the fight is pointless because Shunsui beat Stark and is proven stronger
I take it too literally? Of course I do, otherwise I am just ignoring what the manga specifically said. We don't have any reason to think shunsui was not perfectly serious when he said that.
Starrk was never actually shown charging his guns though. He simply fired them as he needed. Even when he used cero metralleta he was not actually shown charging. Even if starrk had to charge there should have been nothing to stop him from firing his guns the regular way against shunsui.
He was dodging the ceros to some degree but how long until he gets hit? Starrk was at a comfortable range from shunsui and had been perfectly able to dodge shunsui's sword slashes up until that point. One way or the other it was starrk who did the attacking and shunsui who did the dodging at least which is a clear advantage for starrk.
Why wouldn't shunsui go for the kill when he attacked starrk while he was distracted with love and rose? Are we assuming he didn't hit starrk with everything he had at the perfect change to get him? It was an actual stab to the chest, that is not something we just dismiss as a potential killing blow. Since starrk was not dead from that shunsui simply followed through with his color game.
What does the shadow game have to do with the other stuff starrk avoided? The shadow game was a sneak attack dealt when starrk was going to attack love and rose. When he was fighting shunsui directly starrk avoided everything shunsui threw at him flawlessly. He dodged shunsui's sword, he was not hit when shunsui used his hat to block starrk's vision and he avoided both games shunsui used at the time (bushoguma was not good enough a distraction for shunsui to reach starrk with takaoni in the end). Shunsui alone never did anything to starrk until he managed the shadow game sneak attack. Granted, shunsui did avoid the ceros however shunsui was without a doubt the one on the run (until ukitake interfered) and nothing we actually saw suggested shunsui had the means to deal with the wolves any differently than what love and rose did. Shunsui cutting starrk with the color game was ultimately the direct result of love and rose fighting starrk.
What double negative have I used? What are you talking about? On another note, you are taking stuff I am saying out of context.
This doesn't even make sense, I don't even know how to respond to that. In particular the bold part, I am not sure what you are responding to with that. I said shunsui's forte was close range combat but so what? That much is overwhelmingly obvious considering shunsui never displayed any ranged offensive abilities at all (unless bushoguma counts as offensive however I doubt it given that nothing about it seems to have been meant to cause damage).Quote:
Going back 3 posts you could see the discussion is about whether shunsui would defeat ulquiorra with just shikai or whether he would need bankai. I am simply making the point that shunsui did not solo starrk (since love and rose took care of starrk's guns and had to deal with the wolves) and that ulquiorra would be a stronger melee fighter than starrk.
They didn't 'take care of Starrk's guns'. Why do you keep preaching fallacies? Starrk basically got bored of fighting Love and Rose. Their masks weren't enough. Their team up wasn't enough. They weren't enough, period. They didn't force him to use the wolves. The wolves WERE THE GUNS! They were him and Lillynette! What's hard to understand about that? Starrk said so himself that they were. The funny part is, Starrk was bored and didn't want to fight because his 'friends' were done and defeated. Lillynette was the one that told Starrk to use his true ability. So how did they take care of the guns when he was brushing off their attacks? http://www.mangahere.com/manga/bleach/v43/c372/9.html shows Love realizing he was basically giving in, but Love read it wrong in how he was affected by Barragan's death. You know Shunsui already deduced the guns "could do more than fire cero". Starrk said he was wrong but Shunsui replied he was a bad liar. http://www.mangahere.com/manga/bleach/v42/c362/12.html
You think he got lucky against Starrk obviously. Which is just wrong. He meant to kill Starrk with his initial attack before Starrk ever showed the wolves, that's when he threw the his hat but Starrk dodged just in time. He didn't intend to kill him (neither did Kubo) when he played Kageoni, that's why he told him the rules of takaoni and kageoni. You think he was scared to face Starrk and his wolves? The reason he attacked there is because it fit his kageoni and because his old peers were about to be finished off by Starrk. You say what does it have to do with the other attacks he avoided? He only avoided those attacks because Shunsui wasn't in the mood like his swords reflected. That's why he says "I wasn't hiding it, my sword wasn't in the mood." Then Starrk flies up and Shunsui cuts his arm. What happened? I thought Starrk could dodge his attacks? Didn't dodge that one, and Shunsui even says that he planned to give him hints. Shunsui soloed Starrk. No one else did anything to him. The attacks Love and Rose connected did nothing. If anything he was bored with them and didn't feel like fighting. He beat Starrk in shikai with two games. There's nothing to suggest Ulquiorra would fare any better. Besides the fact that he's not as strong, he's riddled with only two colors, black and white which Shunsui could utilize to kill him in one strike just like this. No regeneration would be enough to save you from getting sliced almost in half. Isn't that the same way hollow Ichigo killed Ulquiorra? Yeah, I think so.
How is it a fallacy that love dealt with the guns? Starrk literally fired ceros at love and they plainly didn't work as love simply blocked them. Winning with the guns was basically never an option. Starrk even outright stated the guns would not hurt either of them and that the wolves were more powerful than the cero starrk was firing.
And starrk wasn't lying about the guns only firing cero. Thats the only thing starrk ever did with them, when he used the wolves the guns were no longer there. Even if the guns were the wolves or whatever else it doesn't change the fact that they were ineffective.
I never said shunsui was scared of the wolves, just that he never had to deal with them and nothing shunsui showed with shikai suggests he could deal with them. I mean, what could shunsui's shikai do to the wolves that love or rose didn't do? The things were intangible torpedoes. Slashing them would not have phased the wolves. Playing the games would not have done much difference against 100 exploding wolves.
When did the manga say shunsui wasn't in the mood? The manga states katen kyokotsu was not in the mood which makes sense because zampakuto have their own personalities and wills which can have an effect on battle (just look at kenpachi, zangetsu made the point that kenpachi and his sword were hurting each other during their fight). If it was shunsui who was not in the mood then his comment about being pushed around is incoherent (and perhaps actual evidence that shunsui gets high on acid before fights) as his zampakuto wouldn't be doing anything which even remotely qualifies as pushing shunsui around. Getting pushed around by his zampakuto has the direct implication that katen kyokotsu is in fact doing something over which shunsui has limited or no control over.
I said starrk avoided everything shunsui could throw at him while he fought alone, at least that was the point I tried to make and that much is fact. I said that shunsui only got a hit on starrk when he caught him off guard and managed to keep the fight in close range (and that happened because of love and rose). I didn't say shunsui never in the entire fight got a single hit as that would not make sense since shunsui was indeed the one who dealt the death blow. Rose and love were hardly defeated though, as far as we know they still had bankai (which shunsui said to ukitake he was about to use too).
Ulquiorra simply has a different forte from starrk. Starrk was obviously a ranged fighter and was more comfortable fighting at long distances (evidenced by his use of wolves and cero spamming). Heck, starrk did not even seem to get a significant boost in speed or strength when released. We even saw shunsui keeping up with starrk in both of this forms in terms of speed (otherwise there is no way his games would have worked against released starrk). Even if starrk was faster than ichigo it does not change that ulquiorra went from being outclassed by masked ichigo in his sealed form while in resurreccion his speed increased to the point that ichigo could not even hold his ground. Basically the physical boost ulquiorra got seems a decent bit greater than the physical boost starrk got and that does not even consider what sort of boost ulquiorra got from his second stage of release. True, shunsui's game can cause a similar wound to the one that hollow ichigo caused to defeat ulquiorra.... however the fact is that ulquiorra died long after that and even in his half dead form had the power to use lanza which as far as we saw had more than a decent bit of power. As far as we saw fighting ulquiorra in close range is different from fighting starrk in close range for a number of things. Espada ranks signify a difference in reiatsu, not that any one espada is actually the strongest at everything, the rank does not consider the strengths a espada might have in any given area of combat nor having a higher rank means you are objectively better in every conceivable area to someone else.
None of what Shunsui showed could harm Ulquiorra thanks to his regeneration... What killed Ulquiorra wasn't a simple slash from Ichigonator, but a goddamn Cero that desintegrated half of his body along with the organs... Losing an arm, a leg, that's nothing to Ulquiorra, also he's better in close range compared to Starkk, Shunsui with Shikai... I can't see him win
Last edited by Zehahaha; November 22, 2012 at 01:35 PM.
The idea of Shunsui taking on Stark by himself with his shikai according to the fans is laugable to say the least. It doesn't make sense at all because Shunsui himself was going bankai because Stark pushed him to the point where he had to use it (& this was with pure ceros).
Also the idea of Ulq remaining the 4th espada is rank in terms of power was instantly dismissed the moment Kubo comfirmed they were ranked by Aizen according to who had the more reiatsu. It was further dismissed when we find out that Yammy was the 0 espada.
Ulq is the strongest espada for one simple reason. He was made relevant to hype up Ichigo's inner power.
Since we know the rank was based on reiatsu (& not skill or control), he by far also had the most control & potent reiatsu out of all the espada.
In fact he shown to be better skilled than all of them in the basic espada movesets.
One does not simple brush off a hype of this magnitude http://www.mangapanda.com/94-802-8/b...apter-348.html http://www.mangapanda.com/94-802-9/b...apter-348.html http://www.mangapanda.com/94-802-10/...apter-348.html http://www.mangapanda.com/94-802-11/...apter-348.html
For all we know, when Aizen was ranking the espada, Ulq may have suppressed his reiatsu in the unleashed & releashed state, preventing Aizen from making a clear Jugdement. If also fits Ulq's character (past) to do so.
Ichigo gave him a full powered GT right at Ulq face & Ulq (first releash) received no damage at all.
For Shunsui to compete against Ulq, he's gonna need bankai.
To imply he could do it without shikai, is almost as laughable as Yama being able to defeat Hogyoku Aizen.
Well, ranking the espada according to reiatsu makes overall sense and in general terms would have indeed the espada's relative strength. I do believe the ranks apply among the espada however as far as the manga showed it does not seem like aizen considered ulquiorra's segunda etapa which as a matter of fact substantially increased his reiatsu to a point where ishida had trouble believing it even was reiatsu at all. No other espada ever showed something like that. The way I see it ulquiorra having segunda etapa is basically ulquiorra having an equivalent to bankai. In this case we would see a resurreccion equivalent to shikai going up against the resurreccion equivalent of bankai.
So when Starrks guns turned into the wolves (which they did since they were Lillynette) that doesn't qualify as "doing more than firing cero"? lol, I'm done with this argument, you obviously read a different manga or you just can't admit when you're wrong.
Oh, and Ulquiorra admitted that there were 3 espada STRONGER than him. Starrk made Ulquiorra look 'slow'. He took Orihime for a ride that Ichigo couldn't even fathom. Since there's no indication he teleported, I'd call that a major sonido, one that Ulquiorra never matched.
Last edited by freshseth83; November 27, 2012 at 03:49 AM.