the fight is pointless because Shunsui beat Stark and is proven stronger
Keep in mind a majority of that fight wasn't a fight, it was beating down a defeated opponant. Both Lanza and CO were ranged, his original lance was thrown, and there was only one instance the entire fight in which he was the one to get closer, which was when he first released and rushed him, and immediately after that he threw the thing, let Ichigo use Getsuuga, and then used CO and pretty much won. His 'mostly hand to hand' parts were not, remotely, a fight, they were beating down a defeated opponant. When Ichigo was actually a threat he was specifically keeping his distance until he instead was rushed.Quote:
- It's not like Uqluiorra tried to increase the distance like Starrk did. He threw his swords when he was at a distance and he used them as close range weapons when he got in close.
- Either way Ulquiorra is adept at close range combat. With his reiastu, speed and destructive power I don't see Shunsui winning this fight. I got the impression that Ulquiorra was extremely strong when he cancelled out Perfect Hollow form Ichigo's cero.
In theory, Kyouraku should win since he defeated the first esapda. But the author misleads us into thinking Ulquiorra is stronger than the top 3 because of the second release stage and having him easily beat ichigo with his vizard mask activated. I'm not saying Ulquiorra is stronger than stark but the way his power is portrayed during his fight with ichigo is grossly misleading.
I have a hard time saying who would win but I blame the author for that mostly. I don't think Kyouraku has the raw power that was used by ichigo's hollow form to take down Ulquiorra...but he was able to beat the first espada without a Bankai? You wouldn't need more than a bankai + vizard mask to fight on an equal ground with stark but you clearly need more than that to fight with Ulquiorra in his second release form. Kyouraku loses because the author constantly screws with the power rankings.
If fans think Ulquiorra is the strongest Espada it's only because the author portrays him that way. Think about it the amount of power it took to kill him...yet the other espada were destroyed with considerably less effort/power. Assuming Bankai + Vizard mask wasn't enough to kill the 4th espada I don't see how any captain really stands much of a chance. Stark has the top rank but can be killed with less effort/power needed to kill the 4th rank? *face palm*
Last edited by Conan26; June 15, 2010 at 01:54 PM.
As for Yammy, I don't see him beating any of the Espadas before GJ and his little zero marking is pretty crappy as he seems to completely fail. It just shakes my belief in the rankings even further. Unless he pulls another transformation, this time something other than a mountain of flesh for the duo to dull their swords with, I'll keep him out the picture as the big player.
The problem I see for shunsui here is that ulquiorra might be more adept at close quarter combat than starrk was. His abilities work way better in close combat and most of their applications where actually there-except for the lanza explosion-. In that sense, starrk most likely had an edge over resurreccion ulquiorra when using his cero guns or wolves but that does not mean starrk was better than ulquiorra in melee combat. Not to mention ulquiorra had HSR which means small wounds ultimately do not deal damage and large wounds would at least slow him down considerably less than what they would other people. Not to mention ulquiorra is also a very analitical fighter, I don't think he'd have that much trouble figuring out the games. Then there is also segunda etapa which the manga implied was stupidly powerful considering everything.
No, I'm not basing it solely on that fact. Ulquiorra's a ranged fighter because his single unique technique, the Lanza, has a high probability of screwing him over if he uses it close range. He outright says that he doesn't want to use it at close range. All the techniques he used at all, from both lances to CO, were range capable and quite simply easier to hit or far wiser to hit from a range regardless. When your entire main arsenal is ranged techs, by virtue of how it works or in the Lanza's case the best way for it to work, you are a ranged fighter. Because, like Ulquiorra, their offensive potential and likelihood to win is best when they are at range in most cases.Quote:
Lanza was used as a sword here:
I do agree though, Ulquiorra's strengths are at range. He has the close range capabilities that one would expect from any arrancar or shinigami (can use a sword, can grab opponents, can use speed to advantage, etc.), but his unique abilities (a strong cero, lanza de relampago) are predominantly ranged. Yes, cero can be used at close range, tough to aim unless you're grabbing the opponent like Ulquiorra did with Ichigo. Lanza can also be used at close range as a sword, or as a nuke that would damage Ulquiorra as well.
Can Ulquiorra beat Shunsui? Or would Shunsui be far stronger than Ulquiorra?
