big power gaps and we have no reason to believe there arent few more - why couldnt there be someone noone could kill?
i dont think anyone could kill awakened Teresa either
i just reread that part of manga and Rubel clearly indicates/says that Priscilla had her whole potential awoken when she awakened - so if we take into consideration her potential of being #1 that can surpas Teresa (one of the 8 most powerful) she really might get this powerful without it being unbelievable or stupid
the fact that none can kill her doesnt mean anything + you just need to realise that any awakened #1 is unkillable she just went a little( a little too much?) further
well to be honest i didnt even persuade myself...
about PYSA being only thing that can kill her - i think storng enough oponent has always a chance, PYSA would help sure, for Clare to kill Priscilla it would be nice revenge but i dont want such an ending
1 it would look like everything is just some made-up story
2 with Priscilla being killed by something else or by group of someone - that would result in something more interesting
it is a far-fetched idea of mine, quite against the "cannon" thinking, and it would be too much effort to try to defend, laughs. So, I'll just leave it as one of my many crazy wild theories-ideas
Personally, I love Priscilla's Reigning Supremacy !!!!
finally an ALL-POWERFUL villain-antagonist, who IS all-powerful, who pwns the hero... there's no "lame magical power up for the hero to just suddenly pwn and triumph", no our Clare got "curb-stomped" pwned by Priscilla, as she should be !!! I love it, a manga that follows the reality that Priscilla is truly the "beast" that she is !!! If, you're going to have an all-powerful villain, then KEEP that villain ALL-POWERFUL !!! Priscilla pwned the AOs, as she should, Priscilla pwned our "hero" Clare, as she should, finally a non-lame manga or story, hehe. Thank you Yagi !!!
if you want a hero who magically goes from being weak and getting pwned, to getting a magical power up and pwning the villain, triumphant happily ever after... there's Bleach... or DBZ or nearly almost all mangas and/or comics, stories... etc...
No, our Clare has struggling for everything she has gained... and when she finally confronted the villain, Priscilla, she got pwned as she was suppose to be, because as great strides as she made with reason with hard work and/or struggle, it's still a far cry from our MASSIVELY powerful Priscilla. Yeah, a story-plot as it should be told !!!
A story that actually is CONSISTANT with characters' power levels !!! There's no way Clare could have become as powerful as Teresa-Priscilla, no she still has a very very long ways to go... if she even survives... with her lower body gone and dying, just prior to the Destroyer (Destroyer-Teresa) taking her "in", hehe
Clare better NOT emerge with a "magical power up" .... Oh will I be mad, as that would be so LAME... and non-Claymore, non-Yagi !!!! It would be far to "Bleach-Ichigo" like for me... V.V
Last edited by HegemonKhan; January 04, 2012 at 06:31 PM.
---------- Post added at 12:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:18 PM ----------
i think that even if clare uses her full potential+emotions/will for revenge+help of techniqes from others this alone should be NOTHING compared to Priscilla
Priscilla>>>normal AO normal AO=former normal#1
Clare getting on #1 level is impressive feat on itself and i think she should stop somewhere like that - average #1 strength anything more would be more and more 'pushed' and felt artificial
true, every claymore started as a human and as a being with some potential and there is no reason why Clare couldnt have had this potential greater than someone else, + to have greatest potential of all is nothing weird for protagonist but in claymore that wouldnt feel right
---------- Post added at 12:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:19 PM ----------
in fact her partial awakening can be viewed as this a little bit, it comes when needed, saves the day etc.. but
im so eager to find out how wil temporary awakenings play out will that be possible? how much of an power boost will they provide? etc
if Miria awakens in chp123 i will be disappointed by 'cheap' story - it really looks like it is set up that way right now, but the fact is i WANNA see it happen
Last edited by spit; January 05, 2012 at 06:31 AM.
OK, firstly it's not that simple. If it was the case boxers or fencers could defend indefinitely even if they were slower than their opponents. You can also see that while playing "paws". Even despite the fact that the attacker must flip his hands before he attacks (rotate them 180 degrees) he's usually at an advantage because he attacks first. If I sparred with someone slower than me and told him exactly were I would hit in the next 10 blows he would still be hit, because even though he could evade the first blow with my every next move he would have less time to react because of the gap in our speed. (It's like with a rabbit and a turtle. No matter how much of a distance advantage the turtle would have, after enough time he would be outrun by a rabbit assuming they could run indefinitely.)
If someone attacked me and I would be faster, because I would be faster I could dodge and hit him at the same time. So if I could hit at the avg. speed of 20m/s and my opponent could react at the speed of 15 m/s and the distance between me and him would be one meter (1m) I would hit him in about 1/20 of a second so he would have to dodge+block it before I started the move (you can't dodge in 1/20th of a second) but what about the second blow? Sure, he could at the same time try to attack me but it would end at best with a double hit (and Teresa was never hit once she released youki, overall she was hit once). If I was indeed faster I could dodge it and at the same time launch another attack at the speed of 20 m/s and he wouldn't have bonus time then. Even though you would know where I would hit and even WHEN, I would hit you if you reacted too soon, my speed advantage would allow me to adjust my move a bit and the timing would be different and although you would receive this information you wouldn't be fast enough to change your move because of our speed difference.
Also, it's one thing to dodge+parry hits and just parry hits. Especially in sword fighting. Parrying without dodging and exchanging every single move would be impossible if you weren't faster. Somehow Teresa was never hit after she released her youki. And notice that while the time gap (time advantage) would be getting shorter, the distance would be rather constant (assuming fencers wouldn't move and from what we've seen in the room Teresa and Clare were staying at they weren't moving when they were exchanging blows). So the longer the fight would last the worse would Teresa's situation would be.
As for your calculations, you didn't need to divide 1/88.408 when you've chosen such easy numbers, all you had to do was to divide the time by 2 since the distance was 2 times shorter. But that's only if you would be using the equations you've used. Using the equation when the speed is constant isn't even close to the real thing, even using equations where acceleration is constant wouldn't be accurate (although it would be closer to the truth).
But anyway, your numbers don't add up for another reason. Teresa's and Irene's positions were symmetrical and it's not true that Irene's strike had to travel 2 m while Teresa's 1 m. The picture below is self-evident:
This equation is also unnecessary. Since Irene needs 0.022 s to reach Teresa, Teresa has exactly 0.022 s to react. But that's not entirely true because at this time Irene's sword would be 0 m away from Teresa. And BTW, if Irene was swinging her sword with the speed of 90 m/s and Teresa with the speed of 45 m/s in the same time Irene would be making 2/3 of the sum of the distance they would be making. So if they were 1 m apart then Irene would reach about 0,66 m while Teresa about 0,33 m. If that would continue and Irene would be getting closer Teresa would have it harder to parry and it would affect her more than Irene (at some point Teresa would be able to barely move her sword while Irene's move could be twice as big). In addition, the faster Irene could make a swing the faster she could retract it or change it's position in other way so this whole thing is not as simple as you may think. Before Teresa could retract her arm (or move sideways), since she would be 2 times slower Irene would already be attacking her. That's my main point, Irene because of her speed advantage could change her position faster than Teresa could and the previous distance (of 2 m Irene, 1 m Teresa) would be kept no longer.
Never said otherwise, however once the swords clash it's Irene that has the advantage (assuming she's faster) since they're at the same distance at this time, the advantage 2 m Irene, 1 m Teresa is no longer.Quote:
She could, assuming that Irene would attack the same spot which is unlikely.Quote:
Now, taking into account PYS, I'll try explaining my reasoning by taking as an example Teresa's fight with Priscilla:
Haven't read the raw yet. But based on the Chinese scan, what Clare call Rafaela's technique does not seem to be youki detection or perception at all. Teresa's youki perception already does what is described here without the need to expand any youki sphere. In Slasher's arc, when Clare was concentrating on using PYS, she is already not using her eyes but her youki detection only. Teresa's PYS is superior because it does not require "spread youki field". The only advantage I can think of is Rafaela's technique is purely creating a sphere with a thin layer of youki and detect any disturbance at the boundary of the sphere and thus react accordingly. In certain circumstances, this has advantages, such as against completed cloaked opponents or for whatever reason youki reading can not be performed. But in most other cases, PYS is a better technique to use. I don't see this as much of a power up for Clare.
Last edited by SagaraSouske; October 01, 2012 at 06:36 PM.
The thing is Rafaela had been suppressing her own yoki and was very much cloaked, so I don't think that thin layer of yoki around herself in a field or sphere is released yoki at all. I am thinking along the line that Rafaela expand or spread out her sense of her own yoki, much like blowing a balloon, the balloon is expanding its area around itself, air is not leak out , in her case her yoki is not leak out while the field of her own yoki is expanded around herself.
Last edited by God Eye Galatea; October 01, 2012 at 07:38 PM.