Can't really say at this point. I mean, Ulquiorra's reiatsu type was so overwhelming to the point where Uryuu explained how his reiatsu was different from anything he's ever felt before. He said it's not just greater and covers wider range of area, but it's so dense and thick to the point where it feels like there's an ocean above him. Uryuu felt the reiatsu of Byakuya's bankai form and Tosen's shikai (briefly for Tosen's.).
That means Ulquiorra's reiatsu would be much greater than a mid-tier captain. Since no one can really argue how Byakuya can really be any less or more than just mid-tier captain, at this point around.
Aizen said with enough reiatsu output, one can completely nullify his or her opponents abilities. That means Ulquiorra possibly could nullify Shunsui's shikai abilities.
The problem is that Bankai allows his reiatsu to be expanded several times greater than his normal reiatsu output, when he's engaged in a combat. & We haven't even seen him pulling off bankai, as of now.
So, I really can't say. Personally, I am leaning more to Shunsui than Ulquiorra. Since I kinda like him better than Ulquiorra, ever since I've seen his zanpakuto abilities. Though, it's really upto Kubo to provide us with more info., then we can properly judge later on, I think.
Last edited by igotthegoods; June 17, 2010 at 11:05 AM. Reason: off-topic
I thought we were sharing our thoughts about a Shunsui Kyouraku vs Ulquiorra Cifer match-up. Where did Barragan come up at all?
Changing form doesn't change the fact that his intelligence remains the same. Having power and having the brains to manipulate that power matter in my opinion. I haven't seen him do anything to write home about except throw punches, grow, cero/bala and get smacked around. He's basically been the arrancar water-boy from the moment he appeared.
"I'm the strongest Espada!!!" *gets his foot chopped off*
"I'm still the strongest maggots!!!!" *gets his fingers chopped off*
"I'm still...." *gets slashed across the face*
Last edited by Conan26; June 16, 2010 at 11:02 AM.
I couldn't decide, actually. But, if I could have a say in this, which would be most likely a hypothesis at best, I think Ulquiorra may be able to win, as of now.
Though, I had been "intoxicated" by Shunsui's shikai, the thing that most impressed me was Ulquiorra's reiatsu level skyrocketing to the point where it would be described as an ocean. With that kind of reiatsu, he was able to pull off the technique, which towered Las Noches, in terms of height....three times. (His reiatsu depleted as quickly, as he had to use regeneration, I am fairly sure.)
I think there's a fairly good chance that he could nullify Shunsui's shikai abilities. If Shunsui invokes his bankai, before we get info. concerning Ulquiorra's past and who he was....I think I might change my vote, depending on how capable his bankai would be. I mean, even his long-time-friend, Juushiro commented that his bankai should not be used in public....I think it's due to its destructiveness.
People actually doubt that SE made Ulquiorra stronger the R1?!
SE serves absolutely no purpose if it does not...the reason he revealed the form to Ichigo in the fist place, was to show that the gap between them could get even larger than it already was, and make Ichigo lose all hope.
The gap between the top 3 in power was small
and since Ulquiorra is in their tier...then the gap between Ulquiorra and Starrk is also, most likely, relatively small.
Throw the ambiguous S.E. and Ulquiorra could easily overpower Starrk.
So it is not some stupid fanboy argument to say that Ulquiorra was the strongest...it's actually a very logical statement, so either come up with a good argument in defense or shut up and deal.
I think Ulquiorra is smart enough to challenge Shunsui at his games.
I also believe that he has the skills to best Shunsui in straight combat.
However, with no knowledge of Shunsui's bankai, I cannot make a real conclusion.
Shunsui managed to dodge Stark's instantaneous cero shots, there's no way Ulquiorra's CO or LDR would catch him. Was Ulquiorra a better and faster swordsman than Stark? I doubt it. So when Shunsui activates the color game and doesn't bother to explain the rules, Ulquiorra dies long before he figures out what's going on. Shunsui says "Black" and attacks Ulquiorra, Ulquiorra tries to cut Shunsui, fails, Shunsui takes off his haori and cuts Ulquiorra, game over. Ulquiorra has little chance against Shunsui's shikai and let's see what OP says:
^I've been saying this the whole time. Shunsui can go ahead and throw off his pink kimono and captain haori and call Irooni- BLACK, and end Ulquiorra's life in that instant, without Ulquiorra even knowing. He could have done it to Starrk. He was only being 'fair' by giving Starrk a turn